Prussian Carp update

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by NEWB

I searched through a few pages of google of people professing their lack of love for the carp.

You make valid points. However there is no concrete evidence as to how they destroy or destabalize the eco system..


I did find a few good carp recipies though... LOL

Impact of introduced prussian carp

lots of info there

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by NEWB

right...

So they can destroy or destabilize the eco system... How exactly do they do this and how has this been proven? What research has been done to prove this?

I am not pro carp. I am just curious about why they are "so bad". Would they not make a tasty meal for predatory fish like walleye and pike? More food supply would increase the walleye and pike populations causing them to grow.

Nature has a way of balancing its self out.

All I read about is "Carp are bad", "Carp must be destroyed", "Carp are the devil", well.. not exactly the devil but you get the idea.

Are these old wives tales or are these scientifically founded claims.

I am looking for proof.

They will out compete native fish species and/or non native preferred sport fish species for space and food. They damage the habitat through siltation and digging up their feeding area. Sure. In a Pike, Walleye, Perch lake they can be prey for walleye when smaller and for smaller and larger pike in various size classes of carp. However they could outcompete perch and/or seriously decrease their population by effectively outcompeting perch.

In a put and take trout lake or a lake with limited food and space it would be a problem. They could eat all the food. In a lake with low O2 problems in winter or summer they can take up a critical amount of O2 and while they are more tolerant and can survive...other fish would not.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

There never was anything in Crimson (other than leeches) so perch would be an improvement. I am not going to buy into the idea that every single trout lake that now has perch in it was a deliberate stocking by humans. Some are pretty remote. Sorry. Just not plausible.

Sorry you do not accept the fact.

Contact your local F&W biologist and tell them you feel birds carry perch around in the air...without water... and seeding only lakes that have people visiting. How it goes against common sense and population distributions.

You are right. Crimson had nothing. Had nothing for ever and ever. Now suddenly there are fish.

Apparently the perch are up to 12 inchers...go get em. The idiot that put them there likely feels like a hero. Then in 10 years when they are all 4 inches long... will just stock your favorite lake and ruin an actual sport fishery.

[RisingRainbows]

I don't understand the hesitation for people to believe in bucket biologists. Of course people are illegally introducing fish to water bodies. The science shows it's not birds just by the rate that new water bodies are currently adopting fish. If birds were doing it all along, Sundance is right, every river and lake would have every game fish. Why no Athabasca rainbows in the bow or the smoky? Quit coming up with alternative theories and focus on the real problem, people. Which is, by the way, something we can actually control.

[trainerdave]

I table you this. The Carp have spread and reproduced at an alarming rate and are incredibly successful at utilizing cold and warm waters and adapted to various food sources. So, logically they must be consuming pretty much everything within the watercourses. Their sheer numbers and distribution in a short period of time confirm this fact-or they would not be expanding their range. The growth rates are directly a result of what they draw out of the water. They are consuming food to grow and reproduce-the faster the growth rate and the quicker the spread of these fish,the more biomass has been taken out of the water. In other words,they are eating everything including minnows, insects, tadpoles,salamanders...everything. If they were not eating more than everything else in their ecosystem, they would be held in check, they would not be growing and reproducing at this rate. That quickly leads to a total upset of the ecosystem. The carp displace through consumption many of the species in the watershed. Species which rely on somewhat specific life forms to eat within that watershed are starved out. If they are also displacing plant matter which is cover for various species of aquatic life, then this is another change to the ecosystem...
Fish poop and other secretions. As they eat everything in the ecosystem and occupy water in high numbers and secrete and excrete they alter the chemistry of the water, making it toxic to other fishes in some cases. Nutrient loading from their excretions then further lowers the available oxygen for those who require it and creates algal blooms which ...well...you get the picture...we all have been reading about algal blooms in Alberta lately. Prussian carp, what a mess.

Hope this helps to at least develop a bit of understanding.

Dave.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by RisingRainbows

I don't understand the hesitation for people to believe in bucket biologists. Of course people are illegally introducing fish to water bodies. The science shows it's not birds just by the rate that new water bodies are currently adopting fish. If birds were doing it all along, Sundance is right, every river and lake would have every game fish. Why no Athabasca rainbows in the bow or the smoky? Quit coming up with alternative theories and focus on the real problem, people. Which is, by the way, something we can actually control.

I don't think anyone has denied that people transport fish. It is just tiring to constantly hear new fish populations ascribed to them when the bucket brigade is often not responsible.

It is quite clear that we can not in fact control people or where they illegally introduce fish.

Whether it is private, public, transprovincial or transnational, there is almost nothing we can do.

It is not just the phantom bucket brigade as there are numerous methods for fish to move from one location to another.

How many active water licenses are there in this province?

[Sundancefisher]

If you know someone moving fish around... Contact report a poacher and report them. You get a wad of cash to go fishing with or buy gear. If you know where they got the fish they can do genetics to help convict them.

These low lifes hiding in shadows thinking they can play God with our fisheries will be on their hands and knees snivelling for forgiveness in court...before fines and a jail sentence we hope.

They can hid but eventually their own kids will know them as the destroyers of Alberta sport fishing.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I don't think anyone has denied that people transport fish. It is just tiring to constantly hear new fish populations ascribed to them when the bucket brigade is often not responsible.

It is quite clear that we can not in fact control people or where they illegally introduce fish.

Whether it is private, public, transprovincial or transnational, there is almost nothing we can do.

It is not just the phantom bucket brigade as there are numerous methods for fish to move from one location to another.

How many active water licenses are there in this province?

Always wanting to troll in seemingly controversial subjects. Water licences. Seriously. Outside of water courses and buckets... Therw are no other processes that have done this damage.

The apathy only serves to drive these idiots to do it again and again.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Jun04-2014.pdf

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

If you know someone moving fish around... Contact report a poacher and report them. You get a wad of cash to go fishing with or buy gear. If you know where they got the fish they can do genetics to help convict them.

These low lifes hiding in shadows thinking they can play God with our fisheries will be on their hands and knees snivelling for forgiveness in court...before fines and a jail sentence we hope.

They can hid but eventually their own kids will know them as the destroyers of Alberta sport fishing.

Sun

Some of the origins of these carp are known. Flooded dugouts.

If you cared to, you could find out exactly who some of the responsible parties are.

Have at it.

I doubt the crown would be receptive to hearing about it, but you seem passionate enough to push the issue.

[Sundancefisher]

This list keeps growing.

http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...ockedPonds.pdf


Now carp will be the next evil wave of a stupid person.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Sun

Some of the origins of these carp are known. Flooded dugouts.

If you cared to, you could find out exactly who some of the responsible parties are.

Have at it.

I doubt the crown would be receptive to hearing about it, but you seem passionate enough to push the issue.

Yes they are. I have asked F&W to prosecute. Some examples need to be made.

The lack of action is likely due to a limp and apathetic and voiceless absent lobby group.

We need collective action. Care less and I guess you deserve what you get.

[BeeGuy]

Do you know how many water trucks fill their tanks from water bodies containing perch in this province?

Maybe something to consider.

It's a helluva bucket brigade.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Do you know how many water trucks fill their tanks from water bodies containing perch in this province?

Maybe something to consider.

It's a helluva bucket brigade.

And how much experience do you have with water trucks, their licences, their operations.

[RisingRainbows]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I don't think anyone has denied that people transport fish. It is just tiring to constantly hear new fish populations ascribed to them when the bucket brigade is often not responsible.

It is quite clear that we can not in fact control people or where they illegally introduce fish.

Whether it is private, public, transprovincial or transnational, there is almost nothing we can do.

It is not just the phantom bucket brigade as there are numerous methods for fish to move from one location to another.

How many active water licenses are there in this province?

Saying we can't control what people do is a terrible attitude. We control what we do ourselves and we control what others do via laws, enforcement, awareness, and just plain effort from people who care. Throwing in the towel and saying it is out of our control is not the answer.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

And how much experience do you have with water trucks, their licences, their operations.

Answer with a question?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Answer with a question?

Answers my question. You are throwing shots into a passionate debate over the health and future fitness of our sport.

Look at the list of affected lakes. Consider how water is collected and used under licences. Your guess that this is a viable alternative to the damage illegal introductions has caused while entertaining I am sure for you at the computer all you serve to do is perpetuate apathy.

