Cougar hunting

[Nait Hadya]

weather boot hunting or with hounds,it's a great hunt.

[Bluedog]

This has become a very intresting post, I normally don't post on here but I thought I would for a change. I have been hunting Cougar's in Alberta for the past 22 years. I was trained by one of the best houndsman and most ethical people I have every been hunting with. Back in the day tracks for chasing training and killing were far and few between because the season was not managed in an appropriate way. Then along came the 3 month season with a quota system. This worked so well that Cougars were albe to expand there original range to places in the province were historical there were none or very few. The reason for this was again miss management, but what it did do was put Alberta on the map for having some of the Biggest Cat's in north America. On an average year the cougar conflicts were from 180 to 200 incidents a year. Last year they hit an all time high of 687 cougar conflicts.
If the quota had been raised in the CMA's years earlier it would have never gotten this out of hand. Now with more miss management the goverment is trying to bring back the numbers to prevent more conflicts. Proven time and time again in the states by shooting females with sub-adults will only increase the very conflicts they are trying to prevent.
Wolf Medicine, very good posts and information. Are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Assosiation? If not why?
Steve, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
Nait Hadya, I have asked you this before, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
AxiALe, are you a Member?
How about you Houndman?
The reason I ask all of you this is that with your support and memberships we may have a stronger voice with the goverment and how they manage the sport of Cougar hunting with Hounds that we all love so much. If we don't we are going to loose hunting with hounds
Last year at the annual meeting during the field trials the head predator Biologist for Alberta gave us a talk about cougar managment in the province and what we can expect in the coming years, He then opened it up for questions and answered every question from the crowd.
Mulecrazy us houndsmen are a little sensitive about our sport and how it's managed and comments from other people who know little or nothing about the animal we pursue. We lost Bobcat hunting with hounds down south two years ago, with their numbers increasing and range expanding and us being naive we all thought the logical thing would be too increase the opportunity, worng.
Should we be allowed to chase Bears and Lynx in the province with Hounds, Hell yes, will it ever happen ABSOLUTLY NO! Hunting with Hounds is a dying sport. Thus the sensitivity.
Walking buffalo, I'm the type of person who would take a fellow out at no cost to him and through hard work and determination help him Harvest a nice big male Cougar, a true Alberta Trophy, But I went back and read a bunch of your old posts and you are truely a know it all chit disturber. It's people like you who have an opinion on everything is why I never post on this forum.
That goes for you too IShoot bambi AZZ CLOWN.
Ladies please don't post a reply.
Mulecrazy if you start playing nice I will trade a hunt with you sometime.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

This has become a very intresting post, I normally don't post on here but I thought I would for a change. I have been hunting Cougar's in Alberta for the past 22 years. I was trained by one of the best houndsman and most ethical people I have every been hunting with. Back in the day tracks for chasing training and killing were far and few between because the season was not managed in an appropriate way. Then along came the 3 month season with a quota system. This worked so well that Cougars were albe to expand there original range to places in the province were historical there were none or very few. The reason for this was again miss management, but what it did do was put Alberta on the map for having some of the Biggest Cat's in north America. On an average year the cougar conflicts were from 180 to 200 incidents a year. Last year they hit an all time high of 687 cougar conflicts.
If the quota had been raised in the CMA's years earlier it would have never gotten this out of hand. Now with more miss management the goverment is trying to bring back the numbers to prevent more conflicts. Proven time and time again in the states by shooting females with sub-adults will only increase the very conflicts they are trying to prevent.
Wolf Medicine, very good posts and information. Are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Assosiation? If not why?
Steve, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
Nait Hadya, I have asked you this before, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
AxiALe, are you a Member?
How about you Houndman?
The reason I ask all of you this is that with your support and memberships we may have a stronger voice with the goverment and how they manage the sport of Cougar hunting with Hounds that we all love so much. If we don't we are going to loose hunting with hounds
Last year at the annual meeting during the field trials the head predator Biologist for Alberta gave us a talk about cougar managment in the province and what we can expect in the coming years, He then opened it up for questions and answered every question from the crowd.
Mulecrazy us houndsmen are a little sensitive about our sport and how it's managed and comments from other people who know little or nothing about the animal we pursue. We lost Bobcat hunting with hounds down south two years ago, with their numbers increasing and range expanding and us being naive we all thought the logical thing would be too increase the opportunity, worng.
Should we be allowed to chase Bears and Lynx in the province with Hounds, Hell yes, will it ever happen ABSOLUTLY NO! Hunting with Hounds is a dying sport. Thus the sensitivity.
Walking buffalo, I'm the type of person who would take a fellow out at no cost to him and through hard work and determination help him Harvest a nice big male Cougar, a true Alberta Trophy, But I went back and read a bunch of your old posts and you are truely a know it all chit disturber. It's people like you who have an opinion on everything is why I never post on this forum.
That goes for you too IShoot bambi AZZ CLOWN.
Ladies please don't post a reply.
Mulecrazy if you start playing nice I will trade a hunt with you sometime.

