Your Idea's, to face lift our current Draw System - Page 7

hal53 · #**181** 06-24-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If you think fraudulent draws were an issue before wait till you tell some people that they can only put in for 3 things....every wife, kid, dog, grandma and grandpa is going to be taking the hunting course and putting in for draws ....

LC

they are now.....?????

OpenRange · #**182** 06-24-2013, 04:39 PM

I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the 999 system? Look at the stats, you need a P7-P13 to get drawn for most species in this province. When I looked,deer species only requires about a P2-P4 to be drawn, some zones a P0-P1 gets you drawn. My point is who cares if I 999 or enter the draw if I'm only sitting at a P1 in say Antlered Elk? It would be a waste sticking my name in the draw because I have no chance of actually getting a tag. It's idiotic to have people actually enter draws instead of 999 for most species all at once. You think people build up priority and then cash it in and not actually use the tags? Think of the mess when I put in for Antlered Elk and Moose because I need to increase my chances of getting drawn for SOMETHING, and then get drawn in both, we all now that would happen. Then people will really complain about wasting a tag because they don't need that much meat. Foolish thinking.

Deer Hunter · #**183** 06-24-2013, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

they are now.....?????

No $h!t. We have completely wrecked for each other already but very few people know it.

Roughneck Country · #**184** 06-24-2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by super7mag

I don't seeing 25-35$ deterring too many from putting in the draw . How high would you have to put it to actually deter applicants? 100? 1000? This is where the elitest arguement comes from. If the extra money goes into general coffers the government will pi$$ it away without doing anything for game management or conservation. There are things that can be approved on with the current system , the biggest being sure the Win card situation gets rectafied. Which brings up another question how does IBM get paid. If it gets a cut per applicant I can see a big problem there.

$25 or $30 / draw wouldn't deter people putting in a handful of draws but most people will not pay $25 to put in for 13 tags as the total cost to apply would be a few hundred $$'s, I personally would cut back on the number of draws I put in for.

The question of what to do wih the extra $$ is another debate, I would personally want it to go to habitat restoration for sheep or some other conservation effort, but more than likly like you say it would be lost with the government

sheepguide · #**185** 06-24-2013, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Prices could go up a bit I agree but that wont have a big effect imo.

Maybe increase the number of draw opportunities? Take back the outfitter and non resident tags, this adds +/- 20% to the number of tags available to the residents, harvest success rates being equal.

Add an early season archery draw - that may pull an additional 10-20% of applicants out of the rifle draw pool.

Now add a three week muzzleloader season in October - that may again pull 10%-20% out of the rifle draw pool.

Now the rifle draw pool has 30-40% fewer warm bodies applying and has 20% more tags. That will shorten or help to shorten draw times.
Get it?

Works in some zones. How bout zones with say 5 moose tags and a Aug. 25th - Sept. 15th bow season. Sept. 15 - Nov. 30 rifle season? All covered under them 5 tags and one draw. Also has possibly 1 NR tag and has 102 actual applicants not including those waiting on 999 to apply? Total guys looking for these tags are unknown unless you had to 999 by zone. As I believe antlered moose has 10,000+ applicants sitting under the 999 designation.
Explain how you would split these type seasons when the large number of applicants are 999ing?

Roughneck Country · #**186** 06-24-2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sakogreywolf

Right now if a person applies for 10 draws it costs approx. $36. Let's say fees are raised to say $25 and the total was then $250. Still affordable, but I have no doubt the difference would weed out a lot of the "applying for the sake of applying" group.

X2

Stewie · #**187** 06-24-2013, 04:43 PM

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up is that in order to apply for draws you don't have to show proof that you hold a valid hunting license or at least taken Hunter Ed...

I have heard stories of where anti hunters are getting drawn for tags and rip them up... Or situations where a buddy talks about getting into hunting but isn't to sure yet... So why not start building his / her priority

sheepguide · #**188** 06-24-2013, 04:43 PM

Another we need is you must have held a general hunting Licence the previous year to apply.
And to hunter host you must have held an active Alberta hunting Licence for the previous 3-5 years.

Deer Hunter · #**189** 06-24-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Works in some zones. How bout zones with say 5 moose tags and a Aug. 25th - Sept. 15th bow season. Sept. 15 - Nov. 30 rifle season? All covered under them 5 tags and one draw. Also has possibly 1 NR tag and has 102 actual applicants not including those waiting on 999 to apply? Total guys looking for these tags are unknown unless you had to 999 by zone. As I believe antlered moose has 10,000+ applicants sitting under the 999 designation.
Explain how you would split these type seasons when the large number of applicants are 999ing?

Tell me which zone you are referring to and I can make a suggestion. I haven't hunted moose for a long time but I have the draw/outfitter data and will try to make sense of it if possible.

