Of, For, And By the People...?

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

Nice graphic. Reminds me of my mule training story. I take it you're the mule?

Think outside the box, grasshopper. See the forest.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by The Elkster

There is a guy in prison in Norway that would love to talk ideals with a few here.

My question is why is this guy even alive and able to talk?


And look who gets the blame..the gun owners of Norway.

Just another Gamiel Gharbi story.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Nice graphic. Reminds me of my mule training story. I take it you're the mule?

Think outside the box, grasshopper. See the forest.

I think we both are lol.

I do somewhat admire that you stick to your principles. Even if I disagree with everything you say

[The Elkster]

Actually if you read some of his beliefs it runs parallel to much of the right wing stuff that has been said here. Boils down to intolerance and idealism. Thats not to say everyone is going to come out shooting but it certainly shows where that line of thinking can and has gone in the past.

We've already heard about disallowing people from simply calling themselves married, and taking away certain peoples rights to vote, the stupidity of "other people" we don't agree with (elitism), etc etc.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Too true. I don't believe it's impossible, tho. If we got here, we can re-trace our steps.

I hate the way lefties always steer political issues to hom0-sexual "rights". I'm to the point where I'd willingly pay the 2% that live as homo-sexual, trans-sexual, sexual-sexual, whatever sexual, to just leave the province and go somewhere else. Maybe then we could focus on real issues. Sexual stuff can remain private between the participants; it's not anyone else's concern.

Starting to wonder about you Rocky... Because the bible says it's so?

Again, this thread is about rights - or loss thereof. Gays and lesbians are at least willing to stand up and fight for what they feel is their rights - and what odds if they want to get married and have the same benefits that straight married couples have. I say give it to them... Rocky, you and people that think like you about gay/lesbian marriage are probably still a majority - but slowly, you will become the minority.

Marriage is a religious thing, and there's too much GD religion driving politics in this country. I'm not religious at all, so that's actually trampling on my rights as a Canadian - is it not?

Interesting ideals coming out of this thread for sure...

[pikergolf]

I have been following this with some interest, in my opinion the biggest backlash against the gay is because they let their sexuality define them. I don't give a rip, I really don't. I don't run around crowing about my sexuality because it's nobodies business, and nobodies really interested. Gays are bound and determined to have their lifestyle legitimized by society and ram it down peoples throats. Most people just don't give a rip, and don't want to here about it. I can't believe how lonely your life must be if your primary concern is to get people to except your sexuality. Nobody cares, just don't rub our faces in it. Silver you said marriage is a religious thing, your right, so why would you want an institution that believes your lifestyle is sin, to bless it? Doesn't make sense other than the gay want to rub it into religions face, again life is to short for a stupid fight of trying to legitimize what the church won't. Go have your union service with the GP and get on with your lives.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I have been following this with some interest, in my opinion the biggest backlash against the gay is because they let their sexuality define them. I don't give a rip, I really don't. I don't run around crowing about my sexuality because it's nobodies business, and nobodies really interested. Gays are bound and determined to have their lifestyle legitimized by society and ram it down peoples throats. Most people just don't give a rip, and don't want to here about it. I can't believe how lonely your life must be if your primary concern is to get people to except your sexuality. Nobody cares, just don't rub our faces in it. Silver you said marriage is a religious thing, your right, so why would you want an institution that believes your lifestyle is sin, to bless it? Doesn't make sense other than the gay want to rub it into religions face, again life is to short for a stupid fight of trying to legitimize what the church won't. Go have your union service with the GP and get on with your lives.

I can appreciate your position. However you have to understand that when gay matters are left in the dark, a child can grow up with litterally no idea what's wrong with him. He could certainly find gay stuff on the internet but that's a crapshoot if he doesn't know what he's looking for.

That sort of confusion leads to maladjusted adults and the kinds of horrific things you hear about on the news like suicide and murder. The stats are higher in the gay community.

As for religion...well my cousin and his new wife got married by a gay priest a few weeks back. Funny old world we live in

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I have been following this with some interest, in my opinion the biggest backlash against the gay is because they let their sexuality define them. I don't give a rip, I really don't. I don't run around crowing about my sexuality because it's nobodies business, and nobodies really interested. Gays are bound and determined to have their lifestyle legitimized by society and ram it down peