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  #61  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:11 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
what's it take to be a real bio? a PhD?
No i don't think he would necessarily need a phd to be a real bio.
But then on the other hand not all people with phd's in biology would I call
real bio's. It takes more than a degree to be a bio as some have shown.
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  #62  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:18 PM
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TyreeUM is a well travelled Bio and a great fisherman, thats a rare combo in the Bio world from what ive known.
Ty also doesnt speak down to the less trained......simply a smart nice guy.
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  #63  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:25 PM
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okay now that a few have responded....
If your a concerned person that there is a issue would you?
1- write a email to your Bio?
2- join a club to voice your concern?
3- do nothing?

also i this was a angler mail in survey, how would a Bio interperate the posts in this thread?
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  #64  
Old 11-25-2011, 09:32 PM
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If I knew that the email would be taken seriously and actually looked into I would write one to the bio about the possible problems.

I would also join a club if it was local to my area. I don't think I would want to join a club that I could never make the meetings or events.
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  #65  
Old 11-25-2011, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chubbdarter View Post
okay now that a few have responded....
If your a concerned person that there is a issue would you?
1- write a email to your Bio?
2- join a club to voice your concern?
3- do nothing?

also i this was a angler mail in survey, how would a Bio interperate the posts in this thread?
I'm not sure a biologist would find much of use in this thread other than perhaps some notable conjecture.

On the other hand, a resource manager could identify that:
i) stake holders value the resource
ii) there is concern among stakeholders that the fishery is not sustainable
iii) there is a need for a management plan
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  #66  
Old 11-26-2011, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
I'm not sure a biologist would find much of use in this thread other than perhaps some notable conjecture.

On the other hand, a resource manager could identify that:
i) stake holders value the resource
ii) there is concern among stakeholders that the fishery is not sustainable
iii) there is a need for a management plan
So your saying if a Bio received this information that he could not identify that there could be a problem and if not able to look in to it himself he could not direct it to someone that could. You don't seem to have much faith in biologist then.
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  #67  
Old 11-26-2011, 02:16 AM
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I only go to PC once a year and have seen no changes in the Walleye size from day one. It is a bit confusing as they seem healthy but nothing more. The Pike are a different story in this lake. I have caught and seen some of the biggest Pike in there compared to my favorite Southern reservoirs where just the oppisite is happening.

7 years ago 100 Walleye at 16" every couple of hours, today - the same?? No answers from me but this is just not normal so the future of the lake is 16" Walleye and Pike that will become large monsters.

My $0.02 worth. Dodger.
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  #68  
Old 11-26-2011, 07:15 PM
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Maybe the plan is to make a monster more than trophy pike lake!!
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  #69  
Old 11-27-2011, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by horsetrader View Post
So your saying if a Bio received this information that he could not identify that there could be a problem and if not able to look in to it himself he could not direct it to someone that could. You don't seem to have much faith in biologist then.
Quite the opposite.

I think the state of PCR is well known in general, and would be no mystery to any biologist, fisheries or otherwise.

Beyond the fact that there appears to be a single age class of walleye, I'm not sure any new information has been presented here.

The info that has been presented which might not have been already widely known is identified in my second (ii) point above.



An additional suggestion I'll make here is that while both the pike and the burbot are growing, walleye growth has stalled, perhaps this is due to a diet made up almost exclusively of invertebrates.

With an invert diet and a huge population they may not be able to get much larger and have reached a healthy equilibrium.

A similar relate-able scenario may be small creek trout which are mature at 8" and reach a maximum size of 12". This species, under these environmental conditions has reached its maximum, for the time being.

If walleye were more effective at feeding on inverts, I bet they would continue to grow.
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  #70  
Old 11-27-2011, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
Quite the opposite.

I think the state of PCR is well known in general, and would be no mystery to any biologist, fisheries or otherwise.

Beyond the fact that there appears to be a single age class of walleye, I'm not sure any new information has been presented here.


If you say that the state of PCR is well known in general then why in your first post did you state in your opinion the fishery was fine.




The info that has been presented which might not have been already widely known is identified in my second (ii) point above.

ii) there is concern among stakeholders that the fishery is not sustainable
How you figure any info that was not previously known is covered by this statement is beyond me.



An additional suggestion I'll make here is that while both the pike and the burbot are growing, walleye growth has stalled, perhaps this is due to a diet made up almost exclusively of invertebrates.

This suggestion was brought up by other people earlier in the thread and is not a new suggestion



With an invert diet and a huge population they may not be able to get much larger and have reached a healthy equilibrium.

A similar relate-able scenario may be small creek trout which are mature at 8" and reach a maximum size of 12". This species, under these environmental conditions has reached its maximum, for the time being.

If walleye were more effective at feeding on inverts, I bet they would continue to grow.

??????????????
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  #71  
Old 11-27-2011, 08:56 AM
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For the one comment above, walleye spawning habitat was incorporated into the design, there's lots of it. I think you guys may be imagining a bit more of a recruitment problem than really exists. You could always email the area bio if you want to know what kind of monitoring has occurred, spawning has been confirmed more than once.
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  #72  
Old 11-27-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jrs View Post
For the one comment above, walleye spawning habitat was incorporated into the design, there's lots of it. I think you guys may be imagining a bit more of a recruitment problem than really exists. You could always email the area bio if you want to know what kind of monitoring has occurred, spawning has been confirmed more than once.
Good to know!

We were there yesterday and the walleye we landed were all smaller than the smallest we saw all summer, much lighter colours too.
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  #73  
Old 11-27-2011, 01:59 PM
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I've been following this thread for a couple of days now. So is this conclusive that the walleyes are reproducing in PCR?
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  #74  
Old 11-27-2011, 03:33 PM
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Must be something new, the F and W officer I talked to last year down there said they had never seen any sign of reproduction in the walleyes. There were 2 size classes because it was stocked twice is what he told me.
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  #75  
Old 11-27-2011, 10:12 PM
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I guess i really dont think like a Bio, if they dont find fishermans input valuble. To even imply a lake has no mysteries means that.... that person knows it all. To be blunt.... that book smart attitude is the worst.
As ive stated before the very best Bio's we can have are Book and Lake smart. Highly educated and Good fisherman. That combo is rare with TyreeUM being the only exception i know.
Whats the solution?
Highly educated Bio's work with Good fisherman, especially those intimate with the water being studied.
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  #76  
Old 11-27-2011, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chubbdarter View Post
I guess i really dont think like a Bio, if they dont find fishermans input valuble. To even imply a lake has no mysteries means that.... that person knows it all. To be blunt.... that book smart attitude is the worst.
As ive stated before the very best Bio's we can have are Book and Lake smart. Highly educated and Good fisherman. That combo is rare with TyreeUM being the only exception i know.
Whats the solution?
Highly educated Bio's work with Good fisherman, especially those intimate with the water being studied.
You are so right there. With out a working knowledge of the lake and some experience in actually fishing the fishery all the book smarts in the world will only get you the basics. Nothing will replace experience.
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  #77  
Old 11-27-2011, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by horsetrader View Post
You are so right there. With out a working knowledge of the lake and some experience in actually fishing the fishery all the book smarts in the world will only get you the basics. Nothing will replace experience.
I believe this is even more true with every lake being different in make up.
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  #78  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:52 AM
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it's all well and good boys no doubt. but for how long? i too enjoy an afternoon there with the family both on the ice and in the summer. i think there should be some concern though as to how long a good thing can go on for if there's no changes observed with the fishery. i lived up north and have experienced the recent downfall of both pigeon and calling lake. i'm not suggesting there's the same issues with PCR or even a problem. but, i don't believe we can be ignorant to the fact that the good thing of today with a continued zero harvest and no significant age classes being observed will last forever. i just can't see how. again i'm no bio dude, just a fisherman who has observed a few things over the years. i think this is what the OP is inquiring about. i'm sure although he says he's never fished the waters i'm sure his children or possibly his grandchildren have, and them along with the three of you and myself all would like to enjoy the PCR of today for years to come. the question is, when might it be too late to preserve what we enjoy today?

Dace
How long has it been like this now? Any sign of things getting bad?

When did fishermen become like a group of old women? Sit around all day in front of our computers worrying and looking for problems where none exist, or where we don't even fish? Busy bodies, do-gooders and know-it-alls.

Could PCR collapse one day? For sure, but what can be done about it today? Not much would be my guess. Should anything be done? Not unless there's a damn good reason for doing it. I don't want to bury my head in the sand either, but all this talk of stocking different prey species, limited harvest, etc... is just pointless speculation from people that really don't know what the consequences of those things would be. Why would you mess with a fishery like that because it MIGHT improve it, or it MIGHT prevent it from MAYBE collapsing one day? By all accounts I've heard on this thread, other than concerns about the average size of the walleye population, it's pretty healthy. I haven't heard any concern from SRD about the situation either.

If the population isn't maintainable as some have suggested, and there is no recruitment, and the walleye have reached their maximum size based on available forage, then what's wrong with that? There's likely not much to be done about it at this point that will overcome all the previous years of failed recruitment and the lack of forage. It is what it is. It may not last forever, but that's OK, we know the formula to restore it. What's wrong with having a lake that is essentially a put/take walleye fishery? A really good one.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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  #79  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by freeones View Post
How long has it been like this now? Any sign of things getting bad?

When did fishermen become like a group of old women? Sit around all day in front of our computers worrying and looking for problems where none exist, or where we don't even fish? Busy bodies, do-gooders and know-it-alls.

I started this thread because of the purposal by SRD to have more angler input. I intentionally picked a body of water i do not or have never fished so, to simulate what a Bio/SRD person may also be confronted with. My purpose was to see what questions should be on the survey to gain the most important data. It appears name calling should be part of SRD's survey. Im positve and have confirmed with other agencies in North America that angler surveys do provide important data.

Could PCR collapse one day? For sure, but what can be done about it today? Not much would be my guess. Should anything be done? Not unless there's a damn good reason for doing it. I don't want to bury my head in the sand either, but all this talk of stocking different prey species, limited harvest, etc... is just pointless speculation from people that really don't know what the consequences of those things would be. Why would you mess with a fishery like that because it MIGHT improve it, or it MIGHT prevent it from MAYBE collapsing one day? By all accounts I've heard on this thread, other than concerns about the average size of the walleye population, it's pretty healthy. I haven't heard any concern from SRD about the situation either.

You are now participating in the survey and have every right to comment the way you feel

If the population isn't maintainable as some have suggested, and there is no recruitment, and the walleye have reached their maximum size based on available forage, then what's wrong with that? There's likely not much to be done about it at this point that will overcome all the previous years of failed recruitment and the lack of forage. It is what it is. It may not last forever, but that's OK, we know the formula to restore it. What's wrong with having a lake that is essentially a put/take walleye fishery? A really good one.

That very well could be the input SRD is looking for. With all respect to your post, I beleive there is situations where the present recreational benifits may out wieght any long term technical fishery management. So in many ways i agree with you. If the surveys come in that anglers want the lake to be left alone with no furthur management, I believe that option should be respected in whole or in part.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
.................................................. .................................................. ......
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  #80  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:22 AM
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If you are soliciting input for the purpose of a survey, you should state that in the first post of the thread, not the 3rd page.

What is now happening here is bordering on manipulation, and nobody likes to be manipulated.
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  #81  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:29 AM
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Default Seems to me...

...that all the lakes, or what passes for lakes, in Alberta are managed by an arm of the provincial government. SRD or what-have-you, at the behest of an elected MLA and his troupe of bureaucratic bunglers and job-for-lifers, employs an assortment of highly trained scientists and technologists. These people go about their business counting fish and examining the health of the water and the aquatic life. And, in spite of the needs of the other downstream users (irrigation and livestock watering), they are "pedaling as fast as they can" in terms of maintaining an adequate fishery. N'est pas?

But isn't the role of government to meet the needs of every citizen in the largest numbers? And the greatest number of anglers in the province are, likely, the family guys on a limited budget and a bunch of inexpensive gear hoping to have a little fun with the kiddies. Not a hand full of tournament "pros" and purists that know every pool and riffle on the eastern slopes. Plus a big assortment of long-timers in between.

When in the history of man is there documented evidence that, even if such a mind could separate the wheat from the chaff, such educated persons would be susceptible to the musings of the great unwashed? Do you really feel that public input is important to these people, remembering what I have already stated about bureaucrats and their minions?

I for one am not convinced that anything I have to say in terms of how an Albertan wishes to live and fish beyond, of course, "Sure I'll vote for you!" or "Keep up the good work" to a government official is going to fall on anything but deaf ears. Even if I fished PCR exclusively and had plotted every hump and sand bar and knew a bunch of walleye by name. Which of course I don't. Never been to the place. But that shouldn't matter. Lots of fellas comment on s**t they know nothing about. Sadly, the same could be said for a lot of places where I have charted the bottom, so that's my 2 cents.

I do, however, admire the determination of some of you fellas, in particular Chubbdarter, in holding their feet to the fire. Keep at it, I am sure the rewards will justify the effort.

Free
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  #82  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
If you are soliciting input for the purpose of a survey, you should state that in the first post of the thread, not the 3rd page.

What is now happening here is bordering on manipulation, and nobody likes to be manipulated.
Why does that change how you answered simple questions on how you feel about a lake?
Simple questions and members have answered to the best of their knowledge. If you choose to add drama and CSI to this thread, thats also your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chubbdarter View Post
I have never fished the Resevoir but read alot of posts.
Are the fish starving?
Are fish cropping their off spring to a zero factor?
With the consumption warnings on the fish...whats the solution?

What the solution?
Its pretty clear you post like your smarter than everyone but doesnt the above ask questions and ask for solutions?
Or is a survey only a survey if its a Poll?

P.S......i know the members here are smart enough to know what this thread was, is and will be

Last edited by chubbdarter; 11-28-2011 at 10:45 AM.
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  #83  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:41 AM
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I do, however, admire the determination of some of you fellas, in particular Chubbdarter, in holding their feet to the fire. Keep at it, I am sure the rewards will justify the effort.

Free
x2!
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  #84  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by chubbdarter View Post
Why does that change how you answered simple questions on how you feel about a lake?
Simple questions and members have answered to the best of their knowledge. If you choose to add drama and CSI to this thread, thats also your choice.



Its pretty clear you post like your smarter than everyone but doesnt the above ask questions and ask for solutions?
Or is a survey only a survey if its a Poll?

P.S......i know the members here are smart enough to know what this thread was, is and will be

The point is, is that when you were criticized, your response was essentially to "reveal" the underlying purpose of the thread.

This isn't a poker game, so if you show us your cards from the beginning, we can all be on the same page and work to a constructive conclusion.

So, now maybe you can clarify for us:

Are we participating in a survey? or are we discussing the PCR dilemma?
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  #85  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeGuy View Post
The point is, is that when you were criticized, your response was essentially to "reveal" the underlying purpose of the thread.

This isn't a poker game, so if you show us your cards from the beginning, we can all be on the same page and work to a constructive conclusion.

So, now maybe you can clarify for us:

Are we participating in a survey? or are we discussing the PCR dilemma?
If a person asks a question or questions and people answer of their free will is it not a survey?
To make you happy next time i ask for comments on whats the best hook to fish with...I will type in bold letters, this is a SURVEY.
Im sure the members have answered with all honesty and wont change their answers if i had annouced.....THIS IS A SURVEY
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  #86  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:06 PM
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Survey or no survey, makes no difference to me, I prefer to deal with things straight up rather than PC gov't style, but either way, the point I was trying to make stands. Sometimes it's best to just leave well enough alone.

There may be some value in angler surveys. They would be so completely subjective and affected by so many factors and biases that I don't see what the real value of them would be beyond very basic big picture ideas. I'd also be concerned that any data gathered would be so inconcise that it would be very open to any and all kinds interpretation. That could be me just missing the point though. I'm not sure that having a few thousand cooks in the kitchen, some of them with no pots or spoons, is the right way to make good soup. There are times when it's better to leave things to those that are trained to make the decisions. If someone showed me a proper scientific report that said drastic changes have to be made to PCR or it will collapse in 2 years, then obviously I'd support the changes, but I don't see that. I see a lot of speculation, and a lot of individual opinions based on what they want or think should be done, myself included.

I don't doubt that Chubdarter and others are asking the questions with only the best intentions, but we all know what road those pave, especially when the government gets involved.
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  #87  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by freeones View Post
How long has it been like this now? Any sign of things getting bad?

When did fishermen become like a group of old women? Sit around all day in front of our computers worrying and looking for problems where none exist, or where we don't even fish? Busy bodies, do-gooders and know-it-alls.

Could PCR collapse one day? For sure, but what can be done about it today? Not much would be my guess. Should anything be done? Not unless there's a damn good reason for doing it. I don't want to bury my head in the sand either, but all this talk of stocking different prey species, limited harvest, etc... is just pointless speculation from people that really don't know what the consequences of those things would be. Why would you mess with a fishery like that because it MIGHT improve it, or it MIGHT prevent it from MAYBE collapsing one day? By all accounts I've heard on this thread, other than concerns about the average size of the walleye population, it's pretty healthy. I haven't heard any concern from SRD about the situation either.

If the population isn't maintainable as some have suggested, and there is no recruitment, and the walleye have reached their maximum size based on available forage, then what's wrong with that? There's likely not much to be done about it at this point that will overcome all the previous years of failed recruitment and the lack of forage. It is what it is. It may not last forever, but that's OK, we know the formula to restore it. What's wrong with having a lake that is essentially a put/take walleye fishery? A really good one.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Free,

i’m unsure if you calling me out here. i can only assume so as you’ve quoted my post. if that’s the case, i’m even more unsure why? i’m by no means an “old woman” . i have far better things to do than be an internet warrior “looking for problems where none exist.” a “busy bodies, do-gooder and know-it-all”, Sir i am not. as stated in the post you quoted of mine i’m not a Bio (expert), just a fisherman who has made some observations and Sir i do fish, search a thread or two of mine. if i offended you in some way, you read into my post something deeper than i intended. you state “If it ain't broke, don't fix it.” i guess that’s where we differ. do you change the oil in your truck? how about weed your garden, or keep a good coat of stain on your fence and deck? then again maybe i like chasing white elephants and unicorns. Free i respected your posts, always have. we’re all intitled to our opinions, it’s an open forum.

Dace
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  #88  
Old 11-28-2011, 12:52 PM
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Default !!!

hey CHUBDARTER,
sorry for the way, way late reply, JUST read your comment.
my inclusion of calling lake was not due to any mercury issues but the skinny, starving fish.
each year they get thinner and thinner with the young pike looking like true snakes.
last trip there last year we talked to the fish cops and they said the perch pop'n there has been basically extinct for a few years now and thus the game fish have no forage base.
worried for the state of that lake.
sad to see. used to be a trophy fishery...
sorry for the thread hijack....pcr needs help too...
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  #89  
Old 11-28-2011, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Daceminnow View Post
Free,

i’m unsure if you calling me out here. i can only assume so as you’ve quoted my post. if that’s the case, i’m even more unsure why? i’m by no means an “old woman” . i have far better things to do than be an internet warrior “looking for problems where none exist.” a “busy bodies, do-gooder and know-it-all”, Sir i am not. as stated in the post you quoted of mine i’m not a Bio (expert), just a fisherman who has made some observations and Sir i do fish, search a thread or two of mine. if i offended you in some way, you read into my post something deeper than i intended. you state “If it ain't broke, don't fix it.” i guess that’s where we differ. do you change the oil in your truck? how about weed your garden, or keep a good coat of stain on your fence and deck? then again maybe i like chasing white elephants and unicorns. Free i respected your posts, always have. we’re all intitled to our opinions, it’s an open forum.

Dace
I quoted you because you quoted me, but it doesn't go beyond that. Likewise, I respect your posts and the info you've provided.

My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just at what seems to be an all to common attitude around here. I get frustrated at the amount stuff I see that is exactly what I was describing - too many "experts" trying to solve problems that aren't in need of solving. Every now and then something good comes from it, but for the most part, it just creates a fire from imaginary smoke.

The maintenance thing is a great analogy. I change the oil, when it needs it, not at 100 kms in a good running engine. I weed the garden when it needs it, and I stain my fence when it's obvious the old coat is worn out, not a week after I stained it the last time just in case it might wear out five years from now. I also prefer to do it in a proper proven way. I don't like to introduce a bunch of insects into the garden because my cousin's neighbor's father in law who once googled insects said they might eat the weeds or take out half the fence boards so that hopefully the rest last longer and I won't have to stain as many. That's the difference I see as this whole thing relates to PCR. There's no problem with maintenance, I'm all for it, but not just for the sake of it, I do it when its needed. Like I said, if someone can show me the scientific data to show there's truly a dilemma in PCR, then I'll get on board with finding the solution.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:29 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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Originally Posted by freeones View Post
I quoted you because you quoted me, but it doesn't go beyond that. Likewise, I respect your posts and the info you've provided.

My post wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just at what seems to be an all to common attitude around here. I get frustrated at the amount stuff I see that is exactly what I was describing - too many "experts" trying to solve problems that aren't in need of solving. Every now and then something good comes from it, but for the most part, it just creates a fire from imaginary smoke.

The maintenance thing is a great analogy. I change the oil, when it needs it, not at 100 kms in a good running engine. I weed the garden when it needs it, and I stain my fence when it's obvious the old coat is worn out, not a week after I stained it the last time just in case it might wear out five years from now. I also prefer to do it in a proper proven way. I don't like to introduce a bunch of insects into the garden because my cousin's neighbor's father in law who once googled insects said they might eat the weeds or take out half the fence boards so that hopefully the rest last longer and I won't have to stain as many. That's the difference I see as this whole thing relates to PCR. There's no problem with maintenance, I'm all for it, but not just for the sake of it, I do it when its needed. Like I said, if someone can show me the scientific data to show there's truly a dilemma in PCR, then I'll get on board with finding the solution.

Do you need someone to tell you when your oil needs changing your garden needs weeding or your fence needs staining? Why do you have to wait for scientific data to show you when a water system needs help I just hope by the time that happens there is still time. Just turning it in to another put and take lake is not the proper way to manage a fishery.
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