2014 Hard Water Derby Discussion Thread

[RavYak]

I have been in discussions with the previous derby creators and they have agreed that I should take over the derbies going forward. I would like to thank AppleJax, coppercarbide and anyone else involved in the previous derbies for creating this idea and organizing it.

I would also like to thank previous participants and hope that they will continue to take part and hopefully share this thread with other individuals who may want to take part.

For those that don't know what the Hard Water Derby is. It is a winter long ice fishing photo based competition here on AO. Categories include largest fish of each species, total number of species and total length of combined species.

Last years derby ran from December 1st to March 15th and that is the plan for this years derby as well.

Last Years Species

Brook Trout
Brown Trout
Burbot
Cutthroat Trout
Lake Trout
Lake Whitefish
Northern Pike
Rainbow Trout
Rocky Mountain Whitefish
Walleye/Sauger
Yellow Perch

A couple changes I feel should be made to this list are the following.

a) Add Arctic Grayling, there are a handful of lakes both in the north and south of the province in which a person can catch Grayling through the ice.

b) Remove Sauger, Sauger are only found in our rivers and it isn't safe to ice fish rivers(actually illegal in parts of the province).

Submitting Fish Entry

To submit a fish entry a photo must be taken showing length. Photos using a measuring tape will of course be accepted but a measuring board is encouraged as it makes measuring much easier, more accurate and also provides a surface for the fish(more on that below).

In the past it was required that a token(printed paper showing variety of things) was required. This year a token will be provided but in the case you forget your token the fish will still be accepted as long as you can prove date(time stamp, exif data, written on piece of paper) and that it is you with the fish(write name on piece of paper, carve it into snow, take a picture with your face in it etc). As long as there is proof it was your fish and that it was caught this year we will accept it. That said using a token is advisable as it is much easier for us all and guarantees your fish will not be disallowed.

One change I am going to make mandatory is that fish must be entered in a reasonable fashion(say 2 weeks from catching said fish). We do not want people stockpiling fish and then submitting them at the end of the derby. Obviously stockpiled fish will not be counted. Exceptions to new members with qualifying pictures will be considered on a case by case basis as per the judges decision.

Another change I would like people to discuss is having to set the fish on a surface for pictures. I am proposing this as there were a few catch and release photos of fish covered in snow which I would have to think is harmful to the fish(especially when frozen to their eyes etc). If anyone has information(a link etc) saying that snow/ice is or isn't harmful to fish I would appreciate it as I haven't been able to find anything yet. If it is deemed best for the fishes safety to require a surface then that will be the case. On the same note, same as last year clearly dead or frozen fish will not be counted as this is intended to be a catch, photo and release style derby. You may choose to keep your fish if legal to do so but please do so after the photo.

There will be judges in place to rule on any discrepancies in pictures/measurements etc. AppleJax has asked to remain on as a judge and I will act as a judge as well. 3 judges sounds good to me so if someone else would like to be a judge let me know.

Standings and Prizes

My plan is to provide standing updates every other week in the middle of the week. As we get close to the end of the derby I will provide updates more often if I feel it is necessary.

As of right now prizes will be bragging rights. Signatures will be made up for the winners and I plan on setting up an all time record board as well.

I will try and figure out the legality of awarding other prizes in this situation and if it is determined we can award some other small prizes I will see if we can dig something up.

Other Rules

I think I covered most of the rules, the official rules will be posted in the submission thread so make sure to read them there before taking part.

If you have any comments on my proposed changes or would like to propose something else now is the time to do it as the rules will be made official in 2-3 weeks.

Thanks to everyone who takes part this year, I am hoping we will have a good turnout and that this will continue to be a yearly event.

[RavYak]

Lots of text above so just wanted to summarize the the changes I would like discussion on.

1) Add Arctic Grayling and remove Sauger from species list.
2) Token will be provided but not required as long as other conditions are met(see above).
3) Fish must be entered within 2 weeks.
4) Setting fish on surface mandatory? Need info regarding setting fish in snow/ice.
5) Need one more judge, any volunteers?
6) Standing updates every other week.
7) Prizes are bragging rights, perhaps more if we determine we can do so.