Good post Bluedog. I will play nice with you. I really enjoy the way in which you entered this thread. Like i have said elswhere, I agree whole heartedly that using dogs is the best way. You do give some good reasoning towards having conflicts with problem cats, I am just not sure it will happen here in this case, in this type of area. I am no biologist so and not a cougar hunter, so I definetly concede I may be wrong. In your post you talk about how cougar incidents are on the rise. I would guess that that may be just because there populations are much higher and people are infringing on their habitat. Would it not make sense then to start shooting some females and bring the population back down to a more managed level. It would seem to me that in order to help control the population, females must be included in the equation.

ps. a trade can occur

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

Your ill conceived attempts at taking A poke at houndsmen is ridiculous and petty.

Have always had that option. That is nothing new. Maybe you can luck out and shoot yourselves the first nursing female you can find and starve out A couple kittens. Odds are real good that is gonna be the likely result.

And is just another cougar management by public opinion rather then by sound reasonable management principles.

WM.

noone poked anything at hound guys. it was pointed out that the last time the subject came up that the main points had been well covered.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Why so sensitive Wolfmedicine? I've never poked at hounds or houndsmen.

I support opening up the foothills and mountains to a fall No hound season. The fact that you would take this as a Poke, well, that answers my question.

to be clear, and im speaking for myself but i know buff feels the same, all hound guys should not be lumped together as a group of elitists unwilling to share. nait has shown himself to be one of the open guys to embrace a new hunting opportunity for albertans. he is not alone as a houndsmen feeling that way.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

are you for real????? i never claimed to be an expert at much, but i do see what cats have done to the ungulates around cypress hills.

sorry you feel that dog guys are the only ones ever qualified to shoot a cat, but the reality is that there is no good reason not to have a season....around cypress hills particularly.

a lot like saying that black bears should only be shot over bait or with dogs as a female with young could be mistakenly killed. well, it could and may happen....but remember the whole reason for allowing the hunt, and thats to reduce numbers a little. the laws i believe are already stated that you cant shoot a mother with spotted kittens right? the same as not being allowed to shoot a momma bear with cubs. seems to me to be win win. hunters get a crack, and numbers can be reduced.

.

this is where we are in agreement. females may be shot and young cats may become collateral damage....either on their own or by becoming next in line of the gun.

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

if you recall, the spring bear season in ontario was cancelled because some cubs were supposedly orphaned. the same senario could occur,for real, boot hunting cats, as i am certain your not going to be able to sex that cat on the ground unless you have a lot of experience or if it is a very large cat. that begs the question,does SRD accept this as part of their mamagement plan? if cat numbers are that out of control to the point they are pests, probably.

i have offered up advice to those wanting to boot hunt a cat and i have no problem with them giving it a go,good luck. there maybe some who are over protective of their hounding,but they are mostly those who see it as a cash cow.

nait in agreement over the female and young issue, and also on a reason why hound guys are opposed.

Originally Posted by IR_mike

I do not know what the threat would be in a one month season in WMUs eg.500, 514,503, etc where no one runs hounds and it is legal to hunt them year round on private property anyways.

agreement again...only i was more concentrating on the cypress hills area throughout the discussion.

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

And ishootbambi.. Are you giving the shrug your shoulders. Kill the momma and get the kittens by starvation as A good reasonable and ethical manner of reducing the numbers... Come on...... Your kidding right?? I mean it you are kidding Right??? Am sure that is not your intention. WM.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

quotas wont be affected, numbers will be reduced (albeit very slightly), and more sportsmen will have the opportunity to hunt cats (and for me close to home). asking if i advocate intentionally starving kitens is ridiculous and i hope you know that. its already against the law to shoot a mother with spotted kittens.....so no sweat. .!!!

we are still agreeing on the same points.

Originally Posted by Erik

. I understand why houndsmen are reluctant to accept a foot-only cougar hunt. There are so many regulations to restrict the use of hounds that anything to further restrict the use of hounds, whether real or perceived, can set people off a bit.

a valid point, but shouldnt be a concern as already mentioned.