Before the hockey game starts please.

Lefty-Canuck · #**190** 06-24-2013, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal53

they are now.....?????

LOL I fully realize that.....I guess I should have used a larger smilie face

There are way worse things to crack down on and fix than the 999 draw code. That is honestly small potatoes compared to some if the other issues.

LC

Duk Dog · #**191** 06-24-2013, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

By population, it is not "new" hunters, but hunters that are new to the draw system.

This is what happens as more and more general seasons are changed to draw seasons.

Removing the 999 system will not fix anything. Perform a test model and you'll see.

But I sure do love reading all these calls for hunter management while there is hardly a peep about Wildlife management.

If only it was as simple as so many seem to think. It is a very complex thing and it didn't get to this point overnight. What about the wildlife and habitat variables?

Roughneck Country · #**192** 06-24-2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I recall being told that the fees for draws were what they are because IBM needs to charge a fee to cover the cost of the draw infrastructure....I hope I am wrong but this is what I was told many years ago.

LC

If you think about the cost of hiring people to administer the system, store the data, maintain servers, the building the servers are in, and the profit IBM needs to make I am sure they will keep most of the $$ from the draws if not all of it. It probably cost a little to set up initially but is likly a cash cow now. I have been part of a few IT projects at work, never on time, always way more expensive than they were originally going to be, and no one can do a thing about it because its only a handful of people that know what is going on with the program, IT is the perfect racket.

Lefty-Canuck · #**193** 06-24-2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Another we need is you must have held a general hunting Licence the previous year to apply.

This isn't a bad idea....in addition you must buy a wildlife certificate before you can enter any draws would be a good change.

LC

hal53 · #**194** 06-24-2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

If you think about the cost of hiring people to administer the system, store the data, maintain servers, the building the servers are in, and the profit IBM needs to make I am sure they will keep most of the $$ from the draws if not all of it. It probably cost a little to set up initially but is likly a cash cow now. I have been part of a few IT projects at work, never on time, always way more expensive than they were originally going to be, and no one can do a thing about it because its only a handful of people that know what is going on with the program, IT is the perfect racket.

..and IBM has got the racketeering end of it down to a science....

Deer Hunter · #**195** 06-24-2013, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

If only it was as simple as so many seem to think. It is a very complex thing and it didn't get to this point overnight. What about the wildlife and habitat variables?

It's not simple, but it isn't rocket science either. And it needs change, if you don't agree on that then you truly have your head in the sand.

And until you can control the weather, disease, human encroachment, etc, all we can do is talk about the variables we can change. What about wildlife variables? What isn't included in wildlife variables?

Roughneck Country · #**196** 06-24-2013, 04:55 PM

Taking bets TJ will writeabout this issue in an upcoming AO issue!

sheepguide · #**197** 06-24-2013, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Tell me which zone you are referring to and I can make a suggestion. I haven't hunted moose for a long time but I have the draw/outfitter data and will try to make sense of it if possible.

Before the hockey game starts please.

Basically lots of the 400's are this way. Moose tags are highly sought after in both mountain and prarie WMU's and most guys sit in the 999 pool until well above the actual number it takes to get draws. Hence why some top quality zones requiring a 9 to get a tag only register 60 or less applicants.

sakogreywolf · #**198** 06-24-2013, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Another we need is you must have held a general hunting Licence the previous year to apply.
And to hunter host you must have held an active Alberta hunting Licence for the previous 3-5 years.

Agreed.

Duk Dog · #**199** 06-24-2013, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

It's not simple, but it isn't rocket science either. And it needs change, if you don't agree on that then you truly have your head in the sand.

And until you can control the weather, disease, human encroachment, etc, all we can do is talk about the variables we can change. What about wildlife variables? What isn't included in wildlife variables?

No where have I said change is not needed, in fact I do believe it is required. It can't be too far off of rocket science though because nobody on AO or with SRD has resolved it so far.
I merely mentioned wildlife and habitat variables to get people thinking of these factors because the bulk of what I keep reading about here is hiking fees, banning all NR, limiting applications, and restricting those not born here in Alberta.

Deer Hunter · #**200** 06-24-2013, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Basically lots of the 400's are this way. Moose tags are highly sought after in both mountain and prarie WMU's and most guys sit in the 999 pool until well above the actual number it takes to get draws. Hence why some top quality zones requiring a 9 to get a tag only register 60 or less applicants.

OK- 2012 stats
WMU 404 Antlered Moose
Current:
13 drawn from 146 applicants with 5 outfitter tags (4-B and 1-O)
probably expect 15 animals harvested from above(??)
P7's and above being drawn

Proposed:
9 resident archery draw tags
6 resident muzzle loader draw tags
13 resident rifle draw tags
0 outfitter tags
to come up with a similar harvest to what is occurring now.