[CanadianBadass]

I can volunteer for judging, As I wont be entering it this year .. But monitor the forums daily !

[binnzer32]

Is it just length? Because length means nothing if there is no girth. ..

[RavYak]

Thanks CBA, I don't anticipate much need for judging this year but it is good to have a few people on board in case issues arise.

Binnzer although I agree that length alone isn't necessarily the best judge of a fish it is the best way to judge a CPR(catch, photo, release) tournament. The main reason for this is that getting pictures of measurements can be tricky and time consuming, the more measurements the longer the fish is out of the water and we want to minimize this. Other reasons include that girth measurements are easily manipulated and that you then have to then convert everything to an approximate weight to compare. If we were going to go by weight then using a scale would make much more sense but that only works if everyone uses the same scale calibrated the same which isn't an option either for this style of tournament.

[jacenbeers]

Suckers should be included as well but I think it should just be the biggest overall sucker and not by species.

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by jacenbeers

Suckers should be included as well but I think it should just be the biggest overall sucker and not by species.

I also Agree, Sucker as a Category, but not each species, just one combined category, Largest Sucker

Mind you, they are rare catch in the winter thru the ice, but still lol

[RavYak]

I thought about adding a sucker category and I guess we could if people actually want it but I personally think it is better to stick with the species that people actually want to target.

[binnzer32]

I have caught 39 inch pike that are 11 lbs and skinny and 39 inch pike close to 18 lb. Good luck with your tournament. I am out....

Originally Posted by RavYak

Thanks CBA, I don't anticipate much need for judging this year but it is good to have a few people on board in case issues arise.

Binnzer although I agree that length alone isn't necessarily the best judge of a fish it is the best way to judge a CPR(catch, photo, release) tournament. The main reason for this is that getting pictures of measurements can be tricky and time consuming, the more measurements the longer the fish is out of the water and we want to minimize this. Other reasons include that girth measurements are easily manipulated and that you then have to then convert everything to an approximate weight to compare. If we were going to go by weight then using a scale would make much more sense but that only works if everyone uses the same scale calibrated the same which isn't an option either for this style of tournament.

[Who Da Fisherman]

Originally Posted by binnzer32

I have caught 39 inch pike that are 11 lbs and skinny and 39 inch pike close to 18 lb. Good luck with your tournament. I am out....

So you could e 50-50 here, your loss.
WDF

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by binnzer32

I have caught 39 inch pike that are 11 lbs and skinny and 39 inch pike close to 18 lb. Good luck with your tournament. I am out....

Cool !

[WayneChristie]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I thought about adding a sucker category and I guess we could if people actually want it but I personally think it is better to stick with the species that people actually want to target.

Id rather catch suckers than trout at least they put up a good fight
biggest sucker in Alberta will always be a silver redhorse

[wags]

Originally Posted by WayneChristie

Id rather catch suckers than trout at least they put up a good fight
biggest sucker in Alberta will always be a silver redhorse

I agree. The fact of the matter is that I don't catch enough fish to have any input, but I caught a sucker, best fight I've ever had!

Cheers

[RavYak]

Ok sounds like people are interested in a sucker category as well so I will add that to the list. Anyone who disagrees with this now is the time to speak up.

Any comments regarding other proposed changes are greatly appreciated.

Mike, if you don't want anything to do with this tournament then please don't waste your time posting here...

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Ok sounds like people are interested in a sucker category as well so I will add that to the list. Anyone who disagrees with this now is the time to speak up.

Any comments regarding other proposed changes are greatly appreciated.

Mike, if you don't want anything to do with this tournament then please don't waste your time posting here...

Agree 100%

[huntsfurfish]

Why not keep it to the main species fished for, in almost all areas?

Such as RBT, Walleye, Pike and maybe Burbot.

Most anglers have easy access to all of those.

