New rifle for the Rangers.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

That may be so in most areas but weaponry is one area where we don't mess around. Right now the only gap is a new service pistol but nobody carry's them overseas anyway, mainly just a camp gun for inside the wire.

Procurement is not controlled by DND, if it were Canada would be the best equipped military in the world. It is controlled by Public Works and Government Services Canada which takes advice from the Department who has taken the advice from the Army, Navy and Air Force and then proceeds to louse it up. Except for weapons, we haven't gone wrong on weapons yet!

I will bow to your experience on weapons.

[recce43]

everbody has to remember this rifles are not being issued to soldiers they will be stored in their homes .. this rifles will be used for hunting, protection from wildlife .308 is a great cal for general use . the rifle had to be modified a bit for use in artic . larger trigger guard for gloved hands . protected sights .

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Fish, we are talking about federal government military procurement. I think we will be lucky if it costs as little as $6,000 each. I'm sure they aren't buying rifles. They are buying "Advanced Combat/Predator Suppression Systems" with 20 year warranty and service programs and a digitally inventoried stock of parts.

haha

you know what i still have a hard time saying it's too much to spend on a rifle.

[trooper]

Originally Posted by HighlandHeart

I've lived outside at -40 for days at a time in the Sub-Arctic and I've spent a few years carrying a C-7. Any rifle that is made mostly out of plastic is a horrible fit for a situation where it is -40. I'm glad the government is spending money on Sako rifles for rangers, in fact I'm surprised they didn't choose Norinco bolt action rifles instead.

Norinco!? They are a pile of doodoo! I had a Norc JW in 5.56 and that rifle was sent back to the dealer who gave me a complete and full refund. After that escapade, I swore never to own a piece of garbage ever again.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What do Rangers do, REALLY???? Have they ever been involved in any significant military or even Search and Rescue situation?

Funny the article talks about the rifle being required for protection against predators. No mention of military use. So seems to me the most likely predator would be polar bear. If so, I'd like something with a little more oomph than a .308.

i know guys that were found far outside coppermine by rangers the helicopters couldnt fly at the time. it was winter and they thought they were done for. i dont think this happens a lot but keeping some guys moderately busy and on call up there is probably a good idea for unpredictable things. its ridiculous though to tool up to spend 10 times the money or whatever it is to copy a moderately priced production rifle for a few copies

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What do Rangers do, REALLY???? Have they ever been involved in any significant military or even Search and Rescue situation?

Funny the article talks about the rifle being required for protection against predators. No mention of military use. So seems to me the most likely predator would be polar bear. If so, I'd like something with a little more oomph than a .308.

The rangers do duties such as search and rescue, coast watching, etc to keep our government presence secure up there.
The Ranges up there are in their own back yard so act as guides when the regulars go up to do manoeuvres, etc.
They use the rifles as a daily piece of equipment.
I have a relative that Captained them out of Yellowknife for 5 years, and would go back in a heartbeat if he was asked.
Cat

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by HighlandHeart

I lived up north for six years and I've seen lots of plastic break in extreme cold. It is hard on equipment when it is in the cold for weeks at a time and it is hard for people to understand unless they have lived in it.

Just me, but from a point of the extreme climate of the far north, looks like a piece of crap, something designed by some city slicker Wanna Be, right down to the ridiculous crest on the laminated stock. Enlarged trigger guard for winter gloves?

Grizz

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Just me, but from a point of the extreme climate of the far north, looks like a piece of crap, something designed by some city slicker Wanna Be, right down to the ridiculous crest on the laminated stock. Enlarged trigger guard for winter gloves?

Grizz

So what you are saying without any knowledge of the process whatsoever is that the rifle selected after trials by Infantry Senior NCO's, a couple of whom are gun nuts and avid hunters coupled with input from the Rangers themselves is a piece of crap???? Good thing we have this thread, I'll pass your expert opinion onto the projects WO in charge of the trial at the Infantry School in Gagetown tomorrow, maybe they'll fly you in to set the military and the Rangers who selected this rifle as the replacement straight. Please bring a few alternatives as complaining about something you have no knowledge of without a solution is asinine to say the least. It's a good piece of kit and is exactly what they wanted the end product to be.

[marxman]

on the other hand the more they spend the more the intended made in canada benefit so lets spend at least 10,000 dollars a copy and make it worthwhile

[marxman]

some people are unaware that there are different types of plastics just like different types of metals and just as potmetal would be unsuitable for a barrel certain types of plastics would be unsuitable for gun parts, skidoo skis, sleighs etc. subject to extreme cold. i would not be surprised if colt came out with a metal bolt shroud but my tikkas plastic fares better in extreme cold than armchair naysayers do im pretty sure

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by HighlandHeart

Probably keep the magazine in their parka chest pocket until they need it.

I doubt that very much, they never do with the Enfields, I doubt that the new rifle will be any different.
They might keep some clips under their parkas, but not the mag.

Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Just me, but from a point of the extreme climate of the far north, looks like a piece of crap, something designed by some city slicker Wanna Be, right down to the ridiculous crest on the laminated stock. Enlarged trigger guard for winter gloves?

Grizz

The "ridiculous" crest on the stock of the rifle has been worn with pride and honour by every Rocky Mountain, Coastal, and Northern Ranger that was ever allowed the honour.
They take their job seriously, and considered their badge anything but ridiculous.
Whether you like it or not is of no concern to them, all you have to worry about is just how fast they can get to you to get your sorry ass off a mountain, out of a downed aircraft, or rescued on the land in the high Arctic or out of the water on the Big lake after you swamp your boat.
Cat

[rco320]

Rangers are reservists. Definitely military. I've known a few, and like any group, there are some awesome people , and others not so much. They draw heavily from remote, first nations communities, and sometimes just have a different way of doing things. A lot of these guys are tough, smart outdoorsmen, who can function independently without the formal support structures conventional Canadian soldiers require. The flip side of this is they practice non conventional military discipline and routines, and can be quite hard on equipment.

My experience was with C7A1s from 20+ years ago .. they can be hard to maintain in the field in the winter ... especially if you've expended some rounds and still have a few days in the field. Stripping and cleaning outside, not fun ... too many small parts to lose with fingers that are cold and clumsy. Taking them inside was no good, they warm up, and could get condensation, and could freeze/jam when you got them back outside.

I don't know if there are similar issues with existing Enfields, I've not used mine in extended periods in the field.

I'll miss the Enfields. The one we have in the house is still my favorite (a personal, obviously not issued rifle, that my wife inherited from her uncle ... a former Ranger from BC and Saskatchewan) something about uncomplicated wood and metal and all that history.

Hope the new rifle works out.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

So what you are saying without any knowledge of the process whatsoever is that the rifle selected after trials by Infantry Senior NCO's, a couple of whom are gun nuts and avid hunters coupled with input from the Rangers themselves is a piece of crap???? Good thing we have this thread, I'll pass your expert opinion onto the projects WO in charge of the trial at the Infantry School in Gagetown tomorrow, maybe they'll fly you in to set the military and the Rangers who selected this rifle as the replacement straight. Please bring a few alternatives as complaining about something you have no knowledge of without a solution is asinine to say the least. It's a good piece of kit and is exactly what they wanted the end product to be.

Funny, I don't see any input from the end users in your list. Let's hear some comments from the people who are going to actually use them.

Grizz

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Funny, I don't see any input from the end users in your list. Let's hear some comments from the people who are going to actually use them.

Grizz

I know a few active Rangers "down North" and will make some calls.
I will also talk yo the Captain ANC see what he thinks.
He has extensive experience with all the small arms used by the Forces since the 60's and in particular the Lee Enfield that the rangers used.
I am sure he has into on this new rifle .
Cat

[sikwhiskey]

I suppose the only thing that matters is the Rangers getting the kit they want. Hope they do a big production run and sell'm to the public, might even offset some costs. I'm interested to see the specs of the finished product.

[gbart]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The "ridiculous" crest on the stock of the rifle has been worn with pride and honour by every Rocky Mountain, Coastal, and Northern Ranger that was ever allowed the honour.
They take their job seriously, and considered their badge anything but ridiculous.
Whether you like it or not is of no concern to them, all you have to worry about is just how fast they can get to you to get your sorry ass off a mountain, out of a downed aircraft, or rescued on the land in the high Arctic or out of the water on the Big lake after you swamp your boat.
Cat

Our Rangers deserve the best equipment we can give them.

I hope this procurement will be a great success and meet or exceed their expectations. The riffle that will be produced at the end of the process will be unique for their use. I think its actually a nice little rifle and won't mind having that set up. The Rangers are are proud group of people and there is a reason it carries their crest. Whoever gets issued one will be proud to have it.

[sikwhiskey]

Colt makes good barrels for their AR's, hopefully the quality remains for these rifles. Has Colt ever produced a bolt action rifle?

Edit. Colt makes m2012 precision rifle, match barrel, Timney trigger. This build Looks very interesting. May be no plastic on this gun whatsoever, as colt Canada is making bolt, receiver and barrel.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

you know what i still have a hard time saying it's too much to spend on a rifle.

You're a sick man Fish. If it shoots, you gotta have it.

[Bolete]

Originally Posted by dgitz

Ya no kidding. I can't see any of them actually keeping it in that case. They'd need to issue them each a mule to carry it around.

The Rangers store their rifles at home - hence the hard, lockable case.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Bolete

The Rangers store their rifles at home - hence the hard, lockable case.

They could lock it in a drag bag just as easily, I think.
The only time the Pelican might be handy would be in aircraft transport IMO, when on the land or in a boat space is always an issue , and Pelican take up a lot of room.
The problem with my thinking of course, is it is my opinion ( which has no bearing on what the people thought who designed this kit)
I have logged thousands of miles over the years in rough country with dog teams, snowmobiles , trucks float plains and in boats using a military prototype drag bag and some aftermarket style soft cases, but as I said, it has no bearing on a study and subsequent kit designed by somebody else!
Cat

[bb356]

.308 ... Cool !!!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by double gun

Looks like a cross between tikka, and rugers scout rifle. They would sell a dump load if they hit the market.

The press release does say that it is a commercially available hunting rifle- just which one is a mys try , I guess!
Just read the printout on the Colt Canada site.
They say it's based on the SAKO T3CTR, which is actually the TIKKA T3 CTR, as we all know!
Cat

[airbornedeerhunter]

I did some digging today and I was a little shocked at what I found. Despite the fact that the Rangers will now have a quality rifle that is incredibly well made and the end product is exactly what they and the CF wanted, the cost is shocking.

Like anything that is controlled by the government, costs balloon. Please don't blame the military, we don't make those decisions but.....

Look up the current population of Canada according to stats can, This procurement of 6500 rifles cost every Canadian man, woman and child......... $1.25

I know, I know........

[sillyak]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

I did some digging today and I was a little shocked at what I found. Despite the fact that the Rangers will now have a quality rifle that is incredibly well made and the end product is exactly what they and the CF wanted, the cost is shocking.

Like anything that is controlled by the government, costs balloon. Please don't blame the military, we don't make those decisions but.....

Look up the current population of Canada according to stats can, This procurement of 6500 rifles cost every Canadian man, woman and child......... $1.25

I know, I know........

How on earth do they turn a $1100 rifle into something that costs along the lines of a PGW?

I don't get why military procurement works the way it does with Made in Canada everything. We have dozens of allies that make arms and the amount of tax dollars thrown away doesn't help our economy any.

If procurement dollars were spent effectively we could have a far better equipped force. Or an equally equipped force with a smaller budget. Just makes no sense.

Same with the side arm procurement debacle. Just buy Glocks and Sigs and be done with it for less than 1/5 of the cost of Colt making them. Equal or better quality

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

I did some digging today and I was a little shocked at what I found. Despite the fact that the Rangers will now have a quality rifle that is incredibly well made and the end product is exactly what they and the CF wanted, the cost is shocking.

Like anything that is controlled by the government, costs balloon. Please don't blame the military, we don't make those decisions but.....

Look up the current population of Canada according to stats can, This procurement of 6500 rifles cost every Canadian man, woman and child......... $1.25
I know, I know........

What a nice innocuous way of saying that the cost is over $6,700 for EACH nice Sako hunting rifle. $1.25 for every man woman and child is 43.7 million dollars. Small potatoes in government-land.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

I did some digging today and I was a little shocked at what I found. Despite the fact that the Rangers will now have a quality rifle that is incredibly well made and the end product is exactly what they and the CF wanted, the cost is shocking.

Like anything that is controlled by the government, costs balloon. Please don't blame the military, we don't make those decisions but.....

Look up the current population of Canada according to stats can, This procurement of 6500 rifles cost every Canadian man, woman and child......... $1.25

I know, I know........

I just got off the phone with my CAF contact and he basically told me the sme thing.
When I mentioned the Pelican case , he told me that everything comes in a Pelican these days, whether or not they are actually used after issue.
I will not post what he said about the Pelican versus a drag bag versus how the rifles will actually be used!!
Cat

[airbornedeerhunter]

Sorry, I edited my post and it reduced it to a period.

yes, that is the cost!

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

What a nice innocuous way of saying that the cost is over $6,700 for EACH nice Sako hunting rifle. $1.25 for every man woman and child is 43.7 million dollars. Small potatoes in government-land.

haha actually i'm sure it was tabled in Parliament "we want to spend 44 million on rifles"

"mr speaker can we please approve this and return to real issues? i saw the NDP doing it with the BLOC during recess"

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

Sorry, I edited my post and it reduced it to a period.

yes, that is the cost!

Once the Government gets their hands on something to do with procurement , things get stoopid!
The sad thing is it's not even a real Sako, it's a Tikka!
Nice rifle, but not for me at that cost, I'm pretty sure any gunsmith could do one up for a lot cheaper!

Cat