And feel free to talk to those that do have a license to remove water.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by RisingRainbows

Saying we can't control what people do is a terrible attitude. We control what we do ourselves and we control what others do via laws, enforcement, awareness, and just plain effort from people who care. Throwing in the towel and saying it is out of our control is not the answer.

We have been completely ineffectual so far.

If I see someone removing live fish I will call RAP.

If we can't convince flyfishermen to bleach their waders between watersheds, I'm not sure what can be done to discourage truly malicious individuals.

[trainerdave]

No disrespect meant to the struck by lightning crowd or the lottery winners out there..We need to control their most logical upstream progress which is swimming as their downstream progress is absolutely impossible to control. It is more likely that people have moved fish as that is exactly what we have done, than birds. We trans locate (move and plant) millions of fish per year in Alberta. Birds lack the understanding or resources to do so,unless it is a flukey flop out from a pelican's bill-which is very unlikely as they generally don't eat and fly at the same time. A flop out would likely occur where they are feeding in the water. When seasonal flooding occurs throughout Alberta this is the most likely vector of transport upstream and should be of the most concern to the most people... A free for all to all fish who can make the swim. This would also be the most successful transfer as the fish are prepared for the trip on their terms. The second most likely would be the transfer of fish by people. Which logically is how this scenario began...true story actually. Millions of carp which are now feral due to their being introduced by people-not birds. The most logical,obvious and likely scenario is generally the closest to the truth..now what?

[baz]

Wow,
We have a major concern to future of our fishery in Alberta as we know it and the best we can get is justification and plausible deniability from some members?
What the heck, we are sportsman and conservationists aren't we ?
How about the individuals that are more versed in this area ie: biologists etc, have a little more positive input into this problem so we can at least try as a unified group of outdoursman to effect a solution?
Baz

[deschambault]

I earlier posted that I had caught a prussian carp in Crawling Valley because thats what the F&W guy said it was. It was later determined to be an "Oscar" fish. I googled that and found they cannot live in water below 12.9 C so sorry Oscar - if a pike doesn't eat you the lake temperature will.

[baz]

Sorry Trainerdave,
I was typing as you responded, good info.
Thanks

[schmedlap]

At this point it seems to me that it doesn't really matter how they got there. The issues now are really how to mitigate the damage, if and where possible, and how to try to prevent the bucket brigades (and/or connective systems) from spreading them farther.
If, indeed, they have any culinary value, or even value as "fishmeal", "pet food", livestock feed, soup base, etc. then, inevitably, some entrepreneurs will exploit this, if encouraged and allowed. I easily found stories, for example, from the relatively same situation in Australia via google (I am too technologically inept to post links, but I am sure someone can?) where some commercial fishers have made an opportunity out of this. They are apparently quite edible with the right catch and preserve approaches. Certainly, they are unlikely to be worse eating than Tilapia or "Ocean Perch", for example, both of which seem to sell large volumes on the market. (in fact, some of the Tilapia imported from California are raised in "off canals" which drain the tanks/ponds from harvest of farm fed striped bass, trout, and other more attractive table fare - yes, they are raised/fattened on "bass poop" - YUMMMM). Goldeye are pretty much inedible unless smoked in the right manner - there is a lucrative market in the smoked versions. If, indeed, most of the commercial fishery for whitefish is being terminated, maybe giving some of the real entrepreneurs of that category a carte blanche to harvest these buggers would result in some doing just that (?). Maybe even offer a subsidy or other monetary incentives to "go get them". The bright ones will come up with ways to catch them in commercially viable quantities, while avoiding bycatch of native species. Most anything that is given such value quickly diminishes in numbers in uncontrolled harvesting scenarios (look up "passenger pigeon"). It won't get rid of them, but it probably might inhibit their numbers (?).
And, educationally, the authorities could and should be very aggressively publicizing the harm emanating from their introduction to any "wild" or "managed" stocked water bodies. Getting them to do so could take a little public pressure - the e-mail addresses of all MLA's are published and easy to locate, even for us tech dinosaurs (?).
I think it would be a more productive discussion (debate?) if people who do or think they do (and that is not me!) have some creative insight on possible, practical, mitigation or solutions, would chime in with same. "Dissemination" is not very difficult (?).

