The Future of Sheep in Alberta

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

LOL... with good reason!

LOL....As I've been told.

[honda450]

Ok she was a close round. No jabs below the belt in this round.

Waitin for the judges.....................

Ok the decisions are in 25 to 24. For sheepguide.

DING. DING. Round 24.

[Bigfeet]

I haven't had much time to look at the discussions on the forum - too much work! I now have a little more time and am quite interested by the sheep discussions I have found. I hunted, or rather stumbled around the mountains, two days last fall for sheep. No shots fired, no legal sheep seen. That is the extent of my sheep hunting, so I'm certainly not an expert. But, I enjoyed the heck out of it and may take it up more seriously in the future. I mention this simply to say I am not an expert on sheep, but thought I would toss out a few ideas.
From what I can tell, the debate is about having more mature rams for hunters and the health of sheep herd in general. There are a lot of ideas but one reoccuring theme seems to be about outfitters taking too high a percentage of the total harvest. If that is the case, maybe outfitters and their clients should be restricted to take only full curl rams and residents be left at 4/5 curl. This would reduce their harvest numbers, at least initially, but still give residents opportunities for a trophy. Then, perhaps, residents should be restricted in their harvest by allowing 4/5 curl for their first sheep, and larger from that point on. Sounds like a lot of sheep hunters do this already, get one under their belt and then search for a really big mature sheep after that. For the outfitters, my guess is most clients of these outfitters are out for a once in a lifetime trophy and experience, and holding out for a true monster would be OK with many of them (if the opportunity at finding one was legitimate). Would these ideas put more mature rams on the mountain?

[Bigfeet]

Looks like my post may have killed this thread! Thought I would post again to put this back at the top of the board (hope that is OK). Just wanted to hear what others thought of my ideas above.

Originally Posted by Bigfeet

Looks like my post may have killed this thread! Thought I would post again to put this back at the top of the board (hope that is OK). Just wanted to hear what others thought of my ideas above.

I'm guessing you'd find some resistance from the outfitters. They are already at a considerable disadvantage by sitting out what are quite likely the three best weeks of the season. I doubt that they actually kill many true full-curl sheep. It would likely cut their harvest 50-75% and with residents still killing 4/5 sheep, I can't really see it allowing many sheep to get older. Possibly but I still think that there are a lot of people out there willing to kill the first legal sheep they see and even if someone is required to pass on them, there will be someone in line to kill them. We have a lot of sheep hunters in the hills.

If we really do have a problem, which no one has yet proven, I think the only solution is to limit the number of hunters in the field = draw.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm guessing you'd find some resistance from the outfitters. They are already at a considerable disadvantage by sitting out what are quite likely the three best weeks of the season. I doubt that they actually kill many true full-curl sheep. It would likely cut their harvest 50-75% and with residents still killing 4/5 sheep, I can't really see it allowing many sheep to get older. Possibly but I still think that there are a lot of people out there willing to kill the first legal sheep they see and even if someone is required to pass on them, there will be someone in line to kill them. We have a lot of sheep hunters in the hills.

If we really do have a problem, which no one has yet proven, I think the only solution is to limit the number of hunters in the field = draw.

First, I agree that we need to see some real data indicating if there is actually a problem. Is there ?

Secondly, no question there will be resistance from the outfitters, but so what. I suspect they are the stakeholders that are pushing for the resolutions to limit resident sheep hunting opportunity in the first place, which is in their interest only. Any outfitter that cannot or will not limit their own harvest in their own area when there is a problem with sheep numbers has absolutely no respect for either the wildlife or people of Alberta.

Thirdly, if resident sheep hunters have the number of available tags reduced through the draw application process, then similar and proportional reductions to outfitters sheep allocations should occur and all non-residents should be subject to the same draw application process for those limited tags. Seeing as how the cost of a non-resident sheep hunt in Alberta has jumped from 20K to 40K in the last decade, a 50% cut to the allocations should not have any real impact on the outfitters bottom line. Non-resident sheep hunting opportunity/allocations need to be upfront and center of any proposed solution to limit the numbers of hunters in the field.

[walking buffalo]

From reading this forum, and researching other sources, I have not been able to access any detailed data to support the claim of the absence of Mature rams. I am not personally convinced there is a problem.

SRD definately has some VERY detailed information on OUR sheep population. Before any changes are made to the sheep hunting regulations, SRD should be forced to reveal the evidence supporting their position. My experience in trying to access detailed reports on hunter harvest, population status, etc., is that it will take an effort through the freedom of information act.

http://foip.alberta.ca/

Is there anyone here willing or able to provide relevant sheep info. to the readers of AO?

There is a lot of research on Alberta sheep that is the property of our Universities, funded by our Govt. This info is also difficult to access. Members with access to their libraries may have some access here.

I wouldn't be suprised if the number of mature rams that live part or full time outside of the parks have decreased in recent years. If SRD will confirm this with the data, then the next step is to confirm the cause of mortality. Predation by Grizzlies, Cougars and Wolves needs to be considered within the context of sheep management. I personally feel that non-human predation of sheep should be managed as a tool to restore sheep populations before further resrictions are put on people.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Is there anyone here willing or able to provide relevant sheep info. to the readers of AO?

I've requested it a couple times but nothing yet.

[Hagar]

Heres what I have and these numbers are from the 1989 sheep study and report

The harvest numbers are the average from the years 85-89

Resident trophy sheep 192

Resident non-trophy sheep 217

Non-resident trophy sheep 39

The projected harvest goals for the year 2000 where

Resident trophy sheep 248

Resident non-trophy sheep 476

Non-resident trophy sheep 41

Given these numbers and the harvest gain rate ,considering this is now 2009,and that we are at a harvest rate of less then 1/2 of the projected harvest,I would say YES there is a problum!

I also feel that any reduction in resident harvest must be meet by the outfitters.Further more any outfitter who does not volintarilly,and of his own acord,shows how little respect they have for not only the wildlife of Alberta ,but also the people of Alberta,who these beautifull animals belong to.

How we deal with will be our legacy to the future sheep hunters and admire'rs of Alberta.

[Hagar]

I was able to get this report through our local library.As for any other reports ,I have not yet found anything.

[Hagar]

Should have also added preseason population numbers

Preseason population 1989 5215

Preseason population goal 2000 6900

These numbers do not include the sheep that are in the parks.

[dinosaur hunter]

been sitting on the side line and I see some real concern so lets get the real numbers I have some and they are documented from the 1990 sheep management plan this might be contradictory to what has been said but here they are right form ASRD

1989 all the following are in the 1990 sheep management plan and refer to the 1989 season

sheep in Alberta (not including national parks)5215 outside the parks
2500 trophy hunters resident and non resident, residents killed 230 rams
291 resident non trophy hunters killed 90 non trophy sheep
21,000 days effort expended means hunts averaged 7.5 days that includes travel in and out
major concerns industrial and recreational disturbance, loss of habitat, die offs from contact with domestic livestock particularly domestic sheep,
forest encroachment due to fire suppression

management goal for year 2000
raise population to 6900 Achieved
resident harvest of 250 rams been within this number for 20 yrs.
40 non resident harvest
500 non trophy harvest by resident

highest licenses sold prior to 1989 3284 trophy licenses in 1984 (less than today)

difference in success rate between res and non resident was based on skill and effort
(means we need to spend more time on the mountain)

here are some notes I obtained from the 2009 Wild sheep meeting in Red Deer

Quoting AS RD

population 2009 is 6971 sheep which is above the target of 6900

as much as 70% habitat loss from forest encroachment in some WMU this due to wild fire suppression since 1950
2002 -3540 resident took 248 trophy sheep goal of (250)
2002 nonresidents took 42 rams with 58 hunters

average age of rams harvested 6.5 years (.5 is because they are born in spring killed in fall) in 4/5 zones
1998 full curl rule put in this increased age to 7.5yrs average in those zones but decreased harvest from 16 per yr to 4 per yr. in these zones ( no real old or huge rams have been harvested in these zones since full cull implemented (+10yrs) seem we lost a lot of opportunity here. for a gain of 1 year in age structure

we are all concerned about this we all want lots of game and good success and great trophy's
but the bottom line I read out of this is hunter numbers are not the culprit
we need to do some burning to get back habitat, control some access and and focus our attention on the solution rather and fighting over who deserves what
If we drive the successful hunters off the mountain then who will show these young guys the way. A guy that gets to hunt sheep every 5 years
let us put that in relation to whitetail "if you are 30 today and successfully hunted whitetail since you where 15 that means you would have that same field experience at thirty if the 5 yr rule was put as you did when you where 18

just my thoughts "lets drive them to manage the resource rather than the hunters because when we are managed out of the picture they won't have to manage anything"

[Hagar]

