" Idle No More"

[Dakota369]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

As I said in a previous post, Indians and their misery is a very profitable industry in this country.

I would like to hear an explanation as to how this can be. Sure lots of lawyers make money from constantly arguing and interpreting the many treaties that exist...... and of course politicians make huge buck arguing and posturing in regard to native issue's, but I really don't see where "Native misery " is an industry....... so perhaps you can clarify justify this statement......

Thanks

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Do you seriously advocate our breaking a contract?

What sort of man makes a promise and then breaks it, for that is what a contract really is. A promise in writing.

It is clear that the courts take such promises very seriously, I sure don't see them breaking any contracts of this nature. So why even suggest such a thing when it is so obvious that it will never happen and will almost certainly create an argument on this site.

I swear the anti hunting fraternity must be happy tonight.

Sure he does....remember the old saying? "white man speaks with forked tongue" it says a lot about our culture when our governments make a promise and then will break that promise for greed or the almighty dollar. Don't be surprised if armed conflicts become the norm in our country if this continues.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Do you seriously advocate our breaking a contract?

What sort of man makes a promise and then breaks it, for that is what a contract really is. A promise in writing.

It is clear that the courts take such promises very seriously, I sure don't see them breaking any contracts of this nature. So why even suggest such a thing when it is so obvious that it will never happen and will almost certainly create an argument on this site.

I swear the anti hunting fraternity must be happy tonight.

Yup, I do believe that! That contract should be shredded. We should look at what's best for all canadians ..... I believe in equality and equal opportunity, regardless of race, sex or religion .

Are you saying that you believe in special privileges.

And what does anti hunting have to do with this?

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

yup, i do believe that! That contract should be shredded. We should look at what's best for all canadians ..... I believe in equality and equal opportunity, regardless of race, sex or religion .

Are you saying that you believe in special privileges.

And what does anti hunting have to do with this?

+100%

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Gord

How many of you believe that the native bands standing in the way of this pipeline would be willing to fore go their funding they receive from the government in exchange for crippling much of the rest of Canada? I bet their tune change if it was presented that way because I believe they are less stewards of the land than stewards of government handouts.


Gord

Lots of the issue around this Idle No More crap is about government handouts. Why do you think that Band Leader is on hunger strike? It is not because she is concerned about the environment, but more because she wants more government hand outs to make up for her and her predecessors poor fiscal control.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

I would like to hear an explanation as to how this can be. Sure lots of lawyers make money from constantly arguing and interpreting the many treaties that exist...... and of course politicians make huge buck arguing and posturing in regard to native issue's, but I really don't see where "Native misery " is an industry....... so perhaps you can clarify justify this statement......

Thanks

Spend some time around nearly any reserve and you will see the native misery industry at action. It works from the Native Band office.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Yup, I do believe that! That contract should be shredded. We should look at what's best for all canadians ..... I believe in equality and equal opportunity, regardless of race, sex or religion .

Are you saying that you believe in special privileges.

And what does anti hunting have to do with this?

The native bands should shred those documents and send all of you back to your ancestral homelands...obviously you have a false sense of entitlement if you think ripping up treaties suddenly gives you legal authority to occupy native lands. :-)

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Lots of the issue around this Idle No More crap is about government handouts. Why do you think that Band Leader is on hunger strike? It is not because she is concerned about the environment, but more because she wants more government hand outs to make up for her and her predecessors poor fiscal control.

From what I read she wants a meeting with government officials...the news reports never said anything about handouts or any other poison your
spewing. :-)

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

The native bands should shred those documents and send all of you back to your ancestral homelands...obviously you have a false sense of entitlement if you think ripping up treaties suddenly gives you legal authority to occupy native lands. :-)

Where I came from, if you were invaded, you were exterminated. Not given more rights. maybe look at history from around the world, and see if you would prefer other treatment from other histories.

