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  #61  
Old 03-09-2017, 07:44 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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I think it comes down to this...

Long and thin goes farther in, but short and fat is where it's at
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  #62  
Old 03-09-2017, 07:54 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
It hasn't changed one bit. Fact remains that a 6.5 or 7mm bullet will have the speed, energy and performance to kill any North American animal out to 500yds with ease because of the advancement in modern bullets, the need for the heavy 30cal magnums is not as much of an issue anymore imo. I'm not saying a 30cal won't work, I'm saying the 6.5's and 7mm's are a better option. They offer excellent performance with less recoil.
They do perform well but maybe not quite that well. I wouldn't be packing either one on a dedicated Brown Bear or Grizzly hunt. That's a job for the heavy haulers .A heavy bonded core or Partition in .35 cal or larger at medium velocity brings a lot more ability to the party as I see it. That scenario is where high SD really comes in to play... larger antlered or horned Game to a lesser extent. Good thing we all have choices eh ?
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  #63  
Old 03-09-2017, 08:02 PM
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They do perform well but maybe not quite that well. I wouldn't be packing either one on a dedicated Brown Bear or Grizzly hunt. That's a job for the heavy haulers .A heavy bonded core or Partition in .35 cal or larger at medium velocity brings a lot more ability to the party as I see it. That scenario is where high SD really comes in to play... larger antlered or horned Game to a lesser extent. Good thing we all have choices eh ?
Yes it is a good thing we all have choices.

FWIW, I would gladly take a 7mm mag in the woods after brown bear without a worry, with the right projectile.
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  #64  
Old 03-09-2017, 08:16 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I think it comes down to this...

Long and thin goes farther in, but short and fat is where it's at

Nope ..


Big & Fat is where it's at
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  #65  
Old 03-09-2017, 10:56 PM
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Nope ..


Big & Fat is where it's at
x2 ... i got me some of those 320gr wumpers and do they ever get attention on impact
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  #66  
Old 03-09-2017, 10:56 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I'm not saying the 30 cal is going anywhere, I'm saying the smaller calibers are making leaps and bounds with bullet BC's and performance.

A 175gr 7mm bullet Hornady ELD-X has a BC of .689, that bullet propelled out of the same size case as that of a 178gr 30 cal ELD-X bullet with a BC of .552 will kick less and hit harder, even with a 220gr bullet the 30 cal is at .663 BC.

The smaller diameter bullets are getting the job done with less recoil, more penetration, and flatter trajectories with modern bullet design, and because of this I think more and more hunters can see you don't need a big bore, unless you enjoy them for what they are, which I totally understand.
The thing that some fail to grasp is that BC doesn't kill .. it simply aids with delivery. Sectional density and bullet construction take over at the point of impact and that's what is doing the killing. With two bullets of the same construction, the one with the higher SD will penetrate further and be the most effective . At 2000 fps terminal velocity a .30 cal. 220 gr bullet will easily outperform a 7mm with an identically constructed 175 gr bullet at the same terminal velocity due to a higher SD ... and with about the same amount of recoil.
With identical bullet weights and identical terminal velocities the 7mm 175 gr will outperform the 30 cal as it will have the higher SD. That is why many choose to use "heavy for caliber bullets ", regardless of their construction.
Upon entry, bullet momentum (mass in motion) trumps velocity and provides the force for penetration- kind of like the slower moving bowling pin vs a faster moving golf ball sized bowling pin . Which one will be most likely to penetrate through a 12 inch solid wall ? New bullet designs do make some smaller caliber bullets a bit more capable of penetration but those same bullet designs are available in all the larger calibers as well. They simply are not required. Like they say, there is no replacement for displacement, and never will be in the world of bullets.