Dinosaur hunter, thanks for those numbers and your thoughts.I agree about the improvement of habitat and the management of sheep and not the hunters.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

been sitting on the side line and I see some real concern so lets get the real numbers I have some and they are documented from the 1990 sheep management plan this might be contradictory to what has been said but here they are right form ASRD

1989 all the following are in the 1990 sheep management plan and refer to the 1989 season

sheep in Alberta (not including national parks)5215 outside the parks
2500 trophy hunters resident and non resident, residents killed 230 rams
291 resident non trophy hunters killed 90 non trophy sheep
21,000 days effort expended means hunts averaged 7.5 days that includes travel in and out
major concerns industrial and recreational disturbance, loss of habitat, die offs from contact with domestic livestock particularly domestic sheep,
forest encroachment due to fire suppression

management goal for year 2000
raise population to 6900 Achieved
resident harvest of 250 rams been within this number for 20 yrs.
40 non resident harvest
500 non trophy harvest by resident

highest licenses sold prior to 1989 3284 trophy licenses in 1984 (less than today)

difference in success rate between res and non resident was based on skill and effort
(means we need to spend more time on the mountain)

here are some notes I obtained from the 2009 Wild sheep meeting in Red Deer

Quoting AS RD

population 2009 is 6971 sheep which is above the target of 6900

as much as 70% habitat loss from forest encroachment in some WMU this due to wild fire suppression since 1950
2002 -3540 resident took 248 trophy sheep goal of (250)
2002 nonresidents took 42 rams with 58 hunters

average age of rams harvested 6.5 years (.5 is because they are born in spring killed in fall) in 4/5 zones
1998 full curl rule put in this increased age to 7.5yrs average in those zones but decreased harvest from 16 per yr to 4 per yr. in these zones ( no real old or huge rams have been harvested in these zones since full cull implemented (+10yrs) seem we lost a lot of opportunity here. for a gain of 1 year in age structure

we are all concerned about this we all want lots of game and good success and great trophy's
but the bottom line I read out of this is hunter numbers are not the culprit
we need to do some burning to get back habitat, control some access and and focus our attention on the solution rather and fighting over who deserves what
If we drive the successful hunters off the mountain then who will show these young guys the way. A guy that gets to hunt sheep every 5 years
let us put that in relation to whitetail "if you are 30 today and successfully hunted whitetail since you where 15 that means you would have that same field experience at thirty if the 5 yr rule was put as you did when you where 18

just my thoughts "lets drive them to manage the resource rather than the hunters because when we are managed out of the picture they won't have to manage anything"

Thank you for some hard numbers. You wouldn't think that in a free society it should be so dam hard to get the numbers of sheep on a mountain or the number of short sheep shot in a year or to get a public employee to answer a phone call!!!
Rant aside, it seems we have met or exceeded the population goals each time while not meeting the kill goals. And still they want to cut us back. If they were so clueless setting the previous goals - how do we have any faith they know what they are doing this time? With more sheep then ever OUTSIDE the parks we need cut backs?
The full curl rule looks like a pretty effective way to kill the sport too.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

population 2009 is 6971 sheep which is above the target of 6900


average age of rams harvested 6.5 years (.5 is because they are born in spring killed in fall) in 4/5 zones

Thanks for the numbers. Kinda shows what we have been saying. Populations ok and maturity of rams killed low.

Shows we dont need to kill less animals or hunt less just try and kill older rams. If our goal is to reach a more mature group of huntable rams.

SG

[SLH]

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

been sitting on the side line and I see some real concern so lets get the real numbers I have some and they are documented from the 1990 sheep management plan this might be contradictory to what has been said but here they are right form ASRD

1989 all the following are in the 1990 sheep management plan and refer to the 1989 season

sheep in Alberta (not including national parks)5215 outside the parks
2500 trophy hunters resident and non resident, residents killed 230 rams
291 resident non trophy hunters killed 90 non trophy sheep
21,000 days effort expended means hunts averaged 7.5 days that includes travel in and out
major concerns industrial and recreational disturbance, loss of habitat, die offs from contact with domestic livestock particularly domestic sheep,
forest encroachment due to fire suppression

management goal for year 2000
raise population to 6900 Achieved
resident harvest of 250 rams been within this number for 20 yrs.
40 non resident harvest
500 non trophy harvest by resident

highest licenses sold prior to 1989 3284 trophy licenses in 1984 (less than today)