I agree with you! The bands should " try " to sends back! ...... But then who will pay for everything for them! ....lol

And seriously, this " our " land, like everyone's ! Maybe you should start seeing it the way most Canadians do!

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

The native bands should shred those documents and send all of you back to your ancestral homelands...obviously you have a false sense of entitlement if you think ripping up treaties suddenly gives you legal authority to occupy native lands. :-)

I think his position is he feels he has paid enough for those native lands. How long do we non natives need to continue to pay for mistakes of our forefathers?

I have posted before that I support natives to carry on their traditions of hunting and fishing on the reserves, but I do not want to continue to support all those who abuse those rights and then expect more and more because they have squandered the money.

The Attawapiskat reserve issue is a prime example of squandering the money provided to them. Why did they not upkeep the houses there? Why do those living there not take some self interest in upkeeping the homes they live in? Why is it the town down the road that does not get anywhere near the same funds can have clean water, proper roads, decent housing, yet have substantially less money to do it with? This is not just an issue with this one reserve, but with most reserves. The reserves that are better are due to better management. And who manages these reserves? Oh right, natives. That is where I place most of the blame for the poor conditions the natives blame the government for.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Do you seriously advocate our breaking a contract?

What sort of man makes a promise and then breaks it, for that is what a contract really is. A promise in writing.

It is clear that the courts take such promises very seriously, I sure don't see them breaking any contracts of this nature. So why even suggest such a thing when it is so obvious that it will never happen and will almost certainly create an argument on this site.

I swear the anti hunting fraternity must be happy tonight.

Times were VERY different when our contract was written up, why is it so hard to understand this? The whole system is corrupt, not only on the white man side.

Technology has changed, and so have the faces of Canadians. I agree it's time to update (scrap) the treaty agreement. I think it's time ALL Canadians stand up for our rights and stop the corruption.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

From what I read she wants a meeting with government officials...the news reports never said anything about handouts or any other poison your
spewing. :-)

Really?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle6734968/
Ms. Spence wants to discuss the treaty that was signed in the first decade of the last century that covered a broad swath of Northern Ontario, including her own impoverished reserve. It promised money, education and health care in exchange for sharing the land.

Sounds like handouts to me.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Where I came from, if you were invaded, you were exterminated. Not given more rights. maybe look at history from around the world, and see if you would prefer other treatment from other histories.

I agree with you! The bands should " try " to sends back! ...... But then who will pay for everything for them! ....lol

And seriously, this " our " land, like everyone's ! Maybe you should start seeing it the way most Canadians do!

Natives were not exterminated...it's history. Treaties were made so we could live alongside each other in peace....tear up the treaties and things go back to you living within an occupied territory. Much like India and Hong Kong were...now the rightful rulers of those lands run things. Be careful what you wish for. :-)

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Really?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle6734968/
Ms. Spence wants to discuss the treaty that was signed in the first decade of the last century that covered a broad swath of Northern Ontario, including her own impoverished reserve. It promised money, education and health care in exchange for sharing the land.

Sounds like handouts to me.

So a person that negotiates their pay packet has negotiated getting hand outs...youR thinking is pretty twisted mister. :-)

[unclebuck]

"Idle no more". It would be kind of cool if they could find the throttle, move it forward, put their asses in gear, and contribute to Canadian society, rather than be on idle waiting for someone to hook up to them again to tow them further!

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Natives were not exterminated...it's history. Treaties were made so we could live alongside each other in peace....tear up the treaties and things go back to you living within an occupied territory. Much like India and Hong Kong were...now the rightful rulers of those lands run things. Be careful what you wish for. :-)

Then I guess, there would be a fight to settle who would take control I don't like your chances... And living alongside doesn't mean someone getting more...alongside to me means equal... Now how do I say " equal "in native?

[Dakota369]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Spend some time around nearly any reserve and you will see the native misery industry at action. It works from the Native Band office.

