Shoud handgun hunting be licened and teted?

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by billie

And you wonder why there so few decent discussions on AO.

SandF added a contrary opinion/view and got ganged. Now you have a thread full of one side only. OK, you win, congratulations.

I could agree with Sand F but then we would both be wrong. How does that help. Just because someone has an opinion and voices it does not make it valid. Life is unfair that way. In the real world not everyone wins a ribbon. If you have a point to make you better be able to back it up with some sound reasoning or facts.

[huntinstuff]

Taking responsibility for one's own actions.

When handgun hunting is implemented in Alberta, those who choose to do so will probably consider the following:

-Will I hunt with a handgun?
-What will I hunt for (deer.elk.moose.bear)
-What would be an appropriate calibre handgun for such animals? (Good lord, more threads about "best moose handgun")
-What can I afford? Will the handgun be scoped? What are the best sights? Trigger pull? Grips? Stainless or blued?
-What type of open sights should I use.?
-What is the best barrel length ?
-Should I use shooting stix with my handgun?
-Is it better to use a semi auto .22 for small game and a revolver for big game?
-Is a .500 S&W good enough for bears? How about a moose?
-Type of holster. Leather, cordura? Hip? Shoulder? Inside or outside your jacket?
-cleaning kits for the field?
-ammo pouches. leather/cordura/or carry them in your pocket?
-Type of ammo. (Too numerous to mention)
-Will I carry a handgun AND a rifle.?
-Do I carry the handgun in my hand and sling my rifle, or the other way around?
-Do I carry my handgun on the left side if Im right handed so it doesnt bang up against my sling carried rifle?
-What is the best cleaning fluid for my handgun?
-Do I carry my revolver with an empty chamber to increase safety? Do I just carry a single shot?
-Are hollow points ok to use on a grouse if you just head shoot them?
-What is my personal maximum distance I will use my handgun?


Anti gunners aren't as thoughtful. All they say is;
-I don't like it therefore it should be banned.
-Someone might get hurt.
-Im afraid to go berry picking because someone might shoot me

So the wishes of the few outshine the wishes of the many. Is that how it is gonna be? Then you are a communist.

[surface2feather]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I could agree with Sand F but then we would both be wrong. How does that help. Just because someone has an opinion and voices it does not make it valid. Life is unfair that way. In the real world not everyone wins a ribbon. If you have a point to make you better be able to back it up with some sound reasoning or facts.

What reasoning or facts have any of the pro pistol hunters stated? Did I miss something? This entire thread has been pro pistol users vs me. And all I have stated is that I don't like based on my own personal experiences and have not backed it with any statistical info. And I don't need to. I'm not trying to change your opinion or anybody elses. If anything I've said numerous times that I am willing to learn from those who understand the issue better than myself. Those 'debating' if you want to call it that haven't brought up any statistics that say pistol hunting is any better or safer, its mainly been a case of "well rifles do that too.". Its virtually been me saying I don't like it, and the rest of the group saying we want to pistol hunt and you should agree with us because your a hunter also and we need to stick together or we won't get our way. I'm following this thread trying to be more educated on the subject and I guess I've learned this. Pistols are just little rifles. Hunt away boys. I'm on your side now.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

What reasoning or facts have any of the pro pistol hunters stated? Did I miss something? This entire thread has been pro pistol users vs me. And all I have stated is that I don't like based on my own personal experiences and have not backed it with any statistical info. And I don't need to. I'm not trying to change your opinion or anybody elses. If anything I've said numerous times that I am willing to learn from those who understand the issue better than myself. Those 'debating' if you want to call it that haven't brought up any statistics that say pistol hunting is any better or safer, its mainly been a case of "well rifles do that too.". Its virtually been me saying I don't like it, and the rest of the group saying we want to pistol hunt and you should agree with us because your a hunter also and we need to stick together or we won't get our way. I'm following this thread trying to be more educated on the subject and I guess I've learned this. Pistols are just little rifles. Hunt away boys. I'm on your side now.

Using your logic, I support handgun hunting because I want to cause I like it.. What other reason do I need?

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

What reasoning or facts have any of the pro pistol hunters stated? Did I miss something? This entire thread has been pro pistol users vs me. And all I have stated is that I don't like based on my own personal experiences and have not backed it with any statistical info. And I don't need to. I'm not trying to change your opinion or anybody elses. If anything I've said numerous times that I am willing to learn from those who understand the issue better than myself. Those 'debating' if you want to call it that haven't brought up any statistics that say pistol hunting is any better or safer, its mainly been a case of "well rifles do that too.". Its virtually been me saying I don't like it, and the rest of the group saying we want to pistol hunt and you should agree with us because your a hunter also and we need to stick together or we won't get our way. I'm following this thread trying to be more educated on the subject and I guess I've learned this. Pistols are just little rifles. Hunt away boys. I'm on your side now.

For Canada, there is no stats on whether it is safer or not because it hasn't been done before. We are on even ground. The score is 0-0.

All we can do is try it. If every Albertan winds up dead from a handgun shot, and all deer walk with a limp, I guess we will call it a fail. But until then, it has to be a "go".

The only stat that I can think of is that zero big game animals have been legally harvested under authority of a license in Alberta for about 106 years.

[beansgunsghandi]

One of the issues here on AO is that discussions tend to become less discussions and more, "You're an "insert whatever term here," and I'm right 'cause." Not many people actually discuss the issues and chew through them.

Another issue that a few people on here have near unlimited time to post and tend to use that time to post repeatedly... So all-in it's often less about the issues than attacking other people and posting like a run-away chainsaw.

Somewhere around 30 percent of this theoretically very pro-hunting website don't want unrestricted handgun hunting. I expect the numbers in the general population will be about 90+ percent opposed to the idea, as am I for reasons already outlined.

And I'm sick of the "divided we fall" argument. If we all get behind handgun hunting, unlimited quad use, high-impact camping and many of the other "styles" that some favour on here then we'll be an endangered species ourselves. If we stand behind environmentally ridiculous practices or unethical hunting then we all look look like idiots. It's time for us to clean up our image a bit, not continue to reinforce bad stereotypes.

[surface2feather]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Using your logic, I support handgun hunting because I want to cause I like it.. What other reason do I need?

None. Now do I need a briefcase full of statistics to not like it? Or is my own opinion based on my own experiences not reason enough for me to dislike pistol hunting? With the possibility to accept it, or even try it if somebody was to educate me on what it is I'm missing.

[BGSH]

a gun is a gun

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

None. Now do I need a briefcase full of statistics to not like it? Or is my own opinion based on my own experiences not reason enough for me to dislike pistol hunting? With the possibility to accept it, or even try it if somebody was to educate me on what it is I'm missing.

Of course not. You don't have to eat your brussel sprouts either.

BGG

"I expect the numbers in the general population will be about 90+ percent opposed to the idea, as am I for reasons already outlined."

Based on what?

If you want to post more here go ahead. There is no quota. If you don't feel you have the time, do as I did, quit your job. You really need to get your priorities straight if you want to be taken seriously.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

And all I have stated is that I don't like based on my own personal experiences and have not backed it with any statistical info. And I don't need to.

Actually, bud, you do. Folks who believe in liberty (I mean for real, not the liberal pretend stuff) have a default position where everybody is free to do whatever the he!! floats their boat right up to the point where they are hurting someone else. It is those who would restrict the freedom of others who need to trot out the stats, not a pro-pistol guy. In my opinion, that difference is a whole lot more important. When you begin with the presumption that someone who wants to do "x" differently needs to justify the merits of what they want to do before it should be legal, you are in bad company - historically speaking. In the final analysis, it's about nothing less than the difference between liberty and tyranny regardless what big, modern words are used and regardless what the bobble heads on TV say.

I'm not trying to change your opinion or anybody elses.

There's nothing wrong with that. I'm trying to change your opinion. It's how we learn from each other.

If anything I've said numerous times that I am willing to learn from those who understand the issue better than myself.

I sincerely hope so. See above. It's important.