9 archery tags at 25% success - 2 harvest
6 muzzleloader tags at 50% success -3 harvest
13 rifle tags at 75% success - 10 harvest
gives 15 expected harvest, but yet this has drawn 28 residents from the draw pool versus the 13 before.
Over a 100% increase in tags given out. Or getting drawn in half the time!

Before WB gets all worked up in unknown harvest rates etc, this is theoretical of course and only my opinion... not his

But it demonstrates how you can remove outfitter allocations, add resident opportunity to lower wait times and run similar harvest targets.

purgatory.sv · #**201** 06-24-2013, 05:22 PM

As mule deer general became less the draw and 999 has been my friend.

sheepguide · #**202** 06-24-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

OK- 2012 stats
WMU 404 Antlered Moose
Current:
13 drawn from 146 applicants with 5 outfitter tags (4-B and 1-O)
probably expect 15 animals harvested from above(??)
P7's and above being drawn

Proposed:
9 resident archery draw tags
6 resident muzzle loader draw tags
13 resident rifle draw tags
0 outfitter tags
to come up with a similar harvest to what is occurring now.

9 archery tags at 25% success - 2 harvest
6 muzzleloader tags at 50% success -3 harvest
13 rifle tags at 75% success - 10 harvest
gives 15 expected harvest, but yet this has drawn 28 residents from the draw pool versus the 13 before.
Over a 100% increase in tags given out. Or getting drawn in half the time!

Before WB gets all worked up in unknown harvest rates etc, this is theoretical of course and only my opinion... not his

But it demonstrates how you can remove outfitter allocations, add resident opportunity to lower wait times and run similar harvest targets.

Be nice if we can start just adding tags. Allot of problem could be resolved. Try 420. 5 draw tags. Non seperated between archery and rifle right now. So 5 tags complete. If I remember right it has 1 maybe 2 NR tags. So out of 7 tags how does your system work without just adding tags as they have already figured in success rates and what they want harvested so just adding tags doesn't work into the scenario.

walking buffalo · #**203** 06-24-2013, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewie

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up is that in order to apply for draws you don't have to show proof that you hold a valid hunting license or at least taken Hunter Ed...

I have heard stories of where anti hunters are getting drawn for tags and rip them up... Or situations where a buddy talks about getting into hunting but isn't to sure yet... So why not start building his / her priority

I'm glad to read you are also thinking along this line, and have proven that people skimmed past the several times I made this suggestion in this thread.

We really need to have the data from IBM showing the number of NR applicants, and the number of people applying that have never held a hunting licence.

Lefty-Canuck · #**204** 06-24-2013, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm glad to read you are also thinking along this line, and have proven that people skimmed past the several times I made this suggestion in this thread.

We really need to have the data from IBM showing the number of NR applicants, and the number of people applying that have never held a hunting licence.

Can you actually apply without having done the hunting course or having a hunting license before?

LC

pottymouth · #**205** 06-24-2013, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

That is flawed thinking in these days, where you realistically may only hunt "bull" antelope, moose or elk one more time in your life given the reality of the trends.

Reality is that you wont be able to hunt everything, as much as you want, so pick something (or in Hals case pick 3) that you focus on and leave the others to someone else to enjoy before they die with a Priority 85 in 15 different species.

You wouldn't change anything other than the perception.

Fix the wildlife management, verify Win #, tighter regulations on outfitters and NR , and you can start the healing process on draws, without limiting and removing more opportunity from residents Albertans.....After all this about face lifting the system to help Albertans not removing our privileges and opportunities...right?

hal53 · #**206** 06-24-2013, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm glad to read you are also thinking along this line, and have proven that people skimmed past the several times I made this suggestion in this thread.

We really need to have the data from IBM showing the number of NR applicants, and the number of people applying that have never held a hunting licence.

these exact questions have been asked a few times in the 2 threads about the problem, IBM does have the data...ask them....

pottymouth · #**207** 06-24-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stewie

One thing I'm surprised that hasn't been brought up is that in order to apply for draws you don't have to show proof that you hold a valid hunting license or at least taken Hunter Ed...

I have heard stories of where anti hunters are getting drawn for tags and rip them up... Or situations where a buddy talks about getting into hunting but isn't to sure yet... So why not start building his / her priority

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I'm glad to read you are also thinking along this line, and have proven that people skimmed past the several times I made this suggestion in this thread.

We really need to have the data from IBM showing the number of NR applicants, and the number of people applying that have never held a hunting licence.

Gentlemen

Post #1

Thought #1 (a)