On the other end there is this thing called recoil. Most of us don't care for it
and we welcome the new opportunities to utilize smaller cartridges and their more efficient bullets. A fair trade-off, but not always the best one. My take anyway.
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  #67  
Old 03-09-2017, 11:39 PM
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x2 ... i got me some of those 320gr wumpers and do they ever get attention on impact

Yes they do ! A few more of those rounds and we'll have to replace the berm at our range. I really appreciate the 10lb Sako with that bullet.
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  #68  
Old 03-10-2017, 06:12 AM
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I have a few 30 cal's in the safe, and that's where they'll stay with the exception of my m70 Featherweight in 308, I'm going to have that one turned into either a 7-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor so I'll actually use it. I have no use for my 30 cal's when I have guns in the 6mm-7mm range that get the job done with efficiency and authority, and are a pleasure to shoot.
This site has a buy and sell, if you want to test your theory about them becoming obsolete, stick them on there and see how long they last!
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  #69  
Old 03-10-2017, 07:50 AM
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At 2000 fps terminal velocity a .30 cal. 220 gr bullet will easily outperform a 7mm with an identically constructed 175 gr bullet at the same terminal velocity due to a higher SD ... and with about the same amount of recoil.
Given that both bullets will have a similar B.C. and a similar muzzle velocity to produce the same impact velocity, physics tells us that the 220gr bullet has to produce significantly more recoil.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:51 AM
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This site has a buy and sell, if you want to test your theory about them becoming obsolete, stick them on there and see how long they last!
I'm not saying guys don't want them, I'm saying that the 6.5's and 7's are a better option at normal ranges, a lot of people don't understand though and think it has to kick you hard in order to have effect on the animal.

I'm only keeping 2 of my 30cals and that's just for sentimental reasons, the other I am having rebarreled and I guarantee it's going to sell 10x faster in its new chambering.

Salavee,

You missed a couple things. Metals used in bullets have different properties, Some are heavy, some are light, some hold together and some blow apart. New ways of thinking have lead to new bullet design and even though a bullet starts life out long and skinny, it's length and speed give it the ability to make a big hole because it's pedals are bigger.

So, while SD is one way of getting penetration, bullet design is another way. The difference between the 6.5cal and the 30cal is BC which carries the kinetic energy down range in relatively similar weights. If you have a bullet of equal weight and design for both calibers, the 6.5 will have a higher BC and penetrate deeper, and because the bullet is longer it will have bigger pedals when it opens up, it'll also carry its speed longer so it stays in its performance zone farther out.

Of course I'm only talking about normal hunting range which most hunters feel comfortable shooting. If you're going to be shooting 800yds+, that's where the 30cal+ bullets in a long bullet with a high BC will have a clear edge over the 6.5's and at the outer reaches the 7's, but that takes a lot of powder to drive them those distances, heavy gun, not the best to be packing around.
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  #71  
Old 03-10-2017, 07:55 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Given that both bullets will have a similar B.C. and a similar muzzle velocity to produce the same impact velocity, physics tells us that the 220gr bullet has to produce more recoil.
note ... "about the same recoil" Anything else ?
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:56 AM
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Given that both bullets will have a similar B.C. and a similar muzzle velocity to produce the same impact velocity, physics tells us that the 220gr bullet has to produce significantly more recoil.
Not to mention will have a lower BC so that 2000fps with a 220gr 30cal will come a lot sooner than the 175gr 7mm bullet.
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  #73  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:04 AM
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note ... "about the same recoil" Anything else ?
So an increase in recoil of around 30%, is about the same to you? I consider that to be a significant increase.
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  #74  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:43 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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So an increase in recoil of around 30%, is about the same to you? I consider that to be a significant increase.

Even using your 30% number it still amounts to about 6 ft lbs. Significant ?
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Old 03-10-2017, 08:50 AM
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Not really about anything, other than what I use is better than what you use.
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  #76  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:02 AM
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Even using your 30% number it still amounts to about 6 ft lbs. Significant ?
Using a 9lb ready to hunt rifle, which is pretty average for most hunters, and 3000fps muzzle velocity, I calculate 10lbs difference. To me that is significant, especially if the person is already near their limit for recoil with the 175gr bullet. That brings us right back to why Kurt started this thread, which is that a person can achieve satisfactory performance, with smaller diameter bullets, while dealing with less recoil.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:06 AM
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Not really about anything, other than what I use is better than what you use.
No, it's about what I used to use isn't as good as what I use now, or should I say as good as what I used to use but with less recoil.
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  #78  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:13 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I'm not saying guys don't want them, I'm saying that the 6.5's and 7's are a better option at normal ranges, a lot of people don't understand though and think it has to kick you hard in order to have effect on the animal.

