My (nearly) annual Classified waters rant. :)

[smitty9]

Brought to you by the thread on the Wigwam. And Kellogs
**********************************************
I enjoy doing this rant every year or couple of years or so. It’s like re-visiting an old scar.

Just because BC does their classified waters "their" way doesn't mean we couldn't adapt it for here.

Personally, I think it is well past time for Classified waters in Alberta. Been sounding this trumpet for years.

Look at it from a fisheries management point of view. East Kootenays adopted this system, what, 10 years on.

Largest city in the area is Cranbrook: ~30,000 people. Yet the bios deemed it necessary to manage anglers, limit rod days, hammer the non-residents, etc etc, whatever your take is on this. Part of this too, is those dastardly AB "Calgary oil" anglers spending their hard earned cash in SE BC. How dare they!

Closest major metro area to E.Kootenays is Calgary of course.
Calgary = 3 hours away
Vancouver = 11 hours
Seattle = 9 hours (did you know? I didn't)
Edmonton = 6 hours

My point...if the E.Kootenays is heavily regulated, over-regulated, guides are in bed with bios, whatever, you still have to circle back to fisheries management 101.

I digress.


Just to include AB's population: 3 million people live within 6 hours of the Crowsnest Pass and it's glorified, world class water.

AB population 1M in the 1970's --> 4M in 2020

And we don't think our fishing needs maybe a bit more pro-active management?

Not about guides “getting rich or hogging the resource.” At least...it doesn’t have to be.

You can choose to do this differently. Don't do a pure 100% copycat. Adapt for Alberta's circumstances.

It's becoming more than a little disheartening to see 35 vehicles in the Oldman gap.

Something ought to be done, yes? Or does that same cutthroat need its face ripped 60 times in a summer versus 30? (making up numbers here). Torn mandibles, treble hook scars, people with their hero instagram shots. Not saying I am not guilty here. How much can these fish take?

Proposed Alberta approach, mostly copied from BC, but with some major tweaks:

1) Entire Oldman watershed is classified.
2) AB residents get a chance at annual classified fee. Not much, say $25 bucks for the whole year.
3) Guiding prohibited on smaller waters; Livingstone, Oldman above the gap, certainly tribs like Racehorse or Dutch creek.
4) Other waters get guiding rod allocations. Bow can handle the most pressure, give the guides their due on that river.
5) Make some waters off limits to non-Albertans. I’m talking 3rd to 5th (and up) stage tributaries. Tiny creeks.
6) Double to triple non-resident Canadian fees, double or triple non-resident alien fishing fees. I honestly don't care about "fishing" tourism.
7) And then the daily fee to fish classified waters in ALberta is $30 per day for non-residents. AB citizens still get a break with an annual fee.
8) Double enforcement. Double fines. 2 year minimum bans from fishing for infractions committed in Classified waters.
9) Eastern Slopes FIsh ID stamp through a passed exam mandatory to keep any fish from flowing waters. Yes, including Rocky Mountain Whitefish.

Of course, none of the above will amount to much if our current government:


(1) rolls back protections and returns SW Alberta to the wild west free for all with 10x the amount of linear disturbances, such as quads running rampant (yes, I went there).
(2) allows squatters to park RV’s starting in March and staying there the whole summer until October.
(3) allows forestry companies like Spray Lake Sawmill to obliterate habitat like Hidden and Dutch Creek,
(4) allows Australian coal mining companies proposing mining in precious headwaters.
(5) allows Teck to poison waters with selenium.
(6) continues to allow the relative free for all Montana and BC anglers and guides get on our waters.
(6A) Oh, that reminds me, absolutely no BC or Montana guides on our waters. Ridiculous.

Yet, regardless, we have to do a much better job of managing anglers.

By the way, between the revival of the fishing education course, a digital Fish ID exam (that currently is NOT mandatory), and licenses now allowed to be carried on your phone through the app, we are getting very close to implementing the basic infrastructure of doing a better job of managing anglers.


All done. Just some not so random thoughts. Just spit-ballin’.
This is where BessieDog rips my head off.