Just a thought.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

Why not keep it to the main species fished for, in almost all areas?

Such as RBT, Walleye, Pike and maybe Burbot.

Most anglers have easy access to all of those.

Just a thought.

I think including all the species is important as it adds an extra element of fun/challenge for some people.

That said your comment has sparked an idea and that is to create one more award category. To coin a phrase of mine from earlier in the year I would call it Best Alberta Slam and it would consist of the largest Rainbow, Walleye and Pike combination.

Does that sound like a reasonable idea to you?

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I think including all the species is important as it adds an extra element of fun/challenge for some people.

That said your comment has sparked an idea and that is to create one more award category. To coin a phrase of mine from earlier in the year I would call it Best Alberta Slam and it would consist of the largest Rainbow, Walleye and Pike combination.

Does that sound like a reasonable idea to you?

Not everyone has reasonable access to the reservoirs which contain the larger rainbows. Most are relegated to put and take trout ponds. maybe switch that out for burbot? Perch would be better, then have a separate "slam" for trout/char.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Not everyone has reasonable access to the reservoirs which contain the larger rainbows. Most are relegated to put and take trout ponds. maybe switch that out for burbot? Perch would be better, then have a separate "slam" for trout/char.

Agree. Perch would be better, any trout past the foothills are pothole stocked trout. Perch have a wider natural distribution throughout the province. The rainbows will be from fish farms into pothole lakes. I think it would be better to go as ala natural as possible.

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Not everyone has reasonable access to the reservoirs which contain the larger rainbows. Most are relegated to put and take trout ponds. maybe switch that out for burbot? Perch would be better, then have a separate "slam" for trout/char.

That's Kinda the point though, It gives us all incentive to go try somewhere new, And explore, This is not about who is the best fisherman, its about going out and enjoying our Fisheries as a Fun group competition, It in no means is meant to hand pick the best angler..... All for fun, and getting out and exploring , I think every game fish should be included....

Look at it from the other point of view, some people only have access to trout lakes, and cant catch a walleye or pike... So those guys get screwed...

It should be like last years hardwater.....

Total Length Of multiple species = Ultimate Angler
Each Specie has its own winner = Example - Largest RBT !

Measurements in length only, no girth... Like Rav mentioned. more time handling, less chance of survival....

I also think this should be C&R only like a real tourney !

^-------- My 2 Cents !

[Talking moose]

Some people will have access to trioploid release ponds. Others will be hundreds of miles away.

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Some people will have access to trioploid release ponds. Others will be hundreds of miles away.

I didn't think ALberta had Triploids ?

I could be wrong, But didn't think so !

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by CanadianBadass

I didn't think ALberta had Triploids ?

I could be wrong, But didn't think so !

Lol!!! Now you got me thinkin.... Maybe just brood stock?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

Not everyone has reasonable access to the reservoirs which contain the larger rainbows. Most are relegated to put and take trout ponds. maybe switch that out for burbot? Perch would be better, then have a separate "slam" for trout/char.

There are actually more places then many guys might think that a person can catch nice Rainbows at. Both Edmonton and Calgary have access to 20+ inch rainbows within a 2 hr drive and there are many other smaller put and take lakes that have either new stock or the even some over wintering lakes closer then that. Imo that is reasonable enough access for a derby like this.

You also have to remember that although some people may have to drive further for a rainbow trout others will have to drive just as far or further to catch a big pike or walleye.

The reason I would be against using perch instead of rainbows is that it requires little diversification and the slam could all be caught out of a single lake so it then becomes a competition of who lives closest to these prime lakes and who puts the most rod hours in. Rainbow trout adds in an aspect of diversification, it requires the individual to fish at least 1 other lake and to use different techniques. Also imo Rainbow Trout, Pike and Walleye are without question Alberta's 3 main sport species.

Everyone needs to remember that this competition is not meant to be easy. It might be easy to win a certain less targeted species like brook trout or grayling etc but to actually win the largest of a common species or any of the combination awards should be a pretty tough thing to do.