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

And Walking buffalo. You must have problems reading. So I will bold it up for you. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE DOGS TO HUNT COUGAR IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. NEVER HAVE. NOTHING IN THE REGULATIONS SAYS THAT YOU MUST USE DOGS TO HUNT COUGAR. GO OUT AND DO YOUR THING WHEN THE SEASON IS OPEN. ]

this is where you are missing the point. the excitement from some is about the NEW opportunity to hunt cats in areas NEVER BEFORE open. more opportunity for all albertans to enjoy and with the goal of reducing numbers. again....win and win!

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

Not a cougar hunter, never ever claimed to be. What does entertain me is how you, houndsmen, and wolf medicine have gotten all puffy chested at the first sign of someone hunting different then you. Its like the fly vs spin casting fishermen, or the archery vs anti archery arguments that happen here. very entertaining..

Don't get me wrong here, I would much much much rather hunt cats with dogs. I agree it is a better way of doing it, for a few reasons(success rates, knowing your target, trophy potential). Never argued any of that. .

still noone arguing.

Originally Posted by AxiALe

well maybe that they opened this some more changes could come,i sure would like to see an early pursuit season opened for the hounds and open up bear and bobcat also to the hound hunters!!!

sorry...didnt see this until now....but wholeheartedly agree. dont forget lynx. more opportunity is good.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

your conclusion that a No hound season is a dangerous management decision, yet Landowner shoot on sight rules are OK and so is hunting without hounds in the winter.

Your conclusion does not make sense. How can it be OK for hunters to hunt without hounds in Winter but not in the fall? Do Landowners just shoot males?

What about the Female quota harvested by houndhunters? Is there really an ability for houndhunters to be 100% sure that these females don't have cubs or yearlings?

if you read it close, youll see the main points are still being agreed on.

[/QUOTE]for all the moaning about wanting more hunting opportunity in this province, and particularly more predator control.....HERE IT IS. quit griping about it already and embrace a victory for the hunting community.!!![/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

if I go and tree a nursing female.. I can see it as soon as I look at her belly.

Now there is kittens starving. Cause you and I can't tell from the ground if that cat is nursing or not.

So how do you deem this to be ethical??? Knowing that all things are rarely perfect.

But also that a real balance of ethics and reality does require some acceptance of loss and gain.

keep running perceived BS just to try and save some face. Now it is just annoying. And if you wanna keep getting beat on then please do continue. But to take a quote... "You have been weighed, You have been measured, And you have been found lacking."


Nothing personal. Just pointing out the blatantly obvious once again. Getting to the feeling that I am in the company of the "Galactically stupid" Spend the time. look it up in the Urban dictionary.. Too bad this discussion cannot be in the manner of truth and facts. And now it is really redundant. Can we have some real, well thought out views. As always good luck gents. Enjoy the discussion, Wish it was more of a challenge. Can I please have some more misguided challenges??

WM.

the first part of this one is still good. are you seeing a trend here? for the most part on the main points everyone is agreeing. you didnt like the deer analogy with fawns....ok, how about smacking the momma wolf out of a pack.....or how about shooting a momma gopher with nursing young? seems to me that you might hold cougars to a higher level than other wildlife. that may be wher we differ. i dont think cats are lower than bears, sheep or elk.....but i dont think they are higher either. to me all wildlife gets the same level of respect when we are talking about hunting them. for me that even includes antelope for all the lack of enthusiasm i have for them. no way would i intentionally have one suffer at my hands on purpose.

the last part though is where yuou go south. here we are having an adult conversation and all of a sudden you get juveniule on us. the facts are what they are, and we are on the same page. the difference is in opinion. you have the opinion that this hunt is bad, and some think its good. to resort to name calling and throwing a fit is where i lose interest.

oh, and nice try declaring yourself the winner.

Originally Posted by Wolf Medicine

Remember gents, You only get famous on the internet for Being an *****%?le.. ]

congratulations!!!.....i hope you enjoy your 15 minutes.


you want the last word...go ahead and have it. you vowed not to return to this topic in post 35.......now im telling you im outta this one. ill have a discussion with someone acting like an adult, but the name calling has caused me to lose interest. only difference is my word is good. cya in the next topic.

dale

oh, and when i do book a cat hunt, ill be aware of what kind of guy i wish to hunt with. im sure there are others who feel the same.....something to keep in mind for those thinking they might be anonymous on here....you arent.

dale

[walking buffalo]

Bluedog, I enjoyed and was educated with the first half of your post, then you let your emotions take over.