[1/2 oz Bucktail]

I was I Montana last summer in the Bitterroot area south of Missoula. There were some interesting regulations for the area (Bitterroot River)
- There was a day of the week that no floating was allowed
- There was a day of the week that no guided floats were allowed.

It would be interesting to see similar regs on rivers such as the Elk in B.C. and the Bow, Waterton, etc. Decrease some of the fishing pressure during high use time periods.

I would also be willing to pay significantly higher licensing fees to fish any western Alberta waters that contain Bulls, Cutts, Grayling, Athabows; as long as it could be guaranteed that those additional dollars go towards enforcement and habitat protection/enhancement.

[ÜberFly]

Mike,

I agree with 99.9% of what you are saying... But there are guides (myself included, and I presume a few in the CNP area) that do not guide on the Bow, but do guide on those small streams... I realize a small percentage, but still worth considering.

P

[flyrodfisher]

@smitty9
I agree with everything you said...your points are, for the most part, things that I have been saying for years.
One BIG problem though....there isn't a soul in AEP that has the balls to even suggest implementing any of this.

I will add one more point to your list...and this one should get the blood pressure going;

NO GUIDES allowed on ANY classified waters

A "business" should NOT push out ( or limit, in any way) the publics ability to access such "special" water.

If these waters are so special that they need to be classified, why would you allow it to become commercialized?...which is what has happened in BC to some extent

[bessiedog]

Rrrrrriiiiiippppp!!!!

You guys have that big a problem with guides?

Really? Go to nother stream.... there’s lots. Big hint.... the Gap is mostly eye candy. There’s a Schwack of better water all around you there. Explore a bit honestly.


Hard no on more regs.

Fishing the area for over 20 years. Fishing has only gotten better.

If you crave less rods n solitude.... drive another 1/2 hour. Hell, if yer nice I’ll take you there.

I put in about 50 rod days during peak season...... I just don’t see the problems your seein.

State clearly what you are trying to save.

Cept the coal mine thing and Hidden creek..... Hidden Creek was a F!?$ up big time.. Dutch ain’t so bad. Gold creek sure got a dose of negligent stuff there a couple years ago.
But I’m thinkin that’s just a lack of o er site of existing regs. Fly creek is prolly gonna be a good elk patch in 5 years.

Dutch and some of the high intensity party wagon areas actually fish pretty good which surprised me last year...(but ya gotta like loud music and quad bunnies).


Serious..... is the crowding that bad? I don’t see it.

[scel]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Hard no on more regs.

Fishing the area for over 20 years. Fishing has only gotten better.

The reason why the fishing has become better is because of the increase in regulations and management.

Furthermore, everything smitty is suggesting would have almost no impact on your life, except a small almost nominal fee.

I get it; you are one of those 'i dun't like roolz' kind of people. It feels like you are already one of those people who actually take care of the fish and the environment. Unfortunately, you are a small minority.

[Jayhad]

I'm fully against a classified system.

If giving the government money to solve a problem works we should be rounding the bend on this climate change thing, thank God for the carbon tax.

If you think for a second the guides won't benefit from an Alberta Classification system you are naïve at best, most likely just stupid.
Alberta's governing class responds to business cases and dollars not platitudes.

I am for guide licensing (kind of, once there is value in the license, there's value in the license) and eliminating out of province guiding, both of which can be achieved with out a classified system.

If you think there are too many users at an access point..... don't fish there, I know, I know that impacts you.
The OP says it's disheartening to see 35 cars at the Gap, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, why can't you self-regulate? Those fish suck anyways and should be left to children and tourists.

[bessiedog]

Jayhad is smart smart smart.....


and yes scel.... I know the regs made it better (I wish they'd reintroduce the qualified cuttbow harvesting thing again)

More regs are NOT gonna help.

You think the fees will go to improve the fishery...? It goes to gen revenue. So NO!!.... I don wanna pay more general taxes.

Drive to nother spot...... there's sooooooo many good spots that have ne'er see a fisherdude much.

