My first sub MOA group

[Xiph0id]

Shot my first 1" group this weekend.
Did it on my first attempt.
Second attemp resulted in me pulling the third shot over to the right.

Takes a good amount of patience and proper shooting technique.

I think I might be about to do 3/4" with more practice.

Tip of the hat to those who can shoot 1/2" or less.

[duceman]

congratulations. it's nice to see a lot of patience and research finally pay off. keep up the pursuit!

[260 Rem]

Shoot as much as you can...and get used to shooting five shot groups as they are a bit better indicator than three shot groups. Also good to space shooting sessions over time rather than "binge shooting"

[J0HN_R1]

I shot a pretty decent group while doing load-development the other weekend.

Hornady 105 Amax over IMR 4350 @ 105m. Probably measured closer to 0.780".

Still, .780 minus .243 = .537" group...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Shoot as much as you can...and get used to shooting five shot groups as they are a bit better indicator than three shot groups. Also good to space shooting sessions over time rather than "binge shooting"

Very good advice, less shots more often is much better than more shots less often.

I shot a pretty decent group while doing load-development the other weekend.

Hornady 105 Amax over IMR 4350 @ 105m. Probably measured closer to 0.780".

Still, .780 minus .243 = .537" group..

Targets like that can be hard to measure accurately, because the holes aren't well defined, and the holes can actually be considerably smaller than the bullet diameter.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by J0HN_R1

I shot a pretty decent group while doing load-development the other weekend.

Hornady 105 Amax over IMR 4350 @ 105m. Probably measured closer to 0.780".

Still, .780 minus .243 = .537" group...

One good group does not an acurate load make!

It has to be repeatable.

[Bigmountainrider]

Looks to me like it was repeatable 5-7 times at .758" variance?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

Looks to me like it was repeatable 5-7 times at .758" variance?

Repeatable as in multiple groups.

One five shot group is better than one three shot group, but it still doesn't prove the load, or the shooter.

[Sashi]

For the average shooter, Good groups are 80% shooter and 20% rifle and load, so your best group is when you are at your best and most consistent, and therefore can be attributed to your rifle and load. Three shot groups are good for a hunting rifle, while you might want 5 shot groups if you are shooting gophers.

[Xiph0id]

I don't plan on shooting gophers with my 257 and at 5$ a squeeze, I'll stick to a couple of three shot groups here and there to keep my practice up.

We were shooting the 22 between shots to let the barrel cool.
She warms up quick on the weatherby.

[Quinn]

Originally Posted by Sashi

For the average shooter, Good groups are 80% shooter and 20% rifle and load, so your best group is when you are at your best and most consistent, and therefore can be attributed to your rifle and load. Three shot groups are good for a hunting rifle, while you might want 5 shot groups if you are shooting gophers.

I'd argue with that...

Good groups can often be 80% rifle.

Ie: I load tested my AIAT and out of 9, 5 shot groups, the worst was .6**MOA. Best was .2** MOA. Average for LOAD testing groups was just C hair over .5.

I bet I can put anybody on that gun and have 9 sub MOA groups with proper fitment of scope and gun.

I've fought for many years with factory guns thinking it was me, variable weather, load, projectiles, etc.. It's not always the shooter.

While I'm not a huge fan of the AI yet, it's proved a few things to me....

[duster243]

Originally Posted by Quinn

I'd argue with that...

Good groups can often be 80% rifle.

Ie: I load tested my AIAT and out of 9, 5 shot groups, the worst was .6**MOA. Best was .2** MOA. Average for LOAD testing groups was just C hair over .5.

I bet I can put anybody on that gun and have 9 sub MOA groups with proper fitment of scope and gun.

I've fought for many years with factory guns thinking it was me, variable weather, load, projectiles, etc.. It's not always the shooter.

While I'm not a huge fan of the AI yet, it's proved a few things to me....

Putting anybody behind an accurate rifle and have it shoot sub MOA groups is a stretch in my opinion. Most individuals have some sort of bad habit that contributes to opening up the group.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Quinn

I'd argue with that...

Good groups can often be 80% rifle.
Ie: I load tested my AIAT and out of 9, 5 shot groups, the worst was .6**MOA. Best was .2** MOA. Average for LOAD testing groups was just C hair over .5.
I bet I can put anybody on that gun and have 9 sub MOA groups with proper fitment of scope and gun.
I've fought for many years with factory guns thinking it was me, variable weather, load, projectiles, etc.. It's not always the shooter.
While I'm not a huge fan of the AI yet, it's proved a few things to me....

I have no idea of the "percentages", but am am onboard with the contention that a capable rifle is absolutely necessary. Even Gretsky would have been handicapped without a quality stick.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by duster243

Putting anybody behind an accurate rifle and have it shoot sub MOA groups is a stretch in my opinion. Most individuals have some sort of bad habit that contributes to opening up the group.

have sen this same situation far too man times to disagree with it.
Cat

[J0HN_R1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Repeatable as in multiple groups.

One five shot group is better than one three shot group, but it still doesn't prove the load, or the shooter.

I don't think I have to prove anything... I know my rifle will shoot that grouping consistently, and so can I if I want to.

[Xiph0id]

Quite the topic I've created.

Just so everyone knows, I shoot a stock weatherby vanguard in 257 weatherby magnum topped with a Nikon monarch 3 using factory nosler accubonds.

Should I be more impressed with myself knowing this?

I've only really started to horn my skills this year.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

Quite the topic I've created.
Just so everyone knows, I shoot a stock weatherby vanguard in 257 weatherby magnum topped with a Nikon monarch 3 using factory nosler
Should I be more impressed with myself knowing this?
I've only really started to horn my skills this year.