Those 'debating' if you want to call it that haven't brought up any statistics that say pistol hunting is any better or safer, its mainly been a case of "well rifles do that too.". Its virtually been me saying I don't like it, and the rest of the group saying we want to pistol hunt and you should agree with us because your a hunter also and we need to stick together or we won't get our way. I'm following this thread trying to be more educated on the subject and I guess I've learned this. Pistols are just little rifles. Hunt away boys. I'm on your side now.

Great. Next time you don't like something, you might consider the merits in just deciding that you won't do it. But don't ask others to justify what they want to do differently until you can see your ox getting gored. K?

ps: I do admire that you hung in and didn't go off in a huff, leaving behind a trail of labels. We see a lot of that these days. Cheers.

[elkhunter11]

First you post.

I'm not a hand gun fan at all, and I do know very very little about them.

Then you post:

Or is my own opinion based on my own experiences not reason enough for me to dislike pistol hunting?

If as you posted yourself, you know very, very little about handguns, how much experience with handguns can you possibly have?

[North of 53]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

One of the issues here on AO is that discussions tend to become less discussions and more, "You're an "insert whatever term here," and I'm right 'cause." Not many people actually discuss the issues and chew through them.

Another issue that a few people on here have near unlimited time to post and tend to use that time to post repeatedly... So all-in it's often less about the issues than attacking other people and posting like a run-away chainsaw.

Somewhere around 30 percent of this theoretically very pro-hunting website don't want unrestricted handgun hunting. I expect the numbers in the general population will be about 90+ percent opposed to the idea, as am I for reasons already outlined.

And I'm sick of the "divided we fall" argument. If we all get behind handgun hunting, unlimited quad use, high-impact camping and many of the other "styles" that some favour on here then we'll be an endangered species ourselves. If we stand behind environmentally ridiculous practices or unethical hunting then we all look look like idiots. It's time for us to clean up our image a bit, not continue to reinforce bad stereotypes.

X2
You make way to much sense. Finally someone that understands the world is not just the very small group of people that are gun owners. It is the redneck hillbilly's that post as if they lived in the real world that scare me far more than the anti gun people. Its the rednecks that will get the guns taken away. The fastest way to get the long gun registry back is to put hand guns on the same playing field as long guns.

[Redfrog]

"he fastest way to get the long gun registry back is to put hand guns on the same playing field as long guns. "

When has that ever happened?

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by North of 53

The fastest way to get the long gun registry back is to put hand guns on the same playing field as long guns.

How so?

[elkhunter11]

The fastest way to get the long gun registry back is to put hand guns on the same playing field as long guns.

The media and anti gun movements have vilified handguns for so long, that a large part of society has developed an unfounded fear of handguns. The best way to get past the fear and paranoia that some people have concerning handguns, is to show them that they are in fact just smaller firearms using less powerful cartridges. As it stands we have idiots in the government declaring firearms restricted simply because of looks. The mini 14 and the AR 15 are both semi automatic firearms that use the same cartridge, yet strictly because of looks, one is restricted, and the other is not. We need people to see this and understand just how ridiculous some of our firearms laws are. If we are too scared to campaign for changes , and we just let things remain as they are, many people will continue to remain ignorant to the facts, and we will never achieve any reform in our firearms laws. If we sat back and accepted the long gun registry as many would have us do, we wouldn't be close to seeing it gone.

[North of 53]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

How so?

Sorry but if you have to ask it means you could not understand the answer.
That may sound like a put down but there is no other way to put it.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by North of 53

Sorry but if you have to ask it means you could not understand the answer.
That may sound like a put down but there is no other way to put it.

You're kidding right?

[colin455]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

I'm not saying I don't think a pistol could do the job or any of you couldn't do the job with a pistol. Sorry if some of you are offended by how I feel. As i said earlier I'm not so stubborn or ignorant that I couldn't be taught something and be more educated on the subject. I have no intention to divide the group that we all are part of as Alberta Outdoorsmen, but I feel like that may be what some of the previous poster(s) are insinuating. I do wish for you all to be able to hunt by any means you wish to do so, and I'm sure you'd do it in a ethical, safe and law abiding manner. None of you are the topic of any of my concerns, I do feel that todays society is more full of misguided individuals, at least more so then at any other point in history-though I'm only 28 I can't say I'm speaking deom a lifetime of experience, I can say that I do watch the news and read newspapers. And sure it could be argued that all the media focus's on all the negative news with the horrible endings. I do understand that. I just believe that opening up pistol hunting would encourage more unethical occurances in our pastime from individuals that may have not been interested in hunting to begin with. I'm sorry I am not on the same page as you all, but will follow this thread in an attempt to get there.

So, let me get this straight. You're worried about unethical people doing illegal or imoral things, and are using this reasoning to restrict EVERYONE'S rights regarding handgun hunting. This is the equivelant of banning RED cars because more people break the speed limit in them. Criminals don't care about or follow rules. Hunters that take the time to get permits, tags, proper equipment are more likely to prove ethical hunters. Hunters don't shoot signs. Criminals do.
You are fairly eloquent in your writing but always manage to slide in there why handgun hunting is a bad idea. Despite that you've never tried, know anyone that has, but constantly conclude that" its a bad idea".

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The media and anti gun movements have vilified handguns for so long, that a large part of society has developed an unfounded fear of handguns.

Too true.

If we are too scared to campaign for changes , and we just let things remain as they are, many people will continue to remain ignorant to the facts, and we will never achieve any reform in our firearms laws.

Most people, including many gun owners, do not realize how closely connected are Free Speech and the right to own guns. It's the reason that the NRA has been vigilant in defending Free Speech in addition to their 2nd Amendment. When we become too scared to question liberal totems and taboos, we are lost.

Gun Control is the tip of the Progressive spear. We have dinged it in a big way. I'd like to bust the s.o.b. in small pieces, burn the pieces, gather the ashes and dump them at sea. In different places.

If we sat back and accepted the long gun registry as many would have us do, we wouldn't be close to seeing it gone.

Actually, it would be far worse than that. We might very well now be forced to buy bullets with tiny serial numbers on them costing $10 apiece and many of us would have given up our guns out of pure frustration....and, with those guns, a big chunk of the liberty that others paid for.

All the best in '12.

ps: Anybody who hears of a new gun org with a "take no prisoners" attitude, kindly send a pm. I'd like to support same in any way I can. It's time we told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by North of 53

Sorry but if you have to ask it means you could not understand the answer.
That may sound like a put down but there is no other way to put it.

Humour me. I have some parchments on my wall that should help me wade through it.

Pls. I'm honestly curious.

[North of 53]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Humour me. I have some parchments on my wall that should help me wade through it.

Pls. I'm honestly curious.

Sorry Rocky your parchments may say one thing but your posts say another. There may be no dumb questions but I am way to tired of the overly curious inquisitive idiots.

[surface2feather]

Originally Posted by colin455

So, let me get this straight. You're worried about unethical people doing illegal or imoral things, and are using this reasoning to restrict EVERYONE'S rights regarding handgun hunting. This is the equivelant of banning RED cars because more people break the speed limit in them. Criminals don't care about or follow rules. Hunters that take the time to get permits, tags, proper equipment are more likely to prove ethical hunters. Hunters don't shoot signs. Criminals do.
You are fairly eloquent in your writing but always manage to slide in there why handgun hunting is a bad idea. Despite that you've never tried, know anyone that has, but constantly conclude that" its a bad idea".

I don't intend to restrict what anybody does. I just don't support it at this time. I do feel like its a bad idea now, and am willing to be wrong and I have stated that so many times, I am sick of rewriting it.
And elkaholic, I shouldn't even reply to your last post because it says to me that you are less concerned with the issue, and more concerned with arguing. But it doesn't matter if you have had one experience or one hundred, if the majority of your experience with any subject, object, topic-whatever it is gives u a bad feeling, your not going to support it. You haven't made any effort to educate me, your more content to just argue with me.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by surface2feather

I don't intend to restrict what anybody does. I just don't support it at this time. I do feel like its a bad idea now, and am willing to be wrong and I have stated that so many times, I am sick of rewriting it.
And elkaholic, I shouldn't even reply to your last post because it says to me that you are less concerned with the issue, and more concerned with arguing. But it doesn't matter if you have had one experience or one hundred, if the majority of your experience with any subject, object, topic-whatever it is gives u a bad feeling, your not going to support it. You haven't made any effort to educate me, your more content to just argue with me.

the only why your going to get educated is go to a range and try some diffrent types of shooting for your self, and then you can make what wuold be some what of an educated opinion. but before warned its addictive and fun.