Explore..... trust me you will be incredibly rewarded with fishies, solitude and incredible scenery.


99% os the fishy people I see on the waters are pretty serious flyfishy-neoprene-got 5 boxes of bugs kind of guys..... very rarely do I see poor handling techniques..... guys r really respectful of who's got access to what and give space. People r friendly... chatty.

So... serious..... what problems do you seriously want addressed with increased regulation?


I'm curious.

[smitty9]

Originally Posted by Jayhad

I'm fully against a classified system.

If giving the government money to solve a problem works we should be rounding the bend on this climate change thing, thank God for the carbon tax.

If you think for a second the guides won't benefit from an Alberta Classification system you are naïve at best, most likely just stupid.
Alberta's governing class responds to business cases and dollars not platitudes.
.

No need to be an insulting jacka%% about it either Jayhad.

One, I never said guides wouldn't benefit.

Two, perhaps the corollary statement is maybe if you don't think that the government couldn't design a system to curtail, limit, or restrict guiding that would be equally stupid.

Yes, I am part of the problem. So is everyone else. Your argument does zero to address the underlying issue.

Moving on...

[smitty9]

You think the fees will go to improve the fishery...? It goes to gen revenue. So NO!!.... I don wanna pay more general taxes.

But that doesn't have to be the case does it? Before,..in the olden days... streams of revenue of the GoA could be and were targeted and directed. So....

Drive to nother spot...... there's sooooooo many good spots that have ne'er see a fisherdude much.

A very common rebuttal. It's a non-sequitur. I could and have driven to many different spots over 35 years. I have found solitude indeed in SW Ab, CNP area. So what? Doesn't change the fact there are stretches of water getting hammered.

Explore..... trust me you will be incredibly rewarded with fishies, solitude and incredible scenery.

No argument here.

So... serious..... what problems do you seriously want addressed with increased regulation?


I'm curious.

My point is that every waterway has a natural carrying capacity for fish, and that capacity can be impacted by angling effort. And in my humble opinion, its time to address angling effort.

Frankly, overall, I think its kind of superficial to just say go somewhere else and don't fish there. Extend that thinking to its logical end. Are all of us saying, then, that if you, me, whomever lives another 40 years upon this earth we shouldn't fish a given spot? Nonsense, in my opinion. Just have a licensing lottery, at least give me and you and others a chance to fish at 9am in the morning without 4 vehicles already at the spot.

Anyways, just opening the pandora's box. Not naive enough to think everyone will be convinced, c'est la vie. In my view, a conversation worth having, be better conversation without the implied insults. But hey, we're in a quarantine pandemic and everyone has got to cope some way I suppose...

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You think the fees will go to improve the fishery...? It goes to gen revenue. So NO!!....

So wrong
Please read to see where your current license fees go;

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=379631

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Jayhad

If you think for a second the guides won't benefit from an Alberta Classification system you are naïve at best, most likely just stupid.

Under my proposal....NO GUIDES allowed on classified waters.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by flyrodfisher

So wrong
Please read to see where your current license fees go;

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=379631

I stand corrected. And informative too........

And the dollars don’t seem to go terribly far ACA wise into helping fisheries (almost $50 to stock one fish...? Hmm)

‘Natural carrying capacity of the water’ isn’t getting achieved.... because there’s too many fishermen...? What does ‘fish are getting hammered?’ mean to you?

Please clarify.....



So.... you wanna big tax that will only deter probably kids and families from fishing there..... and allow richer folks to get ‘undisturbed access’?

Is your solution to reduce rod days? Shorten season?

It’s all catch and release waters.... fish( even cutties) get educated... pickier... this might lead to impressions of reduced populations.

Help me here.... these regulations will allow the rivers to achieve their ‘natural carrying capacity’...... explain to me how.




It feels a bit like..‘I want it to myself and exclude others.’

And I’m not sure my logic is non sequiter as you state.... but I’m a dullard.


Do you have any proof that the fishcarrying capacity is suffering?