I was asking for some sort of idea as to how the government and non-natives make money off of this alleged "native misery". (and I mean besides the lawyers and the government officials as I mentioned)

As for the lawyers and the judges....... when a native is in court due to breaking the law they are as close to equal to everyone else as they ever get really....... (and even then they do have the Native advantage....)

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

The native bands should shred those documents and send all of you back to your ancestral homelands...obviously you have a false sense of entitlement if you think ripping up treaties suddenly gives you legal authority to occupy native lands. :-)

My ancestors came to this country and fought to stay here.



I could care less what someone else (English Monarchy) signed with your ancestors.

Actually, I would prefer to live as equals with equal rights and privileges in this day and age but if push came to shove.......I'd be all in, just like the guys in the pic. And like Potty said, I like my chances.

Sorry if my views contribute to the inevitable closing of this thread, but this "idle no more" type of attitude is bs in my view.

You get to say your crap, so I will spew mine. Fair is fair. You want to hang onto ancient history, let us not limit it then.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

So a person that negotiates their pay packet has negotiated getting hand outs...youR thinking is pretty twisted mister. :-)

Not just mine then:

http://taxpayer.com/federal/new-jaw-...ve-pay-numbers

http://taxpayer.com/federal/money-wasted

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/C..._Change%29.pdf

http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/time-t...ders-failings/

http://www.orwelltoday.com/indiansalarychiefs.shtml

http://www.primetimecrime.com/contri...40420pifer.htm

Not all the problems on the reserve are caused directly by Natives, but they sure have not helped themselves with how they treat one another. This only causes further problems on the reserves.

And this is especially interesting read. It discusses the problems of Native self government and why it is so expensive.
http://www.csls.ca/events/2012/CEA.Graham.pdf

1. First Nation governments are huge, perhaps
the largest local governments in the world

2. First Nations governments lack the array
of checks and balances that governments
in other parts of Canada face

3. The number of politicians per capita
knows no parallel in Canada and
many are full-time and salaried

4. There are a startling number of regulatory
voids relating to land – environmental
protection, natural resource management,
construction standards and others

5. First Nations are highly dependent on transfers
from federal government departments and with
very few exceptions generate no revenue from
taxing their citizens or charging user fees

6. The collective landholding system as
set out in the Indian Act is a major
brake on economic development

7. Most First Nation communities are too
small for efficient delivery of many of the
services for which they have responsibility

8. Within First Nations, individuals
have varying rights, a situation that
promotes disunity and frustration

9. The history of colonization has led to
dependence and a strong sense of
victimization for many First Nations

10. First Nations and the federal and
provincial governments have major
differences on fundamental matters
such as treaty and Aboriginal rights,
fiduciary duties and funding obligations

11. The federal government, the First
Nations’ most important “partner,” is
highly siloed with little capacity for a
differentiated, whole-of-community
approach to First Nation development

And there are some interesting statements from the article:
Making the federal government bear
responsibility for improving economic
conditions on Indian reservations may
be good political rhetoric, but it is bad economic strategy. When tribes take
responsibility for what happens on reservations
and have the practical power
and capacity to act on their own behalf,
they start down the road to improving
reservation conditions.

Outside parties are incapable of “fixing” many if not most of these
dysfunctional elements. Three ingredients are necessary for
development to occur: inspired and sustained community-level
leadership, community support and a competent set of managers.

It would be fair to state that all First
Nation communities have experienced
serious forms of divisions amongst themselves
as a result of elections. Not only
do we have divided loyalties between
clans but these election systems have
divided families, brother against brother,
sister against sister, parents against their
own children, and elders against elders.
The youth are confused, frustrated and
exasperated as they witness these incredible
often nasty events in the selection
of leaders.7

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

I was asking for some sort of idea as to how the government and non-natives make money off of this alleged "native misery". (and I mean besides the lawyers and the government officials as I mentioned)

As for the lawyers and the judges....... when a native is in court due to breaking the law they are as close to equal to everyone else as they ever get really....... (and even then they do have the Native advantage....)