[RavYak]

Another thing I have been thinking about is if the Ultimate Alberta Angler award should be renamed. I think it is definitely the most difficult award to win and it does deserve some special recognition but I also feel the title Ultimate Alberta Angler makes other awards like Largest Pike or most species which in reality can be nearly as difficult to win. The problem I am having is thinking of how to word the award if it was named something else. Any ideas or should we just stick with Ultimate Alberta Angler?

[The Reel Deal]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Another thing I have been thinking about is if the Ultimate Alberta Angler award should be renamed. I think it is definitely the most difficult award to win and it does deserve some special recognition but I also feel the title Ultimate Alberta Angler makes other awards like Largest Pike or most species which in reality can be nearly as difficult to win. The problem I am having is thinking of how to word the award if it was named something else. Any ideas or should we just stick with Ultimate Alberta Angler?

You think too much!
Everything is fine the way it is. Just group the suckers, done!

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by The Reel Deal

You think too much!

Yes I definitely do that at times...

Many people seem to be on the same line for most of these topics so that is good.

One item that hasn't been discusses is setting a fish on a surface. I am thinking leave it as is for now with a recommendation to either use a surface or to make sure to at least wet the snow/ice where you plan on making measurements. Hopefully that will be good enough awareness.

Anyone with other comments on anything said here please share them, if things seem to be settled I will create official thread next week.

[CanadianBadass]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Yes I definitely do that at times...

Many people seem to be on the same line for most of these topics so that is good.

One item that hasn't been discusses is setting a fish on a surface. I am thinking leave it as is for now with a recommendation to either use a surface or to make sure to at least wet the snow/ice where you plan on making measurements. Hopefully that will be good enough awareness.

Anyone with other comments on anything said here please share them, if things seem to be settled I will create official thread next week.

You can go too princess auto and pick up a few feet of black rubber matting, I have he floor of my tent done in it and its a great landing/measurement surface as the heater in the tent keeps it warm and fish slime slides on it lol

NEW CATAGORY - LARGEST BAITFISH CAUGHT !


.

[hacman]

Not much changes needed, its a friendly competition, those that think the derby is beneath them need not take part. Really everyone in their own mind is the Ultimate Angler.

I'm fine with adding the grayling and sucker, no need for any other special categories.

I use the mats when in the tent but laying fish on the ice may be the only option for some. Just do your best to provide a barrier, wet ice, mat, tarp, etc. Get yourself set up for photos before you catch a fish to minimize time out of water. Length measurement only.

Thanks for taking the lead Rav.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by RavYak

There are actually more places then many guys might think that a person can catch nice Rainbows at. Both Edmonton and Calgary have access to 20+ inch rainbows within a 2 hr drive and there are many other smaller put and take lakes that have either new stock or the even some over wintering lakes closer then that. Imo that is reasonable enough access for a derby like this.

You also have to remember that although some people may have to drive further for a rainbow trout others will have to drive just as far or further to catch a big pike or walleye.

The reason I would be against using perch instead of rainbows is that it requires little diversification and the slam could all be caught out of a single lake so it then becomes a competition of who lives closest to these prime lakes and who puts the most rod hours in. Rainbow trout adds in an aspect of diversification, it requires the individual to fish at least 1 other lake and to use different techniques. Also imo Rainbow Trout, Pike and Walleye are without question Alberta's 3 main sport species.

Everyone needs to remember that this competition is not meant to be easy. It might be easy to win a certain less targeted species like brook trout or grayling etc but to actually win the largest of a common species or any of the combination awards should be a pretty tough thing to do.

Well I for one won't be driving 2+ hours to catch stocked rainbows.

You make very good points though.

I'm usually fishing solo so unless I'm keeping the fish I won't be taking the time to measure and photo a fish on the ice, regardless of having a surface anything wet looses heat to the air/wind much quicker then when dry. so having this strictly c&r like CBA suggest is kind of restrictive for those of us who don't own a shelter or shack. just something else to take into consideration.