I have and will support the use of hounds for cats, all species, and bears, even wolves. Dogs should also be allowed to accompany hunters for all species of big game. Dogs should also be allowed for the use of recovering shot big game. I would also support a Winter hound season for cougars OUTSIDE of the CMU's. That's my opinion.

Many of the houndsmen here seem to have issues with my posts. Unfortunately, the main difficulty is accepting the logic that I present. Wolfmedicine has twice misquoted me in this thread in reply to my first two posts, he's batting 1000.

I'm not saying this to ruffle your coat, so if I'm truely off base, please reply.
I get the feeling that Houndsmen feel isolated and threatened. How about if the Houndsmen association and it's members were less confrontational and more willing to share their concerns. You may be suprised at how many hunters will be willing to throw their support behind you. It's tough to do when many Hound hunters just bitch if they don't like what was said. Together, we are stronger.

There are some great points in your post, my reponse in red.

Originally Posted by Bluedog

This has become a very intresting post, I normally don't post on here but I thought I would for a change. I have been hunting Cougar's in Alberta for the past 22 years. I was trained by one of the best houndsman and most ethical people I have every been hunting with. Back in the day tracks for chasing training and killing were far and few between because the season was not managed in an appropriate way. Then along came the 3 month season with a quota system. This worked so well that Cougars were albe to expand there original range to places in the province were historical there were none or very few. The reason for this was again miss management, but what it did do was put Alberta on the map for having some of the Biggest Cat's in north America. On an average year the cougar conflicts were from 180 to 200 incidents a year. Last year they hit an all time high of 687 cougar conflicts.
If the quota had been raised in the CMA's years earlier it would have never gotten this out of hand. Now with more miss management the goverment is trying to bring back the numbers to prevent more conflicts. Proven time and time again in the states by shooting females with sub-adults will only increase the very conflicts they are trying to prevent.

IMO ^^ In bold above, That's concisely the catalyst of the present cougar population issue! I have had conversations with SRD's predator bio's for years. I always questioned why the quota's are so low and why WMU's with cougar populations bordering CMU's do not have a hunting season. I believe the radically conservative quotas are a result of a concern with influencing ongoing studies in some areas, and a "Blinder's" effect to the true cougar population in whole. Since the "science" wasn't there, adequate management decisions was also lacking.

Wolf Medicine, very good posts and information. Are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Assosiation? If not why?
Steve, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
Nait Hadya, I have asked you this before, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?
AxiALe, are you a Member?
How about you Houndman?
The reason I ask all of you this is that with your support and memberships we may have a stronger voice with the goverment and how they manage the sport of Cougar hunting with Hounds that we all love so much. If we don't we are going to loose hunting with houndsLast year at the annual meeting during the field trials the head predator Biologist for Alberta gave us a talk about cougar managment in the province and what we can expect in the coming years, He then opened it up for questions and answered every question from the crowd.

Please inform non-hound hunters what the concerns are. You may get more support, even from those who never intend to hunt with dogs.


Mulecrazy us houndsmen are a little sensitive about our sport and how it's managed and comments from other people who know little or nothing about the animal we pursue. We lost Bobcat hunting with hounds down south two years ago, with their numbers increasing and range expanding and us being naive we all thought the logical thing would be too increase the opportunity, worng.
Should we be allowed to chase Bears and Lynx in the province with Hounds, Hell yes, will it ever happen ABSOLUTLY NO! Hunting with Hounds is a dying sport. Thus the sensitivity.

You've got my support for Hound seasons for these additional species. "Thus the sensitivity"...... And this is where some houndhunters are isolating the community. Just because a person supports a No-hound season, that does not mean they are Anti-hounds. Some people would help their cause by choosing the appropriate battles. I suggest fighting with those who want to end houdhunting.


Walking buffalo, I'm the type of person who would take a fellow out at no cost to him and through hard work and determination help him Harvest a nice big male Cougar, a true Alberta Trophy, But I went back and read a bunch of your old posts and you are truely a know it all chit disturber. It's people like you who have an opinion on everything is why I never post on this forum.

I'm sure my past posts will be scoured by the houndhunters again, it happens every time this issue comes up. It's rather unique to this group.

I'm quite well looked after regarding invites to hunt with hounds. Many hound hunter's do agree with what I say. In terms of your posting here, I wish you posted more, share YOUR knowledge. Maybe your concerns will recieve more attention and support, though your insults don't help.