All I see is an attempt to restrict the commons.... as was done in England, the Eastern Salmon streams... and elsewhere

Perhaps we are on the way to achieving a fishy stream version of The Tragedy of the Commons.... but even with 4million Albertans here.... is not sure we’re there yet..



And what’s wrong with fishin guides...?

[scel]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Explore..... trust me you will be incredibly rewarded with fishies, solitude and incredible scenery.

So... serious..... what problems do you seriously want addressed with increased regulation?


I'm curious.

I do explore. Every year, my places of solitude become less so.

You know what really sucks about the last 7 weeks---it should be pretty obvious that humans are the biggest causes of environmental degradation. Anything that slows the impact of people would be good for longevity of the fisheries. The people who find the gap full will start looking for other places to fish. It is just time before our places of solitude are overtaken.

Personally, the only things that I would change is to classify the waters and managing guides (because, I agree with you...without exploring and discovering the waters, it is missing the point). All the other regulations are clearly working---no need to screw with it. I would want minimal impact to Albertans.

A small nominal annual surcharge fee to Albertans (like $10-$15) an increased daily fee to non-Albertans (like $25/day, just like the BC). The additional money goes to Fish and Wildlife enforcement. Charging money is an easy way to make people stop and think about the area. It certainly makes me stop to think about fishing Elk River system when I am travelling through BC even though I always buy an annual BC fishing license.

My Alberta fishing license is already super cheap. I feel that it should be $10 more as it is (totally welcome to disagree, but $26 is cheap). Evidence shows BC's system mostly works. At least the system would provide consistency between the two provinces and maybe protect the cutthroat populations.

[Bushrat]

If everyone wants better less crowded fishing the only way it can be done is by restricting numbers of fishermen one way or another. We can call it classified waters or a draw system for access, etc. I don't think that is a rat hole we want to go down.

Once it starts it could end up like NB salmon fishing where you can put your name in and are allowed 3 days fishing on a particular stretch of water, that's if you get drawn. I've known people including myself who have never been drawn in the 4 years I was able to apply when I lived there, some don't get drawn in years, some in a lifetime.. Meanwhile at the same time some stretches of water became re classified, basically privatized, hmmm, luxury Lodges got built by wealthy people, groups and outfitters whereby dignitaries, politicians, movie stars, non residents etc, are allowed upon invitation unrestricted fishing on their basically private stretches of water.

You are allowed to canoe through these millionaire stretches of river to the lesser stretches where your designated dated 3 day resident draws are allowed, you have to fish the designated three days you've drawn or not at all or go to the public open water general season for residents on most rivers, that's if you want to join the hoards on the bone they threw to regular fishermen.

I don't think we want to go down that set of rapids, once that canoe gets set in motion it is hard to stop and tends to accelerate.

[FlyTheory]

The ultimate issue is what 1/2oz said, which is for habitat rehab at tributary streams and higher enforcement. That’s what Trout Unlimited seems to want, and AEP as well. Yes I’m echoing what 1/2oz, but it seems this AO community seems to ignore the intelligent replies and moves onto some His-Royal-Highness’ answer.

[smitty9]

Gentleman:

I am not proposing the "privatization" of waters, fishing, or access. NO one is suggesting that the laws regarding high water marks, streambed legality change. Not even close. That is a red herring, though, yes, I get the angle about slippery slope. But almost every proposed legislation has a "slippery slope" angle / rebuttal to it, can't let that stop us from enacting change where we deem necessary (and I am perfectly fine if you don't think it isn't necessary, I am just saying the slippery slope thing is a very old crutch...). This is not about exclusion, not about eliteness, this is not about preventing folks from fishing. There is no way - no way - you are going to convince me that an additional $25-$35 per year is the make or break, straw breaking the financial camel's back, tipping point preventing people from fishing. Not with all other expenses factored in.

I have no general problems with guiding; I've used several myself in my life, and, in fact, I've thought of opening a part-time guiding business myself. My issue is profiting off a resource, increasing the pressure and traffic without limitations. Without (as alluded to earlier) proper licensing. Without giving back (and yes, several outsatnding guides DO give back to the resource and treat it with proper respect).

