Logging and traplines

[nube]

How many of you guys have your lines wrecked by logging? I am in total awe of what is going on in this province in the logging in some areas. What a disaster. How do you fight this or at least get compensation for it on your lines if it affects your line. Some areas I have seen around Hinton are wiped out and it will take 40+ years to get a forest back where it is trappable again. Has anyone fought with them at all or been compensated for their trapline losses?

[calgarychef]

Sadly you'll never see trap able forest again in those areas. They spray the new growth to kill it and replant only the lumber species they want. The forest is now a plantation, no more aspen, willow etc.

[bullgetter]

This is Alberta if you can dig it up or cut it down go ahead, environment be damned. When it comes to logging impacting your line there is no compensation. You will be told what the company plans to do but there will be little opportunity for your input. In this regard the oilfield companies seem to be a lot easier to work with and they will compensate you.
This is the way I have experienced things. Millar Western harvests my line and I don't waste my time talking to them anymore. I try to talk with SRD but they are told to push everything through even against there own employyees recommendations.
My most recent issues is the 20 some aggregate companies staking claim to rip up the river valley for gravel. It never seems to end.

[nube]

Is this not why we pay our trapping fees to our associations? What is our trapping associations doing on this?
So far as i understand it my fee goes towards producing a magazine that has a few nice stories in it.
here is a quote from their webpage
"The Alberta Trappers’ Association publishes this magazine on a quarterly basis. The magazine is mailed to members informing them of current issues and concerns trappers face. "

Sounds like all we have is a magazine that informs us of issues like logging but nothing is being done?

I would like to send a few letter out but I am sure they will get ignored unless we get some power behind it. Sounds like any trapping associations around in Canada don't really have much power.
What can we do to fight this? I can't imagine how a guy would feel that only had one or 2 townships and a logging company moves in and knocks it all over. You think the Gov't should at least compensate the people it displaces like this.

[South west trappin RG]

Very true Nube I had a line that produced decent Martin numbers and after the year and haulf of logging I was lucky to catch a haulf dozen. Why did they leave

[tonnage]

The ATA has little power over the big timber companies. You can apply to the Alberta Trapper's Compensation Program but that won't get you much, if anything. ESRD doesn't take the environment seriously, just look at our caribou herds and the plight they're in. In Alberta, it's all about taking it all now!

Here's an interesting tidbit: “It is recognized that on the same area of land over a 100-year time period, the value of fur production is higher than forestry value.” - Fur Institute of Canada.

All you can do is try to negotiate with the companies. You're new at this Nube, in no time your mailbox will be over-flowing with mail from both forestry and oil and gas companies letting you know what's taking place on your line. You're the little guy, nobody, especially ESRD, cares much about the little guy.

[nube]

I don't expect them to quit and I am not a so called environmentalist freak. I get it. But I also am a guy who will be spending a good chunk of money on a trapline. If that is wrecked by the logging in an area I think the least the Gov't or the logging companies can do is to put some money in your pocket to make it fair for wrecking what you bought. From what I hear logging companies give no compensation at all for anything they do. I wish we had an organization with a little more power to push a little harder to help us in this battle. It ain't right

[357xp]

I don't know if I would call it "wrecking", There's a lot of old cut locks up here and some of the old cutblocks u can hardly find. Basically a new forest. Different habitat, yes, but wrecked, no.
Marten and fisher defiantly get hit the most, but rabbits and lynx will increase. ( if they don't spray the poplars that is)
Weasels love the grass as well.

Logging is definitely hard on a line, but iam just tryin to say it's not all bad. My house is built out of lumber......

[bullgetter]

Oh ya after 2-3 years of regrowth they come in and spray it killing everything but the pine. No undergrowth creates no food and cover ending with no animals.

[357xp]

Maybe it's time to revisit the "selective logging" idea? They did that up here as a trial about 20 years ago along the Peace river banks. Trees were hand felled selectively, maybe around 30%ish or so. Then they used line skidders to pull them to a marked clearing. With the line skidder u can pull the cable in between the standing trees and pull out the felled ones with minimal damage. When done u still have a lot of old growth forest with some new growth on the skid trails that didn't get sprayed a few years later.

Of course that would cut into there production to much and wouldn't be "safe" nowadays but the trappers would be happy iam sure.

[nube]

Beats having it look like a nuke bomb went off and it takes 50 years till a marten feels like living there and they do it all over again

[bonedogg]

trappers compensation fund maybe?

[calgarychef]

Well this will turn into a bar room brawl soon so I might as well take the first swing. Compensation for what? When you're paying for the line you're basically paying for the improvements the actual trapping privileges are the cheap part. I suppose they could pay you back your trappers licence, how much is that worth?

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Well this will turn into a bar room brawl soon so I might as well take the first swing.

No brawl. Trappers put a lot of time, effort and money into running their traplines only to have a lot of that work thrown out when timber companies come in and destroy that work. Trappers have as much of a right to their resource as the timber companies do to theirs, it's pretty simple. If I cut down a few hectares of their trees, they'd be hollering for compensation too... no?

[Typical]

Timber companies has paid compensation to trappers in the past and i beleive it is still going on today.

I though that before they actualy take the timber out of one area they are suppose to notify the trapper that hold the trapline in the area.
I might be wrong on this one but i heard that from trappers.

Nube, the south end of your trapline has already been hit about 20 to 25 years ago, i am pretty sure that the south end is a pretty good area for marten.

