Open minded discussion: paid access the pros and cons

[hal53]

Originally Posted by RZR

No not at all, my point is every year I watch the neighbors doing it. "Awe John won't mind" it happens all the time, but yet people are complaining about how many people trespass and you all call that poaching and the average joe gets blamed for it. Just putting that out there!

To me poaching is taking an animal outside of the laws that have been implemented. One of the laws in Alberta is you must have permission to access private land, whether or not the land is posted is irrelevant. Trespassing would be prima facie evidence of poaching in hunting season, would it not?

[alpineguy]

My point of view is that the biggest problem with a certain percentage of society today is self entitlement. Some seem to believe they have the right to access lands to hunt that are maintained and owned by others. Someone living in an apartment in a town or city would be considered crazy if they were to decide they wanted to have a backyard BBQ so they just walked into someone's yard and proceeded to enjoy themselves. Clearly this would be considered trespassing yet some believe they should have the right to access privately held lands to hunt.
Whether or not a landowner grants access is totally up to them and will be based on their set of beliefs and past experiences. If someone does not believe in hunting that is their choice. Differing beliefs and interests are what make the world function. Problems occur when some try to force their beliefs on others with different ones.
As to whether or not paid access should be allowed, I for one, am not in favor. It creates an elitist hunting community and would also create a disproportional amount of hunting pressure across game bearing lands.
I hunt crown lands almost exclusively yet I live in the country and would be able to gain private access easily. I completely understand that we also need those to hunt private land so as to control game numbers in those areas as well.
Additionally, game numbers are still controllable even if all private lands are not accessible. If certain land owners do not allow hunting and their property become a refuge, that's OK with me.
Some have complained about the Suffield cull as not being as it was initially and certain participants not being successful. What has happened there is that as numbers are reduced and the elk have seen pressure the experience has actually turned into more of a hunt than a cull. It requires effort and skill to be successful at hunting and that is the bottom line. Luck also comes into play as well but over the long haul skill will win out.
Reporting poachers and trespassers will help greatly. As in most cases it is a few that ruin it for the majority.
In stead of a gift, maybe offer to fix a broken fence wire or gate. Showing interest in the state of the property will go a long ways with an owner.

Leave things as they are and "Show Respect" to private lands and the owners.......I can guarantee access will be much easier to gain.

Just my 2 cents

[buschy03]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

Nothing more needs to be said than this right here. Theres not one justifiable place on earth where this theory hasnt been proven true. End of story.

I am all for it,, you want to play, you pay.... can't afford it, take up another hobby, pretty simple..

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by buschy03

I am all for it,, you want to play, you pay.... can't afford it, take up another hobby, pretty simple..

This might be the bonehead AO post of the year right here

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by RZR

You people all think landowners are Saints, they are no different than anybody else. Let's pay them to access land. My point is some of them aren't on the up and up, but let's reward all of them.

Re-read my post there eh!

Some do and some don't....

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by RZR

No not at all, my point is every year I watch the neighbors doing it. "Awe John won't mind" it happens all the time, but yet people are complaining about how many people trespass and you all call that poaching and the average joe gets blamed for it. Just putting that out there!

You watch your neighbours tresspassing? Joe won't mind? Well you as a good neighbour should call Joe, maybe he will mind....tresspassing, poaching is what criminals do...watching this take place and not doing nothing about it is just as bad...just putting that out there.

[Pikebreath]

Paid access would certainly be the end of free access on a lot of private land in Alberta. Would it be the end of hunting? That hasn't proved to be the case in other jurisdictions. Our neighbour to the south of us, Montana, still has its share of average joe hunters as does Manitoba.

Most jurisdictions in North America allow paid access,,, Alberta and Sask which do not allow paid access are in the minority. Yet somehow, across the American heartland and other states with large rural areas, we see higher numbers of hunters per capita than we do here.

An interesting parallel is golf,,, has the fact golf courses charge daily green fees and annual membership fees killed the sport of golf here? Hardly, in fact every year we see new golf courses being built to cash in on some of that demand.

Personally having hunted for 50 years in Alberta now, 99% of that on private land, I do not wish to see the see the current system of access change as I like the ability to follow the game around rather than wait for the game to come to me (which is what happens if you become restricted to only hunting your lease).