Dale


That goes for you too IShoot bambi AZZ CLOWN.
Ladies please don't post a reply.
Mulecrazy if you start playing nice I will trade a hunt with you sometime.

[Wolf Medicine]

Astounding. All the sudden it looks like A real discussion. Have nothing more to add already said it. Unless there is some other aspect brought up and I may have some insight into. Never vowed to be gone forever.. lol. Also am not "Anonymous" And what are you threatening me with exactly. Is that some tactic to try and make my views on the subject irrelevant?? As it turns out. Finally the best set of posts in the last 24 hours. And bluedog. I have been A director for the ATHA. Quite recently. Congratulations gents on pulling it up outta the mud. Doubt it has much more of A run now. But good work if it all turns out alright in the end. Ain't saying I am done. But I am out for now..

Good night and good hunting.

WM.

[steve]

Bluedog- No I am not a member of the ATHA, but will look be looking into it.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

....Nait Hadya, I have asked you this before, are you a member of the Alberta Treeing Hound Association? If not why?

Should we be allowed to chase Bears and Lynx in the province with Hounds, Hell yes, will it ever happen ABSOLUTLY NO! Hunting with Hounds is a dying sport. Thus the sensitivity.

i don't recall that question,anyways,i am a past member and i may renew.

i disagree that it is a dying sport. i have sold hound pups to guys that have never hunted before and the inquiries indicate that there are many who are just itching to give it a try.

i have traveled the same areas winter after winter and no one is trapping the lynx or bobcat that i am aware of. there are registered traplines in the area but they restrict their trapping to 30 feet from the road and for martin only. it is time that SRD remove these permits for non activity,close the area to trapping and open the hound season for lynx and bobcat.

zones that are closed to baiting black bear, should be opened to houndsmen for the hunting of black bear.

why would i join a group that admits defeat without losing the battle?

[steve]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

i have traveled the same areas winter after winter and no one is trapping the lynx or bobcat that i am aware of. there are registered traplines in the area but they restrict their trapping to 30 feet from the road and for martin only. it is time that SRD remove these permits for non activity,close the area to trapping and open the hound season for lynx and bobcat.

X2 a quota or draw season on the small cats would be good. Talked to trappers that havent caught a lynx in years and their lines are loaded with tracks, there not gonna catch them in a marten cubby.

[Bluedog]

Gentlemen thank you for your constructive responses,
The meeting our club had two years ago with the predator Biologist was unbelievably frank and clear to all of us, Hound hunting is being threated by the anti's much more than we think. They are a much bigger organization, well funded and better educated bunch then all of us combined. We have hound hunt now based on soild science, that's it! The CMA's have not been raised in the past not only to poor managment of the species but to discourage the promotion of more hound hunters getting into the sport. The last thing they want to have is more guys getting more dogs and the sport spreading to include the rest of the province and additional game animals like Bears, cats and coon's.
I was there in the crowd when all the ruff tuff unshaven sleeveless hound hunters and outfitters were just giving it to this Biologist and he didn't disagree with any of them about hunting Bears or any other species, what he did do was clearly provide the facts and instruct us to do our best to try and not lose what we already have. Bring the hound hunting debate to the public about increasing oportunities to hunt more game with dogs and you will loose hound hunting altogether. KILL AND ORPHAN A BUNCH OF KITTENS, COUGAR HUNTING LIKE GRIZZLY BEAR HUNTING IN ALBERTA IS FINISHED
It's happening all over the states as I write this.
Yes we have to stick together to protect what we have and any support is certainly welcome.
Increasing opportunity with hounds is a dead issue, welcome to reality.

[steve]

Bluedog, have you been to any of the meetings lately with Nate Webb? Concerning the future of hound hunting and how the allocations will be sorted out this winter?

Thats a pretty negative outlook, rolling over and letting the anti's win?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

Gentlemen thank you for your constructive responses,
The meeting our club had two years ago with the predator Biologist was unbelievably frank and clear to all of us, Hound hunting is being threated by the anti's much more than we think. They are a much bigger organization, well funded and better educated bunch then all of us combined. We have hound hunt now based on soild science, that's it! The CMA's have not been raised in the past not only to poor managment of the species but to discourage the promotion of more hound hunters getting into the sport. The last thing they want to have is more guys getting more dogs and the sport spreading to include the rest of the province and additional game animals like Bears, cats and coon's.
I was there in the crowd when all the ruff tuff unshaven sleeveless hound hunters and outfitters were just giving it to this Biologist and he didn't disagree with any of them about hunting Bears or any other species, what he did do was clearly provide the facts and instruct us to do our best to try and not lose what we already have. Bring the hound hunting debate to the public about increasing oportunities to hunt more game with dogs and you will loose hound hunting altogether. KILL AND ORPHAN A BUNCH OF KITTENS, COUGAR HUNTING LIKE GRIZZLY BEAR HUNTING IN ALBERTA IS FINISHED
It's happening all over the states as I write this.
Yes we have to stick together to protect what we have and any support is certainly welcome.
Increasing opportunity with hounds is a dead issue, welcome to reality.