My point is that the natives have a hierarchy on the reserve, and some benefit by this at the expense of others.

The judicial system is in my opinion two faced. Some natives do get let off and are free to embark on native run rehabilitation, and others who face similar charges would face harsh jail time. I have no love of our court system and the biases I see in it. But this I think would be best discussed in another thread.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

My ancestors came to this country and fought to stay here.



I could care less what someone else (English Monarchy) signed with your ancestors.

Actually, I would prefer to live as equals with equal rights and privileges in this day and age but if push came to shove.......I'd be all in, just like the guys in the pic. And like Potty said, I like my chances.

Sorry if my views contribute to the inevitable closing of this thread, but this "idle no more" type of attitude is bs in my view.

You get to say your crap, so I will spew mine. Fair is fair. You want to hang onto ancient history, let us not limit it then.

They kicked those hard hats out many moons ago!! :-).

Why do you think your living in a substandard unequal Canada? That is what really amazes me, this woe to me attitude. It almost sounds like you would like to trade places in life with a native? They have it pretty good, you can tell so many are in jail, so many are in foster care, so many are hopelessly unemployed and undereducated.....one heck of a thing to be jealous of. IMHO :-)

[Matt L.]

So then why the hell don't they do something about it instead if bitching to the government that they aren't giving them enough?

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

Not just mine then:

http://taxpayer.com/federal/new-jaw-...ve-pay-numbers

http://taxpayer.com/federal/money-wasted

http://www.caledoniawakeupcall.com/C..._Change%29.pdf

http://harveyoberfeld.ca/blog/time-t...ders-failings/

http://www.orwelltoday.com/indiansalarychiefs.shtml

http://www.primetimecrime.com/contri...40420pifer.htm

Not all the problems on the reserve are caused directly by Natives, but they sure have not helped themselves with how they treat one another. This only causes further problems on the reserves.

And this is especially interesting read. It discusses the problems of Native self government and why it is so expensive.
http://www.csls.ca/events/2012/CEA.Graham.pdf

1. First Nation governments are huge, perhaps
the largest local governments in the world

2. First Nations governments lack the array
of checks and balances that governments
in other parts of Canada face

3. The number of politicians per capita
knows no parallel in Canada and
many are full-time and salaried

4. There are a startling number of regulatory
voids relating to land – environmental
protection, natural resource management,
construction standards and others

5. First Nations are highly dependent on transfers
from federal government departments and with
very few exceptions generate no revenue from
taxing their citizens or charging user fees

6. The collective landholding system as
set out in the Indian Act is a major
brake on economic development

7. Most First Nation communities are too
small for efficient delivery of many of the
services for which they have responsibility

8. Within First Nations, individuals
have varying rights, a situation that
promotes disunity and frustration

9. The history of colonization has led to
dependence and a strong sense of
victimization for many First Nations

10. First Nations and the federal and
provincial governments have major
differences on fundamental matters
such as treaty and Aboriginal rights,
fiduciary duties and funding obligations

11. The federal government, the First
Nations’ most important “partner,” is
highly siloed with little capacity for a
differentiated, whole-of-community
approach to First Nation development

And there are some interesting statements from the article:
Making the federal government bear
responsibility for improving economic
conditions on Indian reservations may
be good political rhetoric, but it is bad economic strategy. When tribes take
responsibility for what happens on reservations
and have the practical power
and capacity to act on their own behalf,
they start down the road to improving
reservation conditions.

Outside parties are incapable of “fixing” many if not most of these
dysfunctional elements. Three ingredients are necessary for
development to occur: inspired and sustained community-level
leadership, community support and a competent set of managers.

