New member and a note on poaching

[BeeGuy]

Howdy folks!

Well, I'm new around here, both this forum and the Calgary area. I just left Toronto where I was in grad school researching native bees. I've spent many years living/working/researching in BC(forestry, biodiversity surveying), and a couple in AB, but never out of Calgary. Anyways, I love fishing.

So far I've been out to Barrier Lake, Ghost Lake, and Lake Minnewanka with varied results, some great, some with only great views. I hit up Goat Pond a couple weeks ago without any success as well as the channel there. Also spent a couple hours at the Gap Lk/Bow Rvr spot north of Exshaw. Nice spot.

So, I've been using the great reference info on this board to figure out what species are where, driving times, etc etc and decided to finally register. Reading the recent posts I immediately noticed all the commentary on poaching. Two things were evident: 1) the get'm boys attitude, and 2) the attempts at tongue in cheek racism.

Now, I think that many would agree that neither of these attitudes are particularly useful, beyond satisfying ones own ego.

I'd like to note that numerous fish species and stocks in Alberta, and across Canada have been seriously threatened or depleted (read extirpated) without the aid of people of Asian decent, newly immigrated eastern European decent, or any other. This is the proud legacy of the whiteman. Don't forget what we are doing to the Athabasca system right now. Taking a couple hammerheads home for ma a thousand times pales in comparison.

It is inappropriate to yell at any fisherman. Authority is reserved for bonded Peace Officers. Confronting people is a mistake. It can escalate and lead to....many things including legal problems. Note that what you see from afar is not always the case, and status cards aren't always worn on foreheads.

Always be nice. If you think someone is breaking the regulations, approach them in a non-confrontational manner. Ask them how there day has gone. Ask them if they know the regulations. If they are unsure, and probably the majority are unsure (the reg's are 100pages), tell them what the regulations are. Species, slot limits, retention and gear/bait. If you feel they are still breaking the rules call RAP or the cops. Fair enough.

Chances are, if you think someone is poaching, you are already ****ed-off, and will approach them as such. This is true whether you bite your tongue initially or not. Hell, I've caught some steaming stink eye from flyfisherman,....for spin-fishing.


Don't forget the time you accidentally let a fish spoil. Don't forget the time you forgot that trout in the freezer for 18mos and it was inedible.

Don't forget the time you shot a sparrow with a bb gun when you were 13.
Know what I'm sayin?

And for those repeat offenders (beige Toyota minivan), let us hope they face prosecution if the facts support it.

End rant.

Hope to meet y'all on the water. I'll be a bearded white-dude, hucking big spoons from shore with a grin.

Cheers,

LB

[deanmc]

Hello BeeGuy. Sounds like great advice.





Best set shields at full power.

[jts1]

Originally Posted by deanmc

Hello BeeGuy. Sounds like great advice.





Best set shields at full power.

x2

[NSRfishing]

so you are saying because whiteman is possibly polluting athabasca river it is ok for asian to keep hammerhandle pike?

[BeeGuy]

Haha, no, I don't think anyone should be fishing outside the reg's. The example you mentioned was intended to give perspective. Proximate and ultimate.

Proximate: 2 guys killin hammerhandles.

Ultimate: Industry destroying an entire watershed.

Neither situation is good or ethical, but it is good to keep things in perspective. No single individual is reducing the quality of sport fisheries. It is our impact as a group that has the greatest impact and we all contribute to that.

Deanmc: Shields at full!

Cheers

[splake0]

Welcome to the forum.

Bee guy, I agree with your comments
Very well said.

[Kokanee9]

Welcome.

This is a fishing forum that has a high percentage of people who are passionate about fishing. I understand that you may be trying to prevent possible confrontation between poachers and passionate fisherman. The right to buy a fishing license also carries the responsibility to read the regulations. A duty to read the regulations. Mistakes and misunderstandings will happen, which are probably best handled by polite education at the scene as you described. Total disregard for the regulations will not be changed by polite conversation. Sometimes the difference cannot be determined without conversation.

Ontario where you studied has more lakes and rivers than here in AB. So does B.C. Fishing pressure is more concentrated on the few lakes we have than those provinces. People from there may think that we are crazy for driving sometimes over 2 hrs to go for a regular day of fishing. When people from here come across total disregard for fishing regulations, its not hard to imagine the results if allowed to continue.

Attitudes of catch as many as you can have taken years to change to catch and release.

The regulations are to help protect, preserve and improve the fishing here. Regulations alone will not accomplish that. I don't think anybody on here goes out at the start of the day with a John Wayne attitude of "lets catch poachers", they go to get fish on the end of their line.

Helping to prevent poaching is just as important as the regulations themselves.

[boot]

BeeGuy, thanks for your input. I agree 100%.