difference in success rate between res and non resident was based on skill and effort
(means we need to spend more time on the mountain)

here are some notes I obtained from the 2009 Wild sheep meeting in Red Deer

Quoting AS RD

population 2009 is 6971 sheep which is above the target of 6900

as much as 70% habitat loss from forest encroachment in some WMU this due to wild fire suppression since 1950
2002 -3540 resident took 248 trophy sheep goal of (250)
2002 nonresidents took 42 rams with 58 hunters

average age of rams harvested 6.5 years (.5 is because they are born in spring killed in fall) in 4/5 zones
1998 full curl rule put in this increased age to 7.5yrs average in those zones but decreased harvest from 16 per yr to 4 per yr. in these zones ( no real old or huge rams have been harvested in these zones since full cull implemented (+10yrs) seem we lost a lot of opportunity here. for a gain of 1 year in age structure

we are all concerned about this we all want lots of game and good success and great trophy's
but the bottom line I read out of this is hunter numbers are not the culprit
we need to do some burning to get back habitat, control some access and and focus our attention on the solution rather and fighting over who deserves what
If we drive the successful hunters off the mountain then who will show these young guys the way. A guy that gets to hunt sheep every 5 years
let us put that in relation to whitetail "if you are 30 today and successfully hunted whitetail since you where 15 that means you would have that same field experience at thirty if the 5 yr rule was put as you did when you where 18

just my thoughts "lets drive them to manage the resource rather than the hunters because when we are managed out of the picture they won't have to manage anything"

I'm not sure what to beleive now because the numbers you quote are not what is published and not what I've been told.

The total number of sheep would be a guess considering they haven't finished flying all winter ranges until later this winter and the total number of tags according to their own numbers where not 3450 it was 2200 and the number harvested was not anywhere near 248 it was 119. As well Non-Resident allocations have been at 85 for a while now not sure exactly about 2002 but then they had a whooping increase in the last couple years.

Who was giving out these numbers?

http://www.abll.ca/charts/Wildlife/Licenses_Sold

I totally agree with habitat issues that have to be addressed but we certainly do have to get a handle on what the "problem" truly is.

SLH, where did you get the numer of 119 sheep harvested and what year was that for?

The most recent info I can find is for 2007 and 143 rams were taken by residents and 45 by non-residents with a total number of 2,150 resident hunters and 85 non-resident hunters.

[nube]

I aggree. Not the numbers I have seen in the past either. Hard to believe that many sheep get shot every year as stated.
Habitat is really important.

I think part of the numbers given of sheep harvested must be ewes.

[SLH]

Same website go to the arrows above the chart to big game go to the menu to harvest estimates.

http://www.abll.ca/charts/Wildlife/Licenses_Sold

2002 119

numbers more recently are higher but something about these numbers is not right.

Originally Posted by SLH

Same website go to the arrows above the chart to big game go to the menu to harvest estimates.

http://www.abll.ca/charts/Wildlife/Licenses_Sold

2002 119

numbers more recently are higher but something about these numbers is not right.

Got it...thanks. Holy crap those harvest numbers fluctuate wildly from year to year. I'm not sure they could ever extrapolate a trend from that.

[trashheap]

I've only been hunting sheep for a couple of years and am addicted to it already. I live and hunt in the foothills and have been doing so for some time now. In my opinion we should first look at making sure we are managing the preditors properly, because it seems to me that they are getting out of hand. It is impossible to manage one end of the spectrum and not the other.

[Hagar]

The lack of harvested mature rams I believe could be helped with hunter effort and education.Inform hunters on the value of having younger rams and what a special trophy a mature ram is.

If the population numbers are so good and the harvest numbers so low,could this trend by caused by lack of true effort on the hunters part and the younger rams been taken because they are easier to find?

I also agree with more preditor control,is that something we could do more of ourselves,at lest in the areas that are accessable in the winter months.I try to get out for wolves when I can but a person can only get back so far this time of year.

I have to agree with you sheephunter.

If the population numbers are so good and the harvest numbers so low,could this trend by caused by lack of true effort on the hunters part and the younger rams been taken because they are easier to find?