[wwbirds]

I am the dog and bird guy so I know nothing about fish except we hope to catch some next week!
Have seen a water truck at the irrigation ditch bridge near Indus a couple times as well as what I think was the same truck accessing water from Weed lake from Glenmore trail.

[chriscosta]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

There is a difference between fish and arthrpods/Crustacea. The latter's eggs (of some species) can survive for years without water. Fish eggs, literally seconds to minutes.

Further, some arthrpod eggs may be able to pass through the digestive tract of birds without being destroyed. More likely though, the scuds grabbed hold (fish don't have the ability to grab) of a foot or burrowed in feathers, and hitched a ride.

You guys are awesome lol ...great explanation

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I am the dog and bird guy so I know nothing about fish except we hope to catch some next week!
Have seen a water truck at the irrigation ditch bridge near Indus a couple times as well as what I think was the same truck accessing water from Weed lake from Glenmore trail.

That's a heck of a big bucket.

Wouldn't want to implicate industry in this at all.

The bucket brigade is a catch-all for something which is insufficiently studied.

I don't understand the need for this phantom menace in a beige minivan, when there are so many additional means for these fish to disperse.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Sorry you do not accept the fact.

Contact your local F&W biologist and tell them you feel birds carry perch around in the air...without water... and seeding only lakes that have people visiting. How it goes against common sense and population distributions.

You are right. Crimson had nothing. Had nothing for ever and ever. Now suddenly there are fish.

Apparently the perch are up to 12 inchers...go get em. The idiot that put them there likely feels like a hero. Then in 10 years when they are all 4 inches long... will just stock your favorite lake and ruin an actual sport fishery.

whatever. Show me in my post where I said bird. Really buddy, you are a broken record.

[jeprli]

Superstition, wives tale.... sure sunny, maybe do a little field trip out east and take a better look at things. Dugouts that had carp in them for decades are doing just fine, as are pike, lake whitefish, Cisco, perch, sucker... All within same little water body, considering how small this dugout is it should have been turned into a stinky, lifeless sludge puddle by these carp(by your idea), which is not the case.

Your ability to interpret random studies to your liking is your only knowledge of this fish.

I don't have literal skills of your level, but I did spend better part of my life around these fish.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Superstition, wives tale.... sure sunny, maybe do a little field trip out east and take a better look at things. Dugouts that had carp in them for decades are doing just fine, as are pike, lake whitefish, Cisco, perch, sucker... All within same little water body, considering how small this dugout is it should have been turned into a stinky, lifeless sludge puddle by these carp(by your idea), which is not the case.

Your ability to interpret random studies to your liking is your only knowledge of this fish.

I don't have literal skills of your level, but I did spend better part of my life around these fish.

I know you are pro carp.

They are such a tragic introduction...the culprits will die knowing they have irrapairably harmed sport fishing in Alberta down to the Hudson's Bay for ever.

You are blinded by the joy in their spread by the sounds of it. You will someday know your mistake.

Those with dugouts with carp that escaped should be punished somehow...even though the damage is done.

[jeprli]

I'm for catching carp, what happened to prairie waters is tragic, it does not belong here, but it is here so I'll catch them as long as law allows. I'll say it again authorities knew about this long before some Joe fisherman reported the first catch and made it known to general public. But sadly nothing was done, and now we have a carp problem which is unstoppable. I really don't care about Prussian carp, but what bugs me is your opposing views based on nothing but random Internet data.

Who knows, one day you might be looking at them a little differently.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Do you know how many water trucks fill their tanks from water bodies containing perch in this province?

Maybe something to consider.

It's a helluva bucket brigade.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

And how much experience do you have with water trucks, their licences, their operations.

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I am the dog and bird guy so I know nothing about fish except we hope to catch some next week!
Have seen a water truck at the irrigation ditch bridge near Indus a couple times as well as what I think was the same truck accessing water from Weed lake from Glenmore trail.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

That's a heck of a big bucket.

Wouldn't want to implicate industry in this at all.

The bucket brigade is a catch-all for something which is insufficiently studied.

I don't understand the need for this phantom menace in a beige minivan, when there are so many additional means for these fish to disperse.

Honestly? You really believe water trucks are contributing to illegal stocking of fish beefella? You truly are an interesting character