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by Typical

I though that before they actualy take the timber out of one area they are suppose to notify the trapper that hold the trapline in the area.

That is correct, part of the mailbox full of stuff I was referring to in a previous post.

[nube]

How awesome! They notify you that they will be taking out every tree and bush in a certain area and that there won't be any marten moving into the area for another 40 years. How kind of them.

[bonedogg]

FMA holders are at the top of the pile for many reasons

[waterninja]

have you researched which logging co. is logging on your trapline? you never know, but if you contact them they might be willing to provide some compensation. good luck, and let us know there responce.
also interesting about how they spray to kill underbrush. is this spray toxic to humans and animals, and wouldn't it leach into any water systems?

[bullgetter]

One type is a concentrated Roundup. I can not remember the name of the other stuff but its not good for you. It gets into the water bodies as there is nothing to stop it. A good rain and its in the nearest creek.

[nube]

Originally Posted by waterninja

have you researched which logging co. is logging on your trapline? you never know, but if you contact them they might be willing to provide some compensation. good luck, and let us know there responce.
also interesting about how they spray to kill underbrush. is this spray toxic to humans and animals, and wouldn't it leach into any water systems?

I am not particularily worried about mine right now although some a lot of it looks horrid. I am thinking more so of the guy that only has 1 or 2 townships and it has been logged to death. Even for a guy with more land to trap on still should be compensated somewhat for the loss of habitat to trap on.

[bonedogg]

nothing a $1,000 bucks couldn't cover

[sjd]

Lobby to have your line designated as a Wildland Park. At least that still allows trapping and its the only way to prevent your line being logged.

If its not a park, the government of Alberta has already granted every single one of those trees thats loggable and not in a tiny beauty strip along creeks to a forestry company and its going to be cut - its the law.

[Dark Wing]

I know it sucks having your line logged but it is a sad reallity. I'd get to know the logging company and the guy that does block layout on your line. You might be able to talk him into leaving a little wider buffer zones around your cabins and maybe some of your better areas. As a big game hunter I found that logging really improved the game numbers, and wasn't near as messy as the natural burns.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Nube, your trapline timber belongs to ANC in Whitecourt, their FMA. They are after the pine, leaving spruce for later and only log some of the aspen. The guy in charge is Ian Daisley. He is quite good to work with if such a thing exists in a pulp mill, sawmill or OSB company. We managed to move the company away from one of our line cabins but takes alot of work.

[Red Bullets]

One avenue a trapper can have is to become educated.
I beleive..When a forestry company applies to log an area, there has to be an environmental assessment of the area done. If a person is educated enough, that person, who has a active interest, may submit valid concerns of which may effect any approvals for logging. Or mining. Or oil and gas. You have to become your own advocate.

If you are in an area where you are concerned that you will be logged...
go find a few rare orchids and transplant them into a few select areas of your forest. Or put a few dinoaur bones around. Discover a new species in your area. No logging will happen then.

[albertadeer]

Check out the species at risk and of special concern. You might be able to get some big buffers by locating certain species. Or any unique geological formations "mineral licks" or any aboriginal site.


I have done a fair bit of cutblock layout and pre harvest assessments.... There's some mighty fine elk hunting areas not logged cause of me...

[Red Bullets]

Originally Posted by albertadeer

check out the species at risk and of special concern. You might be able to get some big buffers by locating certain species. Or any unique geological formations "mineral licks" or any aboriginal site.


I have done a fair bit of cutblock layout and pre harvest assessments.... there's some mighty fine elk hunting areas not logged cause of me...

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[nube]

Great idea guys. I think for my area if things get outa hand I think it will end up being a full scale war. There are asome great ideas here.
If anyone has any ideas of how they went about things that succeded please PM me. Thanks

Big Grey Wolf, do you have a contact number close by if it is not to omuch to bother you with?

[woods_walker]

Best thing you can do is reply when the company sends out an opportunity for you to provide input. I've worked for a couple different companies (a couple of the larger forestry companies in the province) and if the trapper doesn't reply, you don't know about his 'special spots' or what trails he wants left open, and there is no set provincial standard on buffering cabins/ improvements either. The area I am working right now, neither trapper has responded over the past 3 months and I am almost done field layout, so they will end up getting a mailed out map of the final harvest plan and take it as it is because once a harvest block is planned up, the government expects it to be logged as planned.
I too have left some extra bush around mineral licks, creeks/springs, trappers cabins, adjusted boundaries to avoid a prime trapping spot and during reforestation have left trails/seismics open so the trapper can maintain his access or have better access to areas. If the timber company doesn't know, it is hard to do that stuff though. Tough thing for the trappers is almost all the forest in the province is allocated to harvest and at some point could be harvested based on legislation. A lot of the guys doing the work are pretty reasonable and it comes down to if you don't know about something, you don't know.

Also, there is not an environmental assessment done on the area planned for logging (earlier posted comment), at least in the same context as an environmental assessment for a mine or major development. The assessments are small on the ground block assessments done on a block by block basis that follow the provincially negotiated operating ground rules, and the larger scale plans of the DFMP (every 10 years) and the FMA agreement (20 year plan).

Another note slightly off but on topic is that right now the province wants a significant reduction in continuous areas of old and even age of pine stands as part of the provincial mountain pine beetle strategy. To follow that some areas are being logged with some pretty large cutblocks and a lot of area logged in some regions. Hopefully your trapline isn't in an area being affected by current infestations.