I'm only keeping 2 of my 30cals and that's just for sentimental reasons, the other I am having rebarreled and I guarantee it's going to sell 10x faster in its new chambering.

Salavee,

You missed a couple things. Metals used in bullets have different properties, Some are heavy, some are light, some hold together and some blow apart. New ways of thinking have lead to new bullet design and even though a bullet starts life out long and skinny, it's length and speed give it the ability to make a big hole because it's pedals are bigger.

So, while SD is one way of getting penetration, bullet design is another way. The difference between the 6.5cal and the 30cal is BC which carries the kinetic energy down range in relatively similar weights. If you have a bullet of equal weight and design for both calibers, the 6.5 will have a higher BC and penetrate deeper, and because the bullet is longer it will have bigger pedals when it opens up, it'll also carry its speed longer so it stays in its performance zone farther out.

Of course I'm only talking about normal hunting range which most hunters feel comfortable shooting. If you're going to be shooting 800yds+, that's where the 30cal+ bullets in a long bullet with a high BC will have a clear edge over the 6.5's and at the outer reaches the 7's, but that takes a lot of powder to drive them those distances, heavy gun, not the best to be packing around.
The difference you note between the 6.5 and 30 cal with the same bullet weight is a direct reference to the huge difference in SD .. highly in favor of the 6.5 when it comes to penetration. Using the same bullet design and construction, the .30 cal. is not in the same league due to it's larger diameter and overall bullet length. Increase the .30 cal bullet weight
and it's SD will increase accordingly.

Here is a link that will indicate the value of a higher SD. It's only a tool.
Use whatever terminal velocity you wish, but keep them equal.
http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:19 AM
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The difference you note between the 6.5 and 30 cal with the same bullet weight is a direct reference to the huge difference in SD .. highly in favor of the 6.5 when it comes to penetration. Using the same bullet design and construction, the .30 cal. is not in the same league due to it's larger diameter and overall bullet length. Increase the .30 cal bullet weight
and it's SD will increase accordingly.

Here is a link that will indicate the value of a higher SD. It's only a tool.
Use whatever terminal velocity you wish, but keep them equal.
http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator

Yes, but in order for the 30cal to match the sectional density of the 6.5 recoil goes way up. If you like heavy recoil that's fine, but recoil negatively affects accuracy no matter how big or bad you think you are. That's why guys who are shooting 338 lapuas aren't doing it with a Kimber Montana or Tikka T3 Lite.

With modern bullets we are getting knock down power in smaller packages.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:22 AM
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Ok ... I see it's coming down to tolerable recoil. That is a different topic altogether and too much of a variable to even consider when it comes to discussing bullet performance.
As with other variables, to each his own.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:34 AM
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Yes, but in order for the 30cal to match the sectional density of the 6.5 recoil goes way up. If you like heavy recoil that's fine, but recoil negatively affects accuracy no matter how big or bad you think you are. That's why guys who are shooting 338 lapuas aren't doing it with a Kimber Montana or Tikka T3 Lite.

With modern bullets we are getting knock down power in smaller packages.
You did mention recoil over 60 posts ago on the first page, but apparently, some people overlooked that.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:44 AM
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The deer are getting tougher and the shooters are getting softer? Surely you guys can handle the recoil of a 308.

As to the original post; Is the advancement of bullet design making the 30 caliber obsolete as far as hunting is concerned? I would say the exact opposite is true.

30 or 40 years ago there was 180 grain SP or PSP to choose from in 30-06 at the vast majority of stores. On the odd occasion a person might see some 150 Sabre Tips. The quality control was so poor you could feel a difference in recoil on several rounds per box. Everyone thought that one day they would pick up a custom "whiz bang" with pin point accuracy.

Today there is dozens of factory loads to choose from in numerous weights and construction. The QC and accuracy is generally as good as hand loads. I use to pine over a custom 280 but with modern loads my 06 will do everything a 280 can do and more.