However if current trends continue where access to private lands becomes more and more difficult to get as more property gets "taken off the market" (no hunting at all or hunting only by the owner and his friends), hunting will be extremely elitist as only those who have or can afford to buy property (and those with connections to landowners) will have places to hunt.

Under that kind of scenario, allowing a system of paid access where the landowner has incentive to allow hunting has the potential to open more properties to hunting,,,, kind of like more golf courses being built every year to meet the demand for places to golf!!!

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Knotter

Payment for access incentivizes and rewards the wrong things in hunting. it monetizes and reduces the relationship hunters have with the landowner to a matter of contract and bid. My hunt for game becomes a hunt for cash.

Picture it now. Auctions, bidding on inches of horn, high fences and eventually... lawsuits. With that comes a sense of entitlement and not a sense of revelry for the most important part of this equation - the animal. Commoditizing the land does the same to the game. Doing so cheapens the undertaking to something I don't recognize. If I must buy the opportunity in this manner... I would rather buy the meat from a grocery. Call me what you want, on the high horse, sanctimonious etc but I think there is a better way.

We, as a whole, need to get better at building a relationship with the landowner. Without monetizing that relationship... Eye to eye, belly to belly and kind hand to kind hand - nothing in the middle. You are going onto someones property and place of business. Most of these people earn a livelihood on that land an no amount of money buys respect to that order. The currency is something else. Trust.

^^^ X'S 2

The hand shake was the bond of ones word in those days gone by,,, I only hope that this remains in years to come.

My gramps always said.
"Ones word is golden, with out that,,, then we have nothing."

Don

[boah]

Originally Posted by bobalong

You live in the city don't you?

LOL, I don't know what that would have to do with anything in this case.
I'm not naïve enough to think a simple sign keeps trespassers out. Ignorance is bliss.

[ResidentSpokesman]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

Paid access would certainly be the end of free access on a lot of private land in Alberta. Would it be the end of hunting? That hasn't proved to be the case in other jurisdictions. Our neighbour to the south of us, Montana, still has its share of average joe hunters as does Manitoba.

Most jurisdictions in North America allow paid access,,, Alberta and Sask which do not allow paid access are in the minority. Yet somehow, across the American heartland and other states with large rural areas, we see higher numbers of hunters per capita than we do here.

An interesting parallel is golf,,, has the fact golf courses charge daily green fees and annual membership fees killed the sport of golf here? Hardly, in fact every year we see new golf courses being built to cash in on some of that demand.

Personally having hunted for 50 years in Alberta now, 99% of that on private land, I do not wish to see the see the current system of access change as I like the ability to follow the game around rather than wait for the game to come to me (which is what happens if you become restricted to only hunting your lease).

However if current trends continue where access to private lands becomes more and more difficult to get as more property gets "taken off the market" (no hunting at all or hunting only by the owner and his friends), hunting will be extremely elitist as only those who have or can afford to buy property (and those with connections to landowners) will have places to hunt.

Under that kind of scenario, allowing a system of paid access where the landowner has incentive to allow hunting has the potential to open more properties to hunting,,,, kind of like more golf courses being built every year to meet the demand for places to golf!!!

If golf wasn’t ridiculously expensive I would definitely golf a lot more. And I would take my kids golfing. But I don’t because golf has become more of an elitist sport. It can be done cheaply but the nicer courses etc are ridiculously priced.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by alpineguy

My point of view is that the biggest problem with a certain percentage of society today is self entitlement. Some seem to believe they have the right to access lands to hunt that are maintained and owned by others. Someone living in an apartment in a town or city would be considered crazy if they were to decide they wanted to have a backyard BBQ so they just walked into someone's yard and proceeded to enjoy themselves. Clearly this would be considered trespassing yet some believe they should have the right to access privately held lands to hunt.
Whether or not a landowner grants access is totally up to them and will be based on their set of beliefs and past experiences. If someone does not believe in hunting that is their choice. Differing beliefs and interests are what make the world function. Problems occur when some try to force their beliefs on others with different ones.
As to whether or not paid access should be allowed, I for one, am not in favor. It creates an elitist hunting community and would also create a disproportional amount of hunting pressure across game bearing lands.
I hunt crown lands almost exclusively yet I live in the country and would be able to gain private access easily. I completely understand that we also need those to hunt private land so as to control game numbers in those areas as well.
Additionally, game numbers are still controllable even if all private lands are not accessible. If certain land owners do not allow hunting and their property become a refuge, that's OK with me.
Some have complained about the Suffield cull as not being as it was initially and certain participants not being successful. What has happened there is that as numbers are reduced and the elk have seen pressure the experience has actually turned into more of a hunt than a cull. It requires effort and skill to be successful at hunting and that is the bottom line. Luck also comes into play as well but over the long haul skill will win out.
Reporting poachers and trespassers will help greatly. As in most cases it is a few that ruin it for the majority.
In stead of a gift, maybe offer to fix a broken fence wire or gate. Showing interest in the state of the property will go a long ways with an owner.