But I can't believe in 2020, that Alberta is one of the few places, that, - relatively speaking comparatively - is a free for all when it comes to guide licensing.

I'm saying the fish are beat up and the user experience has markedly declined. Bessiedog, you are one of the few exceptions saying otherwise. Now, being an Edmontonian, I can only make it 1-2 times per year over the course of the last 35 years. And I haven't gone annually either. But those are my anecdotal observations stemming back to the late 80's. But my Calgary friends and the other few that live in the Pass would tend to agree with me. There was a massive thread on this 10 years ago on the flyfishcalgary forum (now fly fusion). Guys b****ing how the pressure has changed since the 70's.

I know that AB's population has quadrupled, and yet fishing licenses have relatively remained flat. And yet, since the "Movie" (ARRTI) in the 90's flyfishing has exploded in popularity. As mentioned lots of nice, good fellows fishing the area.

And you can't tell me - well, you could, if someone has some hard data - that fish aren't dying to the increased pressure. Between the hero instagram shots, cutthroat faces looking like pincushions, multiple handlings per seasons, it stands to reason we lose fish due to pressure. And the natural carrying capacity of the what determines how much fish pounds of biomass are available to grow each year. Will we reach a point - despite 0 limits - that fish populations can be impacted by overuse?

Anyways, I won't ignore my own selfish bias or desires; yes - I'd like to go and fish above highway 22 and have some relative (and I do mean that loosely) space where I am not within 200 yards of another angler. Having been to Montana and Yellowstone, I guess we still have it relatively easy. Or, having grown up and fished ES3 all my life, and needing minimal effort north and south of Hinton to find complete solitude, maybe I am just spoiled.

But I still think classified waters is an approach that needs to be considered. For the fish and the fisherman.

[bessiedog]

dude.... your pretty hung up on the argument falacy calls...... so

Call yourself out on the anecdotal fallacy use.

Show me some serious peer reviewed research please.

And I seriously doubt that people are saying it was better in the gap in the '70s and '80....

wayyy more people did the CCC back then ( camp catch cook)

The Crow is a prime example of this..... 80's and '90s ..... way more jumpy dinks around..... now adays.... bigger fishies all over.

If you want to have a serious supportable stance that advocates regulation..... get peer review study done by the ACA (hey there's a good use of our fishing dollars)

Otherwise..... you are simply saying "I know alot of friends that agree with me"

Alot of people agree that drinking MMC cures Covid.... that dont necessarily make it true now does it?

And No..... stream restrictions due to increased regulations IS NOT a red Herring....

The England, France, Germany, and Atlantic Salmon stream experience all show pretty much the exact same trend that your advocating for.

It gets exclusionary.

My opinion and you and your acquaintances' opinions are both equally invalid metinks

find-get research.. n show me/us the scientific justification for for regulations. Then I might agree.



ps.... I respect your concern.... but I think your groupthinking here big time

[scel]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

dude.... your pretty hung up on the argument falacy calls...... so

Call yourself out on the anecdotal fallacy use.

Show me some serious peer reviewed research please.

And I seriously doubt that people are saying it was better in the gap in the '70s and '80....

wayyy more people did the CCC back then ( camp catch cook)

The Crow is a prime example of this..... 80's and '90s ..... way more jumpy dinks around..... now adays.... bigger fishies all over.

If you want to have a serious supportable stance that advocates regulation..... get peer review study done by the ACA (hey there's a good use of our fishing dollars)

Otherwise..... you are simply saying "I know alot of friends that agree with me"

Alot of people agree that drinking MMC cures Covid.... that dont necessarily make it true now does it?

And No..... stream restrictions due to increased regulations IS NOT a red Herring....

The England, France, Germany, and Atlantic Salmon stream experience all show pretty much the exact same trend that your advocating for.

It gets exclusionary.

OK. Lets think of it differently without needing to dive through academic journals. Designating parks/green spaces saves environmental spaces, designating the space for all residents. This is environmental conservation 101.