this is canada,not the states. hounding is alive and well in canada and will remain so four many many years to come. i can see only expanding opportunities in the future. the old boys club trying to stop hunters from hunting the ever expanding lion population is backwoods thinking. as well,trying to tie grizz to cats is an emotional rant and a seperate issue.

[Bluedog]

Steve, Nate Webb is the Biologist, haven't talk to him lately but have seen the new CMA's and Quota's
Rolling over and letting the Anti's win? is this directed at me Steve or just an overall statement? What are you doing about increasing our hound opportunity?
Letting the Anti's win is furthest from the true if your refering to me, but I'm smart enough to know that the only way to beat them at there own game is through sold science.
Nait, the club has pushed several times to have Lynx which is a fur bearing animal to be listed as a huntable game species, they have approched the Trapper's assosiation, which had their concerns but agreed with the proposal put forth, The proposal was very well put together but was shot down in flying colors.
I guess me and you may only agree on them Nance hounds being good big game dogs, but then again I think they are a little soft for the colder weather.
It's so easy to poke holes at someone! Houndsmen historical can't even get along with each other let alone anyone else or group.
The emotional rant cuts deep houndsman, I'm sensitive Stop it NaitWhat are you doing about increasing our hound opportunity?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

....What are you doing about increasing our hound opportunity?

what can i do,except play by the rules and be honest about what is going on out there. i may not care to be associated with those who see lion hunting here in alberta as a source of income. nor those that see me as competition to their pay check. correct me if i am wrong,are those that lead the atha outfitters?

have a look at my last litter of cold weather walker hounds...lol

[Bluedog]

Nait we do agree on something, that is being honest and playing buy the rules, down my way a big cat track to any of the outfitters means all the rules go out the window until its dead and in the back of the truck. I have over heard them talking about me, stating I'm really no threat to them because I just tree 95% of the cats I chase with little or no killing.
Last season the outfitter north of me killed 3 females in 4 days and the female season was shut down in the first week. I heard his guide say the only reason they shot the one female was because she was bigger than her sub-adult male kitten.
Yes you are right most of the past ATHA Presidents were outfitters. That has changed somewhat in the past two years.
Brian did a good job the years prior and is a true respectable houndsman.
Prior to that it was all in their own interest.
I have seen your last litter, and let me tell you those are some fine haired up cold weather track pounding machines you got there. Congradulations on your breeding program.

[PLOTT]

Well guys this is very good reading. I do not think the future of cougar hunting is as bleak as one may be lead to believe. There are a couple different views on the sport, the money one and the treeing and selective harvesting. The hard part is balancing the two. A pursuit season like in most provinces and states would go along way but SRD is sure this would be a perseption problem with public. The sport has changed with technology and somewhere we will have to govern ourselves and ask for rule changes to help our sport. The quotas are very low , cougar quality high but wasted when land owners can kill just for crossing their land. If they are not a problem why kill them. They have a high trophy value, if too many quotas should be increased. A bobcat season would help as most houndsman want to run hounds and the spotted cats are very sporting.We should not fight amonst one another. Increased oppurtunity is what everyone wants. And yes I have took many people for a nice cat with no reward asked.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

have a look at my last litter of cold weather walker hounds...lol

How often do you have litters? Do you breed often or just the odd litter?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by Erik

How often do you have litters? Do you breed often or just the odd litter?

not very often,and attempts have been made (wife) to sway/prevent me from creating any more lion, hunters of the four legged varity...lol pm if you would like any more information,pictures etc.

going out on a limb here(pun intended),hunters who cannot seem to get a grasp of reality in seperating lions from their lovable house cats are the ones who are the biggest threat to hounding. this almost maternal connection to house cats make them the worst anti hunter,the "hunter anti hunter".