Next time out, try the "sub-MOA rifle challenge" (find it with the search function). If you are successfull on your first try, be impressed with yourself.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by Bigmountainrider

Looks to me like it was repeatable 5-7 times at .758" variance?

"a" is generally not used to describe multiples.

quote;
"I shot a pretty decent group while doing load-development the other weekend. "

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

I don't plan on shooting gophers with my 257 and at 5$ a squeeze, I'll stick to a couple of three shot groups here and there to keep my practice up.

We were shooting the 22 between shots to let the barrel cool.
She warms up quick on the weatherby.

A lot of people who insist that you should shoot 5 shot groups have no idea how quickly these barrels heat up and how much damage you can do to them by over heating!

[Xiph0id]

My barrel after a 3 shot group is quite warm to the touch. After 5 I think it would be hot.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

A lot of people who insist that you should shoot 5 shot groups have no idea how quickly these barrels heat up and how much damage you can do to them by over heating!

Depends on the barrel contour vs how much coal your burning. The average hunting rifle is fine for 5 shots. I think too many people are concerned about the boogey man of a burned out barrel.

[bobinthesky]

This is a 257 Wby with a light barrel but feel free to do whatever you want to with yours.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

We're talking about a 257 Weatherby, they have light barrels and lots of case capacity to heat barrels but feel free to do whatever you want to with yours.

If you shot a 5 round group fast, let the barrel cool, then did it again, what would this damage?

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

This is a 257 Wby with a light barrel but feel free to do whatever you want to with yours.

light barrels cool down faster go to town

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

light barrels cool down faster go to town

Exactly. If you have 2 barrels of the same length and bore, but 1 is 2 times thicker, the volume of material is 4 times the smaller one but only has twice the surface area. Thus making the thinner one FAR more capable of cooling faster.

I have often been amazed with all the information available to people they still rely on wives tales and anecdotal facts grandpa told them in the gopher field. It is true that if you get a barrel hot and keep shooting it, it will lose the initial edge of accuracy faster and you throat will move ahead. This is important when your a competitive benchrest shooter but is ridiculous for the average hunting rifle. Its like being concerned if your Toyota Corolla will not be competitive in NASCAR.

[Xiph0id]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Exactly. If you have 2 barrels of the same length and bore, but 1 is 2 times thicker, the volume of material is 4 times the smaller one but only has twice the surface area. Thus making the thinner one FAR more capable of cooling faster.

I have often been amazed with all the information available to people they still rely on wives tales and anecdotal facts grandpa told them in the gopher field. It is true that if you get a barrel hot and keep shooting it, it will lose the initial edge of accuracy faster and you throat will move ahead. This is important when your a competitive benchrest shooter but is ridiculous for the average hunting rifle. Its like being concerned if your Toyota Corolla will not be competitive in NASCAR.

Isn't more like will my Toyota last 300k instead of 350k?

I plan on having it for my lifetime and I've read that this magnum will wear out faster than most standard calibers.

I can spare the extra few minutes so why not?

I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, so please feel free to inform me where I may be wrong.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

Isn't more like will my Toyota last 300k instead of 350k?

I plan on having it for my lifetime and I've read that this magnum will wear out faster than most standard calibers.

I can spare the extra few minutes so why not?

I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, so please feel free to inform me where I may be wrong.

That's fair. One thing that people don't realize is the cost of a barrel is nothing compared to the cost of the ammunition to change its condition. To re-barrel your rifle is about $600 or so. Your rifle should have no problem running 3000 cartridges through it. If you could reload cheap and get your average price to $1 a shot, that means that you would put $3000 worth of ammunition and would only cost $600 or so to fix it. The learning you would get from the $3600 lesson would be invaluable. The next thing is once you get a new aftermarket barrel you will likely get something that will shoot circles around the original one. What you also have to understand is when barrels get "shot out" what happens is the throat moves ahead until they have trouble seating the bullet far enough out to touch the lands. If you have a long washed out throat it does not mean that the rifle wont still be a shooter. Roy Weatherby chambered his rifles with a really long freebore that would not be acceptable to benchrest standards but still produced exceptionally accurate hunting rifles.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

Shot my first 1" group this weekend.
Did it on my first attempt.
Second attemp resulted in me pulling the third shot over to the right.

Takes a good amount of patience and proper shooting technique.

I think I might be about to do 3/4" with more practice.

Tip of the hat to those who can shoot 1/2" or less.

Congratulations and keep at it!
Cat

[Xiph0id]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That's fair. One thing that people don't realize is the cost of a barrel is nothing compared to the cost of the ammunition to change its condition. To re-barrel your rifle is about $600 or so. Your rifle should have no problem running 3000 cartridges through it. If you could reload cheap and get your average price to $1 a shot, that means that you would put $3000 worth of ammunition and would only cost $600 or so to fix it. The learning you would get from the $3600 lesson would be invaluable. The next thing is once you get a new aftermarket barrel you will likely get something that will shoot circles around the original one. What you also have to understand is when barrels get "shot out" what happens is the throat moves ahead until they have trouble seating the bullet far enough out to touch the lands. If you have a long washed out throat it does not mean that the rifle wont still be a shooter. Roy Weatherby chambered his rifles with a really long freebore that would not be acceptable to benchrest standards but still produced exceptionally accurate hunting rifles.

I've read about the long freeborn. Why?

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

Shot my first 1" group this weekend.
Did it on my first attempt.
Second attemp resulted in me pulling the third shot over to the right.

Takes a good amount of patience and proper shooting technique.

I think I might be about to do 3/4" with more practice.

Tip of the hat to those who can shoot 1/2" or less.

Excellent. Will make the assumption this is purchased ammo, buy as many boxes as too can afford, you will be set for some time .

Keep shooting the 22 , and if you have another center fire rifle that isn’t as expensive to shot use it also. The more repetition you take and observation on what you are doing will help.