A couple years, I took a friend fishing. He was an Albertan; recently moved to Ontario where his wife found employment. In his 45 years, he had never been to the Oldman area. He was blown away that something so beautiful and pristine was found in Alberta. And he was lucky to have the experience of the picky (I know...not a frequent issue) cutthroat, sip the small dry fly, then get chased around the pool by a bull trout. He will talk about that day for the rest of his life.

I feel the Oldman watershed needs to be protected against exploitation. Designate the area as park space. i.e. an area for the people, not unlike Kananaskis. Park fees depend on usage.

An annual park pass is a nominal fee, and it includes access to all day resources, including fishing to provincial residents. Residents from outside the province pay a different set of fees.

Multi-day use has a fee. Fee depends on activity. A single vehicle access for tenting, maybe something like $20/week. If an individual wants to haul their fifth-wheel trailer, there is a bigger fee to commensurate the environmental damage. If the individual can afford the trailer and truck, they can afford the fee.

I do not know what to do about guides. It is an honest business helping people learn about the areas. Sometimes, when I am feeling selfish, I feel like people have paid good money to get the inside scoop on something that took me years to figure out. Still, guiding is an unpredictable gig, but the people who do it are hard-working and have an invested purpose to sustain the environment in which they guide. They are in a catch-22 situation.

Bottom line though, I am interested in protecting the area, not exploiting or regulating it.

[WhitefishLady]

Agree Smitty!

This is long past due. If anything, help raise funds.

especially this one:

9) Eastern Slopes Fish ID stamp through a passed exam mandatory to keep any fish from flowing waters. Yes, including Rocky Mountain Whitefish.

The complete disregard for proper fish identification (even for keeping fish) is disturbing.

[bessiedog]

so..... for ES1

other than whitefish.....

where can a guy keep trout....? hwy 22 to 520 of omr

and brooks from gold.....


what do we need to identify my catch and released fish for?

how the heck is this a major problem....? that needs regulation....?


and yea scel..... I can get behind park designation for controlling ATV and land yacht parking-use-occupancy.


cept last time they went and designated a park to the south..... they unjustly restricted camping spots and snuck in a firearms discharge permit..... which is highly vexxing

and they shut down ALL quad trails..... theres room for maintained trails for quads.

Getting sick of seeing globe bbq guy yaking up that camp spot on the omr northfork

dude pretty much squats there all summer all the time

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

dude.... your pretty hung up on the argument falacy calls...... so

Call yourself out on the anecdotal fallacy use.

Show me some serious peer reviewed research please.

And I seriously doubt that people are saying it was better in the gap in the '70s and '80....

wayyy more people did the CCC back then ( camp catch cook)

The Crow is a prime example of this..... 80's and '90s ..... way more jumpy dinks around..... now adays.... bigger fishies all over.

If you want to have a serious supportable stance that advocates regulation..... get peer review study done by the ACA (hey there's a good use of our fishing dollars)

Otherwise..... you are simply saying "I know alot of friends that agree with me"

Alot of people agree that drinking MMC cures Covid.... that dont necessarily make it true now does it?

And No..... stream restrictions due to increased regulations IS NOT a red Herring....

The England, France, Germany, and Atlantic Salmon stream experience all show pretty much the exact same trend that your advocating for.

It gets exclusionary.

My opinion and you and your acquaintances' opinions are both equally invalid metinks

find-get research.. n show me/us the scientific justification for for regulations. Then I might agree.



ps.... I respect your concern.... but I think your groupthinking here big time

If I understand your comments correctly;

1) You are happy with the state of things fishery wise in the CNP...and are happy with the status quo.
2) You think that a classified waters approach is ill founded and fraught with abuse...so...BC got it wrong?


If I misunderstood you, could you clarify please?