[Wolf Medicine]

Nait. Think that is quite out on the limb as you suggested. Not seeing much of that view here. As far as it goes. Seems like A pretty extreme view on outfitters as usual. Personally we might kill one or two females A year. But do believe it is good management to kill the quota of females. Not just the toms. And yes Brian is A outfitter. Has been since we started working together. So that when we are taking clients we are legal, And insured. He could have just got A guides license through me. But went the extra to ensure that no one "Gets hung out to dry." so to speak.. There are A very small percentage of the houndsmen in the province that you can actually call licensed outfitters. The rest are resident hunters that really should not be selling their services in the first place. And Brian and I both got tired of getting beat on for no good reason, By the membership of the ATHA that we were trying to represent for the good of all houndsmen, And of banging our heads against the wall with SRD. Personally despise the fear mongering "Oh please don't let the public find out that there are houndsmen out there." Thinking that we need to hide and sneak around leads to the public being blindsided when the anti's do come, and they will. I would rather have A generally informed public that knows that hunting cougar with hounds is the only truly consistently effective method. So good that SRD themselves contract houndsmen to go get the ones that are A problem animal. Much better to be informative then clandestine and to have them blindsided by some big media push by the anti's that would portray houndsmen in the worst light they can produce or make up. Hence what did happen to those that used to course coyotes. Can tell you that at least in the rural areas the general public is very much mildly informed. And have rarely come across A resident that doesn't welcome the removal of A cougar from their property. The don't let them see us mentality is what will be the downfall. Promoting the ability to selectively harvest, And have considerably more control over a situation with a problem animal is good promotion in my books. And expanding the CMA's and the opportunities to harvest across the province is A good thing. With my previously described reservations about the see and shoot hunt season. And the rare farmer getting one on his property is unlikely to do much damage to the over all quality of the animals available to the serious hunter. Same concerns with the landowners and young left behind. But do truly believe it is A individuals right to protect their property and themselves. So would not take that away ever. Don't care if it is a person, elephant, mosquito, or grizzly.

WM.

[blueskys]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Wildlife managers from SRD must be stupid. Allowing hunting of Cougars without dogs in the winter season and allowing Landowners to shoot cats on sight.

I have had what I think is a cougar 2 nights in a row in my yard. It was pitch black out both times but the sound it made sure sounds the same as a cougar.

The dog went nuts the night before last and when I let him in you could hear the cat howl/scream about 8 times. Last night it came around again and I went outside with the dog and it took off.

We have chickens and turkeys so I believe that is what is bringing it around.

The wife downloaded cougar and bobcat sounds off the internet and it definately sounds like a cougar.

20 years ago there were no bears in the area, now there are lots. I think maybe the cougars are coming back as well!

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by blueskys

20 years ago there were no bears in the area, now there are lots. I think maybe the cougars are coming back as well!

Just out of curiosity, where are you posting from blueskys?

[blueskys]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Just out of curiosity, where are you posting from blueskys?

That's the weird part, 8 miles east of Redwater, about 40 miles North of Edmonton. I phoned fish and wildlife and asked if they had dropped any cougars off in the area. The lady pretty much laughed at me and asked if I wasn't sure it was a coyote I heard.

I explained that I was very familiar with coyotes and was pretty sure it was some kind of cat. I have only heard a cougar once before and that was about 35 years ago when we lived near Calling Lake. A few years ago cougars were seen about 12 miles east of my place, near Lamont.

About a month ago I was down at the river [NSR] checking it out and saw tracks I first mistook for a small bear but looking closer I realized they were either cougar or Lynx. That is about a mile from home.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by blueskys

I phoned fish and wildlife and asked if they had dropped any cougars off in the area. The lady pretty much laughed at me and asked if I wasn't sure it was a coyote I heard.

Coffee shop rumor started by conspiracy minded farmers.

For the amount of people saying they witnessed this, no one in this day and age of cell phone cameras can ever provide evidence.

More inclined to believe in sasquatch at least there is a 35mm film clip of one.

[Wolf Medicine]

blueskys. Couldn't tell you one way or the other if it was or wasn't A cougar in your yard with what you say you have heard and seen. But two things I can tell you. #1 SRD is not in the business of moving cougars from one area into a more populated area. If they move A problem cat. They truck that sucker out to at least the general area of the forestry trunk road. Which is now down to very rare. As it rarely works, So now the standard policy is to destroy.....

And #2 There are cougar along the North Saskatchewan River A heck of A long way further out then you. Only problem is that for travel corridors they are quite restricted. Generally cougar are not that hot on spending time out in the wide open where they are exposed to being seen. Not saying that they never take some runs across some pretty wide open ground. But it is not generally where they are most comfortable. And with this problem and there general tendency to be fairly territorial. The population is not "Booming" so to say. But forty miles past Edmonton I would believe as definitely possible.