The natural mortality of mature rams is high and no matter how many young rams we let live, the percentage of older rams to younger rams is always going to be very low. I had a biologist tell me one time that you can basically cut the numer of rams in half for every year they live past 7. So if there are 100 seven year old rams, only 50 make it to 8, 25 to 9, 12 to 10 and so on. I think the reason a lot of young rams are killed each year is just because there are a lot more of them. Statisically, your odds of killing a young ram are just that much higher.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

average age of rams harvested 6.5 years (.5 is because they are born in spring killed in fall) in 4/5 zones
1998 full curl rule put in this increased age to 7.5yrs average in those zones but decreased harvest from 16 per yr to 4 per yr. in these zones ( no real old or huge rams have been harvested in these zones since full cull implemented (+10yrs) seem we lost a lot of opportunity here. for a gain of 1 year in age structure

My intent is not to to diss your post......it is great to get the real numbers. I do however have a doubt as to the accuracy of the ages listed in the registry. The one case from this year is a very extreme example of how the numbers could be swayed very easily.

Maybe it was an "isolated" case, I do not know, but a couple just like it and those numbers change quite drastically.

tm

[Hagar]

I agree with the natural mortality of sheep and that there are more immature rams then mature rams.The point I was making was,and please understand I an not a very expirenced sheep hunter,that I seem to see more immature rams in country that is easier to get to and ,just guessing,are taken by less expirenced sheep hunters.It seems,as it does with many things,people are looking for the quick and easy sheep and that there are not as many real sheep hunters as there was.

tundra monkey this is an example of why I feel there should be a sheep hunters education course for all sheep hunters and the C.O.'s that check them.

Not sure if this will turn out, but its hunters graphed with harvest. Data from http://www.abll.ca/tables/Wildlife/Licenses_Sold Since 1970

Originally Posted by Hagar

I agree with the natural mortality of sheep and that there are more immature rams then mature rams.The point I was making was,and please understand I an not a very expirenced sheep hunter,that I seem to see more immature rams in country that is easier to get to and ,just guessing,are taken by less expirenced sheep hunters.It seems,as it does with many things,people are looking for the quick and easy sheep and that there are not as many real sheep hunters as there was.

tundra monkey this is an example of why I feel there should be a sheep hunters education course for all sheep hunters and the C.O.'s that check them.

You could be right Hagar but as rams tend to run in bands regardless of age, I'm not sure that there would be a trend for younger rams to be in easier areas to access than older rams. I think it just goes back to the fact that the pyramid is heavily weighted at the bottom with young rams and that's what hunters see most often. A couple years ago, we hit a super remote basin in K-Country and saw 63 rams together...there was one legal and he was 8 years at the oldest and likely 7. I honestly think that much of what we are seeeing can be attributed to the winters of 1996 and 1997. Each year I see more and more older rams. The one Vanessa killed in 2007 was 9 and the one I killed in 2008 was 8. The pyramid is finally getting some more rams at the top as numbers in general start to rebound. At least that's my thought. Truthfully, I think all this talk of not enough mature rams is much ado about nothing more than a few bad winters. My thought is that we should look at habitat and predators and stop trying to reduce hunter opportunity. The winters of '96 and '97 devestated our mature rams but a lot of people seem to forget that. It's just a natural cycle from what I can see from hunting basically the same sheep for 24 years.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Hagar

tundra monkey this is an example of why I feel there should be a sheep hunters education course for all sheep hunters and the C.O.'s that check them.

I agree 100%

I also don't think it is as isolated as I'd like to believe. When Coldredneck had his sheep done this year it was easy to tell that it was 8 or 9. There was another aged on the same day that was "way smaller and younger" according to the ENR officer that looked at both. The second ram was an ancient ram that was broomed off "hugely" (if that's a word). The ram was killed by Franklin Ross's father and he was definately on his way out....a true trophy in my eyes. If he's still on here maybe he'll post pics. We had a pretty good laugh at it when we talked back at the hotel about it.

On a funny side note.....we made an offhanded comment about them breaking off the bit in the horns when they drilled them before Franklin and his Dad went to have his done as we were in there earlier. Guess what happened No permanent damage done but that sure elicits a "response" when it happens right in front of you

tm

[Hagar]

Thanks for your observations sheephunter and will agree with that for the most part.What I have seen,in my limited expirence,is the further I get back the fewer hunters I see and the seem to get better.It could just be the areas I hunt.It also seems I see more large rams after the reason closes out with the younger rams and ewes.

I know the bigs ones are there,I just have to get back far enough to find them!!Seeing these big rams keep me from shooting the younger ones.

It sounds as though F&W is backing away from the 5-year wait. Apparently there is power in the internet. The last word I got is that there will be public consultation before there are any changes. Good job to all those that took the time to express their concerns to the powers that be.