[Photoplex]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Howdy folks!
<snip>

Outstanding post, and welcome.

[BeeGuy]

Hey Folks,

Thanks for all the replies. Hopefully I didn't stir things up too much. Thanks for all the positive feedback. I haven't had the opportunity to read all the responses yet but I'm working on it.

I should make it clear that I wasn't specifically trying to criticize any particular poster. I was commenting on some themes which seemed apparent to me from my browsing. That is all.

For those that think my commentary on the state of environmental transformation in the province would suggest I'm a raging tree-hugger, this is not the case.

Cheers, and I'll get back to reading your responses.

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Hey Folks,
For those that think my commentary on the state of environmental transformation in the province would suggest I'm a raging tree-hugger, this is not the case.

Have you ever been to Fort Mac, are you technically involved in the process up there, or are you just repeating what you heard James Cameron said or what you saw on a biased documentary?

I have plenty of family back there so I get annoyed when people make assumptions.


And Photoplex I like you but we gotta drop all the WASP talk. Yes white man did horrible things, but so has every other colour/culture in the history of man. Lets shake it off and move one, cause I didn't do it and you didn't do it.

[Photoplex]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

Have you ever been to Fort Mac, are you technically involved in the process up there, or are you just repeating what you heard James Cameron said or what you saw on a biased documentary?

I have plenty of family back there so I get annoyed when people make assumptions.


And Photoplex I like you but we gotta drop all the WASP talk. Yes white man did horrible things, but so has every other colour/culture in the history of man. Lets shake it off and move one, cause I didn't do it and you didn't do it.

Hey, brother, I am not racist, or prejudiced against any group - WASPs included (except the yellow and black buzzing stinging type).

I just get annoyed when I read around here "go back where you came from" or "this is our country, like it or lump it". Pointing out to that person, that they are only a few generations away from the exact same thing they're getting their panties in a twist about does not make me some kind of crusader...

[ESOXangler]

Originally Posted by Photoplex

Hey, brother, I am not racist, or prejudiced against any group - WASPs included (except the yellow and black buzzing stinging type).

I just get annoyed when I read around here "go back where you came from" or "this is our country, like it or lump it". Pointing out to that person, that they are only a few generations away from the exact same thing they're getting their panties in a twist about does not make me some kind of crusader...

Agreed, I dig where your coming from!

[BeeGuy]

Hey ESOX,

I have not worked in oil/gas, however I have worked all over the place (BC and AB) in forestry which in AB runs side by side with O&G. My wife is currently an env. consultant in the Big Mac.

So no, your right, I'm not technically washing bitumen out of the sand.

Guys, as I mentioned, I conducted a lot of research on bees, so go easy on my WASPY brethren!!

[boot]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

Have you ever been to Fort Mac, are you technically involved in the process up there, or are you just repeating what you heard James Cameron said or what you saw on a biased documentary?

You don't need to be directly involved in something to form an educated opinion. Part of critical thinking involves applying research and validating/invalidating that research. Also, wouldn't working directly with the oil sands create a bias?

Anyhow, I'm not a dentist, but I'm pretty confident that sugar promotes tooth decay. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty confident that smoking can damage your lungs and cause cancer... and so on.

[TyreeUM]

Originally Posted by boot

You don't need to be directly involved in something to form an educated opinion. Part of critical thinking involves applying research and validating/invalidating that research. Also, wouldn't working directly with the oil sands create a bias?

Anyhow, I'm not a dentist, but I'm pretty confident that sugar promotes tooth decay. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty confident that smoking can damage your lungs and cause cancer... and so on.

Research and environmental impact assessments are not cut and dry like your examples of sugar/tooth decay etc. Fertilizing your lawn may impact fisheries in your local watershed - but to what extent? When working around water, it is tough not to have some sort of impact. Depending on who has conducted the research, it can be incredibly bias, particularly around an industry with so many negative attitudes surrounding it already. That being said, without being directly involved, it IS quite difficult to form an "educated opinion".

[boot]

Originally Posted by TyreeUM

Research and environmental impact assessments are not cut and dry like your examples of sugar/tooth decay etc. Fertilizing your lawn may impact fisheries in your local watershed - but to what extent? When working around water, it is tough not to have some sort of impact. Depending on who has conducted the research, it can be incredibly bias, particularly around an industry with so many negative attitudes surrounding it already. That being said, without being directly involved, it IS quite difficult to form an "educated opinion".

Yes, my intention wasn't to compare the different bodies of knowledge, but instead to point out that a person doesn't have to work directly in the field to have an educated opinion.