[ctd]

I live in CANADA, I am a proud CANADIAN.

We do not have the right to bear arms We dont live in the US. We trust our Goverment to protect the our intrest as a whole. Although times change as do requirements we must endevour to maintain a way of life that supports the freedoms that we have enjoyed through the sacrifice of a few privileges.

One thing that seperates Canada from other countries is the fact that we don't live in fear of our Goverment. If as a mass we do fear them then we need change.
Untill that point comes the requirment for every single person to have the RIGHT to do any and everything thing they want to do can be left to do elsewhere.
If you want to carry around a handgun for what ever reason, go move to the US or better yet move to some crappy country that you require to carry a firearm for protection.

I would love to be able to carry a handgun when I travel, I have been trained in the proper use of for defensive purposes. How many you have been trained properly?
I don't feel comfortable that people figure they have the right to carry. Or they should have the right to carry.

I also have a hard time with many trying to justify it by saying they are a great shot, and their hand gun can take down large game blah blah blah.

Most people on here would probelly wet their pants and leave a steanch so bad that the hazmat team would have to respond if they faced a situation where they would have to use a handgun or any other firearm for protection.

Some on here want to be like those to south, but how many of you would really like to be in the south.
Leave handguns for the shooting range.

If they make it less restricitive for restricted firarms then I will agree with that.

I just don't think that everyone has the need nore skill to carry around a handgun.

Mind you it would be funny to hear all the storys on how the hole in my boot got there, to hole in my door, why my holster has no end on it, how the hole in the truck door got there.

[Unregistered user]

If the mere posession of a handgun makes good people do bad things they should be banned as should all guns. Such is the logic of those who villify objects. Surf, if you don't trust other law abiding people to hunt with a pistol then perhaps you are projecting insecurities about yourself. I don't know why you worry so much, if you troll the numerous hunting/gun websites you'll find many people don't think a lever action 30-30 is adequate for deer so you won't find a revolution in hunting style if handgun hunting got the nod. It would be nice that we could be trusted to do so if we wished and also to carry one for protection when in the bush or anywhere else for that matter. We are good people we work pay our taxes and bills, we raise our families, we live according to the laws of the land. Some of us would like to see changes to certain laws that reflect the idea that good people MUST be trusted and the small segment of society that habitually commits violent crimes be locked away permanently because that scum CANNOT be trusted.

[elkhunter11]

I just don't think that everyone has the need nore skill to carry around a handgun.

We don't "need" to own firearms of any kind. We don't "need" to own vehicles that will go 100mph. We don't "need" RVs, snowmobiles,travel trailers or large fancy homes or big screen tvs. We certainly don't need alcohol or tobacco, and the deaths that their use causes every year. But this is Canada, and we have the choices to own and use those products, because Canada is still somewhat a free country.
I am Canadian, and I am proud to live in a country where I do have choices, and where I have the right to lobby the government to make changes to grant it's citizens more freedoms, and more privileges. If you don't approve of Canadians having the right to lobby the government for change, perhaps it is you that should consider moving.

[billie]

I know that many will act responsibly.

There will also be those that don’t.

I have heard the volley of lead in the distance and I know that a herd of elk in running flat out. Like the BOOM-BOOM…BOOM-BOOM-BOOM…BOOM…BOOM (Yes 7) shots from 300yds behind me at a herd I was closing on at 600yds ( I’m not against the distance if it was a single clean shot, and no, nothing died). Now we want to put handguns in these same hands.