Leave things as they are and "Show Respect" to private lands and the owners.......I can guarantee access will be much easier to gain.

Just my 2 cents

There was much much more trespassing 25 years ago than there is today.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by ResidentSpokesman

If golf wasn’t ridiculously expensive I would definitely golf a lot more. And I would take my kids golfing. But I don’t because golf has become more of an elitist sport. It can be done cheaply but the nicer courses etc are ridiculously priced.

How much golfing would you be able to do, if you had to buy the golf course to go golfing?

Our current system of land access could head towards that scenario where only those with property and their cronies get to hunt,,, that would be far more expensive and elitist than a play for pay system.

Hopefully,,, we never get to that in my lifetime,,, but I can see it eventually happening as our population grows and access to private land gets harder and harder to get.

[Norwest Alta]

Good post Pike. I myself don't see things being much different in terms of access. I think friends and family will have much the same access as before. The out of towners might have to pay for access to be able to hunt on land where previously access might have been denied but they'll still get to hunt.

In my immediate area paid access for the purpose of hunting would not be lucrative so if any access is to be paid for I would imagine it would be cheap. Lol. The reason I say this we don't have landowners owning a large land base. Lots of private land with lots of landowners. By large land base I'm talking a couple sections in one piece.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by ResidentSpokesman

Not sure if you can legally charge for access to fish. I’ve never encountered that. Off to Google I go...

There's a place just east of Calgary that does so and I think another place is called Chief Hector lake out on the res west of town.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by boah

LOL, I don't know what that would have to do with anything in this case.
I'm not naïve enough to think a simple sign keeps trespassers out. Ignorance is bliss.

In this case or others it is very easy to spot the people who live in the city by their comments, their comments are usually critical/envious of landowners, and rural people in general (either said or implied) but in reality they are usually way off the mark.

They do not understand land ownership at all, or being connected to the land, not because they are dumb, but because they have never lived it, or really been exposed to it. Often people criticize things they do not understand.

[boah]

Originally Posted by bobalong

In this case or others it is very easy to spot the people who live in the city by their comments, their comments are usually critical/envious of landowners, and rural people in general (either said or implied) but in reality they are usually way off the mark.

They do not understand land ownership at all, or being connected to the land, not because they are dumb, but because they have never lived it, or really been exposed to it. Often people criticize things they do not understand.

Man your way off base here fella, By guessing where I live/ been raised. But, I agree with your last statement.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

There was much much more trespassing 25 years ago than there is today.

That statement might be difficult to substantiate as it only takes us back to the early 90's. Just playing the numbers game .. more hunters, different attitudes and less accessible land available today, would lead some to believe in an opposite trend.
My intention isn't to be preaching to the choir, but there have always been poachers and there have always been trespassers but never in my lifetime have I witnessed more adversity between hunters, land users and landowners as I do today. Sadly, I can't see the trend getting any better in the next decade. That is why I have stated many times that "the good old days are now". So far, that statement, originating many years ago by an unknown author has proven itself correct every decade for the past sixty years. It's not a pleasure to see what is taking place out there by any means but there's always room for optimism and hope... at least from an old geezers viewpoint. Maximize your opportunities, take nothing for granted and put a little something back in to the cause and we may find a way to push a rope.

[Sneeze]

I am not sure how the bankrupt logic that paid access/hunting somehow has anything to do with stopping trespassing.

It's like saying registering guns will prevent gun crime.

I think its been fairly obvious to most good hunters in Alberta there has been a serious increase in slob hunters. Also, its been fairly obvious that a great deal of land has been locked down.

It is definitely creating tension out there, but if you think you can buy your way to the front of the truck hunting convoy I am sorry but you are mistaken.