With the new system and opportunities. There may or may not be A few surprises to some as to how far East the cougars do roam. Know we will find out by spring.

WM.

[Nait Hadya]

there has been at least one documented case of a lion some 10 miles east of red deer and that was a few years ago. they are most certianly moving east along the river corridors as i have found evidence of their travels west of red deer. pressured by large scale logging and ever expanding populations in the west country,there is no where else for them to go,but east.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by blueskys

I have had what I think is a cougar 2 nights in a row in my yard. It was pitch black out both times but the sound it made sure sounds the same as a cougar.

The dog went nuts the night before last and when I let him in you could hear the cat howl/scream about 8 times. Last night it came around again and I went outside with the dog and it took off.

We have chickens and turkeys so I believe that is what is bringing it around.

The wife downloaded cougar and bobcat sounds off the internet and it definately sounds like a cougar.

20 years ago there were no bears in the area, now there are lots. I think maybe the cougars are coming back as well!

The post you quoted was sarcasm.

Cougars are expanding their range eastward from the Rockies, west from Saskatchewan, and from across the US border. Sask. now has a healthy cat population in the North and South Sask. river systems, and of course the Cypress Hills area. Saskatchewans Cougar Reporting system is very busy across the province. Manitoba is also comfirming cougars are there.

Wolves are also being killed annually in southern Sask.

This expansion has little to do with Logging or other human influences in their existing range. It is simply an expansion due to high cougar densities. The young and old need to find an empty territory of their own, this means travelling.

[Nait Hadya]

so, after all the meetings and lobbying by all interested parties, someone decides what is going to happen with lion seasons,cmas and harvest numbers. do you really trust that they have the best intentions and that personal preferences don't come into play? you must be aware of how fond reasearchers are of their collared subjects. outfitters are allowed only so many tags,you can bet they are damn protective of their lions too. how do you know they are not trying to advance their personal agenda and covering it up with talk of anti this and anti that....

[houndsmen]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

so, after all the meetings and lobbying by all interested parties, someone decides what is going to happen with lion seasons,cmas and harvest numbers. do you really trust that they have the best intentions and that personal preferences don't come into play? you must be aware of how fond reasearchers are of their collared subjects. outfitters are allowed only so many tags,you can bet they are damn protective of their lions too. how do you know they are not trying to advance their personal agenda and covering it up with talk of anti this and anti that....

What are your concern's Nate? Not enough cats on the quota? Zones closing to quick? Im not sure I can decifer what it is your getting at?

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by houndsmen

What are your concern's Nate? Not enough cats on the quota? Zones closing to quick? Im not sure I can decifer what it is your getting at?

houndsmen asked for extended seasons,pursuit only seasons and additional prey to hunt with hounds. the reasons i have heard, why these changes have been denied, seem to orginate from one source. no other user groups have brought forward any legitimate objections,that i am aware of.

what is the logic behind pretending to be worried about what others think,with regards to hounding. we kill deer,elk, moose,bear and dang near everything else in this province with out concern for what others think. why does the addition of hounds change the equasion.

going out on a limb again....SRD staff are no different then us,they have personal opinions, just as we do. thus having no sound scientific reasons why they refused to allow changes that were requested, leads me to suspect they are denying it for more personal reasons. the ethical/fair chase excuse? how is shooting a bighorn sheep from 600 yards more ethical than hounding. if you can hit the mark from that distance or farther,then is it fair chase? i doubt the animal has any chance to elude a hunter from that distance. the argument could be made that is not even sporting,just killing. my hounds have cold trailed cats many miles and never treed, lots of factors contribute to making my hunts sporting and fair chase, much beyond the comprehension of some couch hugging geek in an SRD office.

I am not interested in speculating this and that, what could happen, what might not happen,that's foolishness. i want to know where the opposition is and why their opinion carries more weight with SRD. most of the areas i frequent hunting lion are seldom used by others. what would be the conflict in me running a lion up on the side of ram mountain in march, august or december? we know they have proof of lions killing sheep there,ALL YEAR !

tradition, i have heard that word tossed out as a reason why changes are not coming forthwith. well,it is time to get rid of that mentality,SRD needs to cut the cord,grow a set and start making the right decisions. some tough questions are headed their way, soon, really soon....

[Big Daddy Badger]

The best place to hunt cougars is at the Empress Hotel in Victoria....just go to the Bengal Room....