To me, there’s a need to continually promote clean legal kills (ethical if I may) through the hunting regulations. So why should we allow handguns to hunt given this typical scenario above? (Then add the ones that can’t control the muzzle of a 3’ gun so now they wave around a short barrel). I don’t care about the talented gun owners, no problem there, but why do the talented gun owners HAVE to hunt with their handguns? Yeah, yeah, because I want to, got it, the government has its boot on my throat, got it, etc, got it, but you bring the others with you whether you like it or not. Do your rifles not work well enough?

I am not against getting rid of all the restrictions to handgun use by lawful owners of handguns. An ATT doesn’t make much sense to me. I just don’t see the gain against the restriction of “not allowing handgun hunting” except for the ones who WANT to use handguns.

No, I do not own handguns. No, they do not scare me. Yes, I’ve handled and fired many. Yes, I have taken and passed my restricted qualification. No, I doubt I would handgun hunt, as I don’t see the need. Yes, I feel the same about morons buying ANY weapon and using it if they do not have the talent do so.

And HNStuff, great post until you threw in the anti-gunner insults. Sorry, but I was expecting more.

Their was no choice for me in the poll, was there an "Undecided"?

[huntinstuff]

.......

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by North of 53

Sorry Rocky your parchments may say one thing but your posts say another. There may be no dumb questions but I am way to tired of the overly curious inquisitive idiots.

The last refuge of the uninformed bigot who is called to offer fact and reason for his position is a huffy insult. It is a poor substitute for knowledge and conversation.

One day, if you're lucky, you will realize that the most expensive thing a man can own is a closed mind. Until then, please consider spoiling your ballots.

[ctd]

elkhunter11
You make a very valid point about being able to lobby the Goverment for the abilty to do change existing laws and regulations.

I also have the right to oppose those changes. It goes either way, for or agaisnt usually wins when they have a majority.

I think Canada has been a great society through out time. For the simple fact that we do protect the masses from the few who can and will no doubt cause problems.

I am one who is willing to sacrifice a few freedoms which we never had anyways to protect those who will other wise be the problems.

You can bring up about driving, alcohol etc. I for one would like to see much stiffer penaltys for those who are the problem. That does not mean arresting the speeder or the drunk driver.
It does mean arresting the person and being strict with them when they perform an action to which they do cause the action to which they could harm or damage some one else.

Driving a vehicle at 100mph does not mean a danger to others.
Driving a vehicle that has poor brakes, improper tires and that was not designed to drive that fast is a problem. Now add heavy traffic, poor road conditions, the person is tired, they had a few drinks and they are talking on their phone while eating a hogie. Now we have a problem.

Yet some can and will be able to function well above what the average person can with out those factors. But because the average person is who our laws are here to protect then that is what we need focus on.

Maybe what we need is a two tiered system. Those who have the money and the connections can do what they want when they want.
Or we could make it so that lets say Alberta would make its own laws that may or may not be the same as Ontario, or the rest of the country. But instead look after those who are here and what they want.

The down side to that is you may be more restricted when you leave Alberta, as the province you travel to may not have the same public intrests and you could be facing jail time for what you are allowed to do here.

The best solution is to allow people to do what they want when they want as long as their direct actions do not affect innocent non involved people.
But at what point do we draw the line?
That line I think is what we as Canadians have drawn and have lived with for years.
Our Country has maintained a very high quality of life for those who choose it. We have also maintained a well balanced society. In order to maintain that we need to choose what we want. We can go to user pay only systems, get rid of taxes.
Then make it a free for all. Which although extreme would fit the bill that many on here project they would want to do.
That is untill such time as something falters and they are left holding the bag. Then it is those same people who will need and want to fall back on the system to which they choose to ignore and disentergrate.

I really wish I could carry a Pistol for personalle protection, I also wish that I could carry a AR15 in my truck all time, again for protection. I would also have a bullet proof vest with ballistic wear. A few flash bangs, smoke grenades. It seems silly to most, but to me being able to defend myself from incidents such as what happened south of Calgary a few weeks ago would be well worth it.

I am not totally disagreeing with a person who wants more abiltiy to enjoy a sport or even protect themselves. But we need to tread lightly as to what we want. Others may want more then you and they could get it. That may not be a want they should have..