As far as hunting is concerned, the vast majority of people shoot less than a box a year, shoot at less than 200 yards, couldn't hit a mini van at 300+, choose a rifle over the cartridge, shoot whatever their father/grandfather/uncle shot and have never heard of or handled a 6.5 Creedmoor.

People forget that tradition, sales and marketing trump facts and ballistics every time. We are basically a part (and a very small part) of the US market. I would bet the number of 30-06/308 sold in the US each year would out sell the entire Canadian market combined. That's what they want, and that is what we are going to find on our store shelves. They just kill stuff dead, and that is all most are concerned about.
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  #83  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:48 AM
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love the good old 308
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:48 AM
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Recoil is a manageable component of shooting any rifle or caliber. To some, recoil is less tolerable than it is to others. Choose what fits best and make the most out of it. No big deal, but trying to turn a high performance
sportscar into a heavy duty hauler probably won't work.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:57 AM
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Ok ... I see it's coming down to tolerable recoil. That is a different topic altogether and too much of a variable to even consider when it comes to discussing bullet performance.
As with other variables, to each his own.
I'm not so sure it's tolerable rather than preferable. As the title suggests, with modern bullets a 30cal isn't required to have good knock down power, we are seeing that with lighter calibers which means lighter recoil, which translates into more accuracy.

I've owned plenty of 30cal magnums, and even though none of them hurt to shoot, I enjoyed shooting my 6, 6.5, and 7's more. I also found that my 30cal magnums had absolutely no more killing ability out to 500yds than my 7mm's did, zero.

Another thing I noticed is when I would shoot my 300wsm in a Finnlight on the bench I would start to develop a flinch around the third set and have to make a conscious effort to ensure I wouldn't flinch. On the bench it doesn't matter, it's easy to control, in the field it could be a different scinario.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:06 AM
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Today there is dozens of factory loads to choose from in numerous weights and construction. The QC and accuracy is generally as good as hand loads. I use to pine over a custom 280 but with modern loads my 06 will do everything a 280 can do and more.
I'm not sure about the 30-06 being able to do all the 280 can do and more, but if it is more it would come at the expense of added recoil, and if you are going to add more recoil I would rather be shooting a 7mm magnum and see a real bump in performance above the 280 compared to what you'll get with a 30-06 with the same recoil as the 7mm mag.

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  #87  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:24 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I currently shoot just about every caliber niche between .20 and .366. Each have their place and some almost duplicate another in performance but I wouldn't frown on any of them. When it comes to certain applications, I have my preferences, just as yourself and all others do. Again, it's down to options and choices. Whatever works, works.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:32 AM
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The thing that some fail to grasp is that BC doesn't kill .. it simply aids with delivery. Sectional density and bullet construction take over at the point of impact and that's what is doing the killing. With two bullets of the same construction, the one with the higher SD will penetrate further and be the most effective . At 2000 fps terminal velocity a .30 cal. 220 gr bullet will easily outperform a 7mm with an identically constructed 175 gr bullet at the same terminal velocity due to a higher SD ... and with about the same amount of recoil.
With identical bullet weights and identical terminal velocities the 7mm 175 gr will outperform the 30 cal as it will have the higher SD. That is why many choose to use "heavy for caliber bullets ", regardless of their construction.
Upon entry, bullet momentum (mass in motion) trumps velocity and provides the force for penetration- kind of like the slower moving bowling pin vs a faster moving golf ball sized bowling pin . Which one will be most likely to penetrate through a 12 inch solid wall ? New bullet designs do make some smaller caliber bullets a bit more capable of penetration but those same bullet designs are available in all the larger calibers as well. They simply are not required. Like they say, there is no replacement for displacement, and never will be in the world of bullets.

On the other end there is this thing called recoil. Most of us don't care for it
and we welcome the new opportunities to utilize smaller cartridges and their more efficient bullets. A fair trade-off, but not always the best one. My take anyway.
I think it's fair to say that when it comes to bullets, the manner in which it is delivered means everything to how it kills. If I take a handful of bullets and throw them at a moose, the speed at which they impact that moose versus being fired from a rifle is quite different, and I think we'd both agree that those bullets I throw won't kill very well. So "simply aid[ing] with delivery" directly impacts killing effectiveness in a significant way.