[Smoky buck]

Classified waters in BC are lobbied for mostly by the guides because there goal is to thin out some traffic for their clients. Most BC residents I know are not big fans of classified waters and many will fight against new waters when possible

Increase rates on non residents licenses yes

Adopt a better system to regulate Alberta guides and numbers a lake or river yes

Trout conservation stamp for Alberta yes

No guiding on sensitive water yes again

Habitat enhancement and rehabilitation definitely support

Classified water nope not interested and would openly oppose it

This my opinion

[bessiedog]

I'm pretty good with status quo...... cept honestly I'd like to maybe see a one fish a day or maybe even a draw tag system for the Crow and OMR systems to keep a fish for dinner..... there's some tasty fish in there.

I'm really not an expert on the classified waters system... other than the 'pay per day' scheme that's on the Elk..... which I see as child and family and 'regular guy' hostile.

It acts as a 'sin tax'......... sin taxes are designed to reduce rods on the water.... restrict access.

there's NO WAY... considering our foreseeable provincial financial situation that ANY $ from such a system will be allocated to the one only thing that would help the fishery there...... that's habitat improvement/restoration (Fix the Hidden Creek mud fest)

That kind of provincial revenue expenditure is now waaayyyyyyy down on the spending priority list.

and I've never looked into how many Elk River rod day dollars ACTUALLY get committed to helping the Elk.... but I'm betting its extremely similar to the ACA efforts to improve fisheries.........


Having fished the Elk, WigWamm , Michelle, and other fisheries there in the '90s and early 2000's. My observation is that the Elk and Michelle don't get visited much by local residents any more. I haven't seen a kid on the river fishing in forever.

I have many Fernie acquaintances that attest that the those regulations were simply put in there to boost the exclusivity of BC guides..... lots of unhappy people by my ear. Prime Tragedy of the Comons right there.

Its for the rich, its for the guides. Its become strictly a tourist resource.


That is not good in my opinion.


I also openly wonder about the 'quality of fishery' claims about the Elk...... but I've never delved into it.

"I'll founded and fraught with abuse" are your words..... not mine.

I do believe that we do not need what looks to be developing in the Fernie area and other 'classified waters'

But I am by no means an expert on this.

I'm fairly confident that our eastern slopes fisheries are not 'getting hammered' as badly as the Elk might be/have been 'getting hammered' when the regulations were introduced.



and I'm ok with what Smokey Buck posted just now...... cept that extra $ is just more sin tax for no fishy purpose.

[Smoky buck]

Controlling where the $ goes is an issue that needs to be addressed or yes it’s just a sin tax

But all this talk on AO will amount to nothing without good representation of Alberta fishermen

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

I have many Fernie acquaintances that attest that the those regulations were simply put in there to boost the exclusivity of BC guides..... lots of unhappy people by my ear. Prime Tragedy of the Comons right there.

Its for the rich, its for the guides. Its become strictly a tourist resource.


That is not good in my opinion.

On that point we agree....and that is why I said NO GUIDES on classified waters.

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

But all this talk on AO will amount to nothing without good representation of Alberta fishermen

And therein lies the problem.....
If I look at some of the posts here, some can't even read the regs….others just can't read.


Also, there is no one in AEP that has the balls to "rock the boat"
Why would they?....AEP is having a field day watching folks scrap over these issues here

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by flyrodfisher

On that point we agree....and that is why I said NO GUIDES on classified waters.

how about give guides rod day allocations......

[Smoky buck]

I realize many residents seem to have an issue with guiding but honestly trying to exclude the industry will achieve little to no changes

What is much wiser is to regulate the industry so it helps finance the fishery, and can be a beneficial partner to lobby for projects to benefit Alberta waters. But right now Alberta is the Wild West for fishing guides

The whole theory of limiting users may sound great but if you can utilize the users of a fishery to bring support for issues regarding Alberta waters, and invest into the resource it’s fare more beneficial

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by flyrodfisher

And therein lies the problem.....
If I look at some of the posts here, some can't even read the regs….others just can't read.


Also, there is no one in AEP that has the balls to "rock the boat"
Why would they?....AEP is having a field day watching folks scrap over these issues here

So clearly there is a major issue that needs to be addressed if things are ever going to go beyond talk