[mszomola]

If i look at the spillway on traverse and see the guys throwing 15inch eyes in their bucket while i get confronted at little bow and checked over and then to hear the mnr guy say ("ohhh i missed the tourny ? i was hoping to do a few extra checks" )

this makes me want to freaking explode. pardon me if i don't give 2 s***'s if you are racially offended by the remarks because the people fishing the spillway were asian , sorry if that truth is terribly difficult to swallow for you , maybe you play by the rules and upsets you the same way . Fair enough !


Stereotypes are unfortunate but typically 90% accurate , its the culture thats responsible for the actions and everyone contributes to that big picture.

BTW , seriously ? the mnr was going to check SAWT fellas ? talk about barking up the wrong tree ...

[boot]

Originally Posted by mszomola

Stereotypes are unfortunate but typically 90% accurate , its the culture thats responsible for the actions and everyone contributes to that big picture.

No, they are not 90% accurate. Lol...

[bowness]

I am really impressed with this thread. Great dialoguue lacking the often misleading diatribes that lead us off into other issues. Un "BEE" lievable. (sorry couldent help myself.)

Now for my rant:

I often get frustrated that many Canadian laws do not apply to all inhabitants of Canada. The "first here" philosophy and the extra rights associated seem to be racist in themselves. Using racist laws to make up for the past injustices seems to be counter productive. Atleast it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. From my experience just because you were here first doesnt mean you are closer to nature or have less of a tendancy to exploit resources. The difference is you can exploit them and get Canadian tax dollars to support it. The icing on the cake is Canadians have no legal right to stop it.

[Braun]

Originally Posted by bowness

I am really impressed with this thread. Great dialoguue lacking the often misleading diatribes that lead us off into other issues. Un "BEE" lievable. (sorry couldent help myself.)

Now for my rant:

I often get frustrated that many Canadian laws do not apply to all inhabitants of Canada. The "first here" philosophy and the extra rights associated seem to be racist in themselves. Using racist laws to make up for the past injustices seems to be counter productive. Atleast it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. From my experience just because you were here first doesnt mean you are closer to nature or have less of a tendancy to exploit resources. The difference is you can exploit them and get Canadian tax dollars to support it. The icing on the cake is Canadians have no legal right to stop it.

NICE!!!! this post right here should guarentee us atleast another 100 posts on this thread.


If you are talking about the rights and privileges afforded to the native populous then i agree x100. I am not a racist nor do i have a stigma against any individual race. But this often is a sore spot for me. one common misunderstanding is that if a individual with a status card is fishing with a line and pole, they are considered sport fishing and must abide by sportfishing regulations. If they net, trap, spear, whatever...... they are exempt from all fishing laws including catch limits, seasonal closures, ect.

Im sorry but it is getting to the point where this is ridiculous. I know you can't just run up and strip all there privileges to nothing. but there is alot of government funding going to people of native status. and In my opinion, alot of that funding is abused. I know some Native status individuals who have struck out and have tried to do something with what they are given and become self supporting and successful just as every other individual tries. But for every one that does this there seems to be dozens that adopt the mindset that, if they are offering this to us why wouldnt we take it. I actually know a couple cases of half blood relatives of close friends purposefully had kids so they can get subsidized housing with their status cards and not have to work because of the kids. I also know some native status people who understand and agree with alot of the negative stereotypes of native status people. They don't condone it but understand why people believe certain things..... because more often than not they are proven true. this is a whole other political topic so I will stop it right here and get back to fishing. My point is that no not all native status people abuse the system. but alot do, in my opinion.

in terms of fishing, we have catch limits and seasonal closures in order to Recouperate and help ecosystems survive. This is mostly do to mass fishing pressure. We close waters to protect spawning fish. we have limits to protect population. What good are these actions if it is not close to EVERYONE. Like I said you can't just take rights like these away. they do have to be phased out over time. but a step in the right direction is making them have to obey seasonal closures. and certain limits for certain species / waters. they can still net / trap / spear fish IN SEASON and protect spawners. the next step would be to make them apply for netting / trapping in certain waters.


those would be steps in the right direction. Politically, i do have a belief that things eventually do need to be changed. we cannot uphold the agreement with the "first here" laws that are in place for several reasons.
1. abuse of the system
2. Times have changed and so eventually do our laws in order to look out for the greater good of our resources
3. things just arn`t as cut and dry as they were when I could trade 10 fish for 1 fur pelt.

[Braun]

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

[alodar]

Originally Posted by Braun

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

X2

[chubbdarter]

do they use mini vans too?

[boot]

Originally Posted by Braun

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

The give and take is happening and both parties are trying to find some common ground. Like it or not, natives have special rights according to Canadian law. It's funny how you whine about how I come off sounding as if I'm some sort of expert and then you come up with paragraph after paragraph and finally this... "give and take"? Best interests of people and environment?

Natives in our country are a broken people. There's only 1 reason for their brokenness (please do not tell me it's genetic!!). You talk about natives as if they're priveleged... priveleged?!? WTF?!?