It would be fair to state that all First
Nation communities have experienced
serious forms of divisions amongst themselves
as a result of elections. Not only
do we have divided loyalties between
clans but these election systems have
divided families, brother against brother,
sister against sister, parents against their
own children, and elders against elders.
The youth are confused, frustrated and
exasperated as they witness these incredible
often nasty events in the selection
of leaders.7

And the ones holding the ultimate responsibility for what is going on are in Ottawa and our provincial legislatures....they are who I hold responsible for ensuring public monies are spent properly and not consumed in a corruption riddled entity of their creation...whether that be a band office or a ministry.

Tell me there is no corruption in our governments... LOL. ;-)

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by unclebuck

"Idle no more". It would be kind of cool if they could find the throttle, move it forward, put their asses in gear, and contribute to Canadian society, rather than be on idle waiting for someone to hook up to them again to tow them further!

Do you even know how many do or don't contribute to Canadian society or is it easier to hold onto misguided and misinformed views by lumping them all into one big stereotype? Hunters hate when poachers are called hunters so why is it ok to stereotype one group of people but not another? How about the way Eastern Canada thinks that Alberta is full of dumb rednecks, like the stereotype?

Facts are, not many in Canada are even informed as to what the treaties really are and that is evident by all the untrue comments about all the free hand outs, free trucks, not paying taxes etc etc. If they take away the treaties they also better do away with the racist Indian Act.

Oh and Gord, it isn't just the FN's that are opposing the pipeline, many Canadians are opposing it and the oil and gas industry will be just fine if it doesn't go through. Are you going to rampage against all the Canadians, white or native if it doesn't go through or you'll simply blame the natives?

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

So then why the hell don't they do something about it instead if bitching to the government that they aren't giving them enough?

Matt, when you make a people "wards of the state" and control their every existence for 7 generations you have an unimaginable impact that very few canadians want to see. What you see in the news and in media is not from an overnight influence.

Its like asking a drug addict to "straighten out" without a major intervention. I encourage you to study the history of this country when it comes to Aboriginal people.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

And the ones holding the ultimate responsibility for what is going on are in Ottawa and our provincial legislatures....they are who I hold responsible for ensuring public monies are spent properly and not consumed in a corruption riddled entity of their creation...whether that be a band office or a ministry.

Tell me there is no corruption in our governments... LOL. ;-)

I do not claim to say there is not some serious issues with our government. However I do see that our government has a right to proper fiscal oversight to ensure that money is not squandered. Currently they can't because the native bands refuse to let them have this oversight.

But bottom line for me and I am sure there are many other non native Canadians (we all are Canadians) is that we feel the natives do not do anything to stand up on their own. They do not seem to take much responsibility for their own actions. Why do they not take care of their own homes on the reserve? Why is it the government's fault that the window fell out, or the paint is peeling on the homes they live in? Why can't they take responsibility for repairing these items themselves?

Many years ago I worked up in Ft. Rae. I worked as a laborer building houses. There were many houses that had been destroyed that were only a few years old. The natives there would pull off all the doors of the cupboards and burn them for a pow-wow, or just because they wanted a fire. They would drive the skidoo into their living room instead of putting it in a shed. They partied all day long for days on end, despite this being a dry town. Everyone drove a newer ford truck and had newer skidoos they drove in the middle of the summer, because they knew they would get another in the fall. The town hated us white guys building them their houses, but the few houses that they were given the materials to build them with they sold or burned, and these houses never got built.

I had a friend who made lots of money recovering skidoos and quads from the lakes around some of the northern reserves, because he claimed the natives would leave them out on the ice in the spring to fall through the lake when it thawed, and this way they would get a new one.

My father worked in John d'or Prairie for a couple years. He was their plumber, despite them having a fully certified native plumber. The native was rarely at work, and was drunk most of the days. My dad had many stories of having to unclog toilets because the natives would flush diapers down the toilet, or garbage. The washing machines were always in need of repair because of abuse, and it was hard for my dad to get to the washing machine because of the pile of new clothes filled in the hallway. The natives would regularly siphon his gas from his vehicle that he had to pay out of his own pocket for, and when he locked the cap and took the jerry cans into the house, they would cut the fuel line to the gas tank. The town of High Level built a nice park at the end of the road to John d'or Prairie, but the natives had a pow-wow and burned all the picnic tables instead of going across the highway and pulling in the deadfall from the forest fire the year previous.