Every good hunter in Alberta should belong to a hunters lobby. That lobby should be pushing, more importantly than any other issue - an increase in provincial enforcement of existing laws & an increase in the fines associated with breaking those laws.

We basically have the provinces playbook - as they will do to us exactly what they did to the ATV guys. We need to get out ahead of this problem because as we saw in the last two years - when the government decided to put ATV's in its crosshairs, it was too late to call for more enforcement.

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by bobalong

In this case or others it is very easy to spot the people who live in the city by their comments, their comments are usually critical/envious of landowners, and rural people in general (either said or implied) but in reality they are usually way off the mark.

They do not understand land ownership at all, or being connected to the land, not because they are dumb, but because they have never lived it, or really been exposed to it. Often people criticize things they do not understand.

Feel free to screenshot ONE post in the last 2 years outlining a ‘citiot’ showing ‘jealousy’ or envy. Just one. Ill wait.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I am not sure how the bankrupt logic that paid access/hunting somehow has anything to do with stopping trespassing.

It's like saying registering guns will prevent gun crime.

I think its been fairly obvious to most good hunters in Alberta there has been a serious increase in slob hunters. Also, its been fairly obvious that a great deal of land has been locked down.

It is definitely creating tension out there, but if you think you can buy your way to the front of the truck hunting convoy I am sorry but you are mistaken.

Every good hunter in Alberta should belong to a hunters lobby. That lobby should be pushing, more importantly than any other issue - an increase in provincial enforcement of existing laws & an increase in the fines associated with breaking those laws.

We basically have the provinces playbook - as they will do to us exactly what they did to the ATV guys. We need to get out ahead of this problem because as we saw in the last two years - when the government decided to put ATV's in its crosshairs, it was too late to call for more enforcement.

Agree as a hunter,landowner and atv rider.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by chuck

There was much much more trespassing 25 years ago than there is today.

Serious or sarcasm? If serious explain how trespassing has lessened over the years please.

I’m still waiting for a explanation from you or sns in reference how paid access and paid hunting are the same.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Serious or sarcasm? If serious explain how trespassing has lessened over the years please.

I’m still waiting for a explanation from you or sns in reference how paid access and paid hunting are the same.

Paid access for hunting is paid hunting. That is sure hard.

I’ve been hunting for a long time. Hunting 25 Year’s ago was largely a free for all. There are far less trespassers now. Trespass laws have also changed significantly. And that makes a difference.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by chuck

Paid access for hunting is paid hunting. That is sure hard.

I’ve been hunting for a long time. Hunting 25 Year’s ago was largely a free for all. There are far less trespassers now. Trespass laws have also changed significantly. And that makes a difference.

Ya ok chuck. Just as I figured nothing to add.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Ya ok chuck. Just as I figured nothing to add.

What do you want? My goodness you are special.

[boah]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Ya ok chuck. Just as I figured nothing to add.

Call it paid access, paid parking, paid camping whatever. If the end result is to hunt, it is paid hunting.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by chuck

Paid access for hunting is paid hunting. That is sure hard.

I’ve been hunting for a long time. Hunting 25 Year’s ago was largely a free for all. There are far less trespassers now. Trespass laws have also changed significantly. And that makes a difference.

There is some well thought out posts here and then we get this.

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

There is some well thought out posts here and then we get this.

I fail to see whas wrong with chucks post? Massage the terminology all you want, paid access to hunt is paid hunting.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by boah

Call it paid access, paid parking, paid camping whatever. If the end result is to hunt, it is paid hunting.

Paid access is more than just hunting. It is access that is paid for for the purpose of accessing private deeded land. Could be access for fishing, hunting,kite flying,quading,picture taking and whatever one might desire to do on private land.

I can’t even imagine how someone would define paid hunting unless maybe where a hunt farm might be. I suppose if I owned the wildlife then it could be paid hunting. I have yet to see anywhere on here where ownership of the wildlife has been disputed.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

I fail to see whas wrong with chucks post? Massage the terminology all you want, paid access to hunt is paid hunting.

some people are just pointless to argue against. Reasoning has been thrown out the window. He is trying to be a spinster on words but a spade shall always be called a spade.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

There is some well thought out posts here and then we get this.

I thought that was a very well thought out post actually. Nothing he said was wrong. It just didn't fall into your bizarre flippity flopping of terminology that you are trying make us swallow. Sorry dude, you are so far off base here I don't know where to begin.