Braun, I've never called you a racist (because I don't think you are one), but you don't have the compassion nor the clarity of thought to truly understand the problems. Then again, maybe we all just need thicker skin... that'll solve everything.

Looks like this thread is never going to die.

[chubbdarter]

I should be made a MODERATOR

[Lefty-Canuck]

.....apparently some people bring napalm to arm wrestling matches.....

Lefty

[Braun]

Originally Posted by boot

The give and take is happening and both parties are trying to find some common ground. Like it or not, natives have special rights according to Canadian law. It's funny how you whine about how I come off sounding as if I'm some sort of expert and then you come up with paragraph after paragraph and finally this... "give and take"? Best interests of people and environment?

Natives in our country are a broken people. There's only 1 reason for their brokenness (please do not tell me it's genetic!!). You talk about natives as if they're priveleged... priveleged?!? WTF?!?

Braun, I've never called you a racist (because I don't think you are one), but you don't have the compassion nor the clarity of thought to truly understand the problems. Then again, maybe we all just need thicker skin... that'll solve everything.

Looks like this thread is never going to die.

I think the give and take statement part went over your head a little. I mean give and take in terms of CHANGING some of the current laws. No I was not coming off as an expert, unlike your posts. Following almost every statement I made in my post I made sure to clearly state that this was in my opinion. which does 2 things. legally This forum, anyone on this forum including myself is protected from misinterpretation and any legal consequences resulting from the misinterpretation of my statement. 2. is to imply that it is not of an expert, scientific, or any other opinion and by no means a statement of fact.... just an individual opinion. Furthermore, the examples I gave are personal accounts with people around me and in no way an accusation, generalization, or a stereotype of the native race.

However, nice try trying to call me out and turn me into a "bad guy". Unfortunately the part of me that loves debating is engaging in this pointless discussion with you although I know you are only going to listen to things that prove you right instead of considering the arguments I present. This is also apparent by you inaccurately throwing comments I made to you back at me (thicker skin, etc.).

You say natives in the country are broken. Yet we provide tax breaks, free education and *post secondary education*. Free counselling services to help them find the right track. Free lawyer services to help them when they so need it. Subsidized housing. Land to build houses. The list can go on.

For decades we as tax payers have been providing the means for native peoples to help themselves (can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink). As previously stated, some actually use these means to do well for themselves. however some attempt to abuse the system. you can find individuals in every race where this can be explained. However, in my experience in talking to some first nations people, this is quite often abused. In no way do I believe it is genetic. However, I believe there is a major cultural distortion in play. In conversation with the mentioned first nations people, He himself says that the reservations, quite often, are the world place for a native individual to be because of the cultural attitude is easy to be sucked in. He went on to provide me vivid example of some of the actions he witnesses on a regular basis and stated that that is the reason he chooses to live in the city and for a period of time chose to live in the drop in center in calgary when he could have lived in housing on the reservation.

Also I clearly stated the government should not take away all programs designed to help native status individuals. I had said I believe it is time that certain programs should be rethought to eliminate abuse of the system. I think the post secondary education, education, housing programs are all invaluable. Heck, I would not have met the gentlemen I had the above mentioned conversation with if it wern't for those programs. They truly are great. However, I believe that changes could be made to make these programs more effective, and also defend them against abuse by those who would choose to abuse them. Additionally, I believe some changes could be made to align the interests of the entire population of this nation as well as native status individuals.

If one were to apply the "here first" policy to other aspects of life it just wouldn't work. I got my drivers licence when I was 18. therfore I should pay the price of what it cost for gas at that time for the rest of my life. Or when I first started fishing as a kid, I was allowed to keep 2 bulltrout in my favorite waterway. I should be allowed to do that and the changes should only be applied to those who come after me. It just doesn't work. Political, societal, and economical changes force changes in our laws, rights and privileges. not one single nationality or race should be completely exempt to these changes. What happens if the world were to start running out of food. "as long as we have enough to feed the first nations first". Sorry. Not that I am insensitive as you claim me to be, It is just not "fair" in my opinion. And Because I can guess what you will say in rebuttle..... you will disregard everything I say except the word "fair" and then list " is it fair that we take all their land, drive them from their homes, ect." Lets just cut the BS right now. That was hundreds of years ago. It is unfortunate. And no it wasn't fair. But today is today and not hundreds of years ago. We still have several great programs to help these people. If we met on the river and you shot me dead. Would you think it logical that your great grandchildren Must pay for my great grandchildren to goto college even if they lived in harmony on the same street in the same neighborhood? I highly doubt it.


oh and by the way. you are definitely the first person to claim I have a lack of compassion...... whatever you need to say to make yourself feel better bud.