One summer I drove up there, and it was very late when I got into town. I was following a truck and then I saw it's brake lights go on, and then there was a gun flash from the window. They guy shot a deer from his window at nearly 11pm a mere 50m from my dads place. We watched from the house to see if the guy went after to get the animal, but didn't see him get out. In the morning I went for a walk, and not too far from where he shot it, it was lying dead in the trees. This is not my idea of traditional hunting and fishing.

It is things like this that everyone has heard stories about that make us sick and tired of the natives we see as leaches to our tax dollars.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Matt, when you make a people "wards of the state" and control their every existence for 7 generations you have an unimaginable impact that very few canadians want to see. What you see in the news and in media is not from an overnight influence.

Its like asking a drug addict to "straighten out" without a major intervention. I encourage you to study the history of this country when it comes to Aboriginal people.

Yet every time when the government has tried to do something about this, they get too much belly aching from the natives who complain about the action the government wants to take. Enough is enough.

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

They kicked those hard hats out many moons ago!! :-).

Why do you think your living in a substandard unequal Canada? That is what really amazes me, this woe to me attitude. It almost sounds like you would like to trade places in life with a native? They have it pretty good, you can tell so many are in jail, so many are in foster care, so many are hopelessly unemployed and undereducated.....one heck of a thing to be jealous of. IMHO :-)

Nope, it is not me that has the "woe to me attitude." I am not the one blockading roads and going on hunger strikes for an "idle no more" campaign. I am too busy supporting myself and family to have time for bs like that.

That is quite the 180 degree arse backwards accusation based on the topic of this thread. Tell me one single right or opportunity that I have and a native does not. Remember that my grandpa started out in a homesteader's cabin with nothing at all but a hard work ethic. I can list several rights that they have over me though. Leave out all the implied racism, jail, foster care, unemployed, and undereducated stuff though. Those are choices, not rights.

"They kicked those hard hats out many moons ago!!" lol. Then why am I still here.

[Fisherpeak]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

So then why the hell don't they do something about it instead if bitching to the government that they aren't giving them enough?

They are getting a huge amount of money,unfortunately the Chiefs and Band Council are stealing 95% of it.Attawapiskat is a perfect example.Why they are not in jail is a mystery.That woman chief now isn`t on a hunger strike,she`s figured out a way to go on a diet and get on the news at the same time.
Trust me,she will fatten right up after a couple weeks at an all inclusive resort in Belize,paid for with money slated to buy insulation and food for her people.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

I would like to hear an explanation as to how this can be. Sure lots of lawyers make money from constantly arguing and interpreting the many treaties that exist...... and of course politicians make huge buck arguing and posturing in regard to native issue's, but I really don't see where "Native misery " is an industry....... so perhaps you can clarify justify this statement......

Thanks

Well its not just lawyers interpreteing Treaties. The judicial system for example, in Manitoba if you took the Aboriginal population out of the jails we would only need one jail instead of the 14 or so that we have, the number of parole officers, probations officers, police officers associated with this misery is in the billions.

The burden on the health care system across Canada from the misery of Aboriginal people can also be viewed in the millions if not billions of dollars. Nurses, nurses aids, doctors, medication, medical equipment not to mention the remote fly in communities and their needs, airplanes, airfares, pilots ect required.

Education is another cost that has to be measured. The transfer payments to municipalities which includes urban centres, teachers, school counselors.

The beauracracy at AANDC formerly INAC is in the billions across this country

Last but not least, consultants and their costs who are suppose to be looking after the best intersts of their clients.

This what I mean when I say the misery of Indians is an Industry........I`m sure there are more making monies off this.