A bullet that has a high BC will retain more if its velocity, and impact the animal going faster than a bullet with a lower BC, assuming equal muzzle velocity.

Let's take, for example, the new Hornady 7mm 180gr ELD-M (a simple C&C, similar to the Nosler BT, SST, etc), with it's 0.796 G1 BC, started at 2700 fps, and see how it compares to a .308" 180gr RN and a 180gr Horn SP started at the same velocity. At 300 meters in the atmospheric conditions I usually shoot at, the 7mm 180 ELD impacts the animals at 2376 fps- more than fast enough to expand properly and hit with a wallop. The .308 180gr RN, with a G1 BC of 0.241, impacts at 300 meters with 1717 fps, assuming all else is equal. That is still likely fast enough to expand properly, but expansion wouldn't be nearly as violent as if it impacted 660 fps faster. The 180gr Horn SP, BC 0.425, impacts 300 meters with 2111 fps. If we go a little further out to 450 meters, the 7mm 180 ELD hits at 2218 fps, the .308" 180RN hits at 1327 fps, and the .308" 180gr SP arrives with 1841 fps of velocity. Those differences are starting to become significant with regards to expansion characteristics and the resultant tissue damage done by each of the bullets. So BC DOES affect the damage a bullet does, and its killing ability.

When it comes to killing effectiveness, bullet construction has a much greater impact than SD. This has been established by industry experts, and is borne out in my own experience as a hunter and guide, as well. In the hundreds of BG animals I've seen die, the trend that I've noticed is that a lighter bullet of controlled expansion, whether a Nosler PT, Barnes TTSX, etc, penetrates deeper and more reliably than a heavier C&C. Now that doesn't necessarily means than a controlled-expansion bullet kills more effectively than other designs like a Berger VLD or other C&C design.

These days too much emphasis is placed on ultimate penetration, to the point of people convincing themselves that they have to use bullets and loads that are capable of penetrating the entire chest cavity two or three times over, of whatever animal they're shooting. The more vital tissue a bullet destroys, the more effective it will be, over the long run, in killing. The Berger VLD, while penetration can't compare to bullets like the Barnes TTSX, typically kills quicker than almost any other bullet design, with solid non-CNS chest hits. That is because it penetrates without expansion for a few inches, and then comes unglued like a grenade in the chest. Exit wounds are rare, and destruction of vitals is usually extensive. Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with SD, as Berger VLD bullets function this way in general, whether using one of medium-weight-for-caliber, or heavy.

All that doesn't mean that the Berger VLD is the ideal bullet. When choosing penetration vs. rapid expansion qualities in a bullet, a guy needs to determine how much penetration is "enough" for the animals and types of shots that he usually takes, or is willing to take. For the hunter unwilling to take stem-to-stern shots, and is selective about taking broadside or slightly quartering shots, then he doesn't need to use a bullet that falls toward the extreme penetration end of the spectrum.

At the end of the day, given equally constructed bullets of equal caliber started at equal velocity, a higher starting SD does typically result in greater penetration, but that doesn't mean that it kills any better than other bullets of lesser SD.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:40 AM
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If you're going to be shooting 800yds+, that's where the 30cal+ bullets in a long bullet with a high BC will have a clear edge over the 6.5's and at the outer reaches the 7's, but that takes a lot of powder to drive them those distances, heavy gun, not the best to be packing around.
A 7mm 195gr bullet with a 0.755 BC, or a 180gr bullet with 0.796 BC, is tough for any .30 cal bullet to whoop. Heck, even a lowly 147gr 6.5 bullet with a 0.697 BC ain't far behind the biggest, heaviest .30 cal bullets, 800 yard shots included...

If any of those bullets arrive in the vitals with enough velocity to initiate proper expansion, it's game over for any animal in NA.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:41 AM
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I've owned plenty of 30cal magnums, and even though none of them hurt to shoot, I enjoyed shooting my 6, 6.5, and 7's more. I also found that my 30cal magnums had absolutely no more killing ability out to 500yds than my 7mm's did, zero.
That's the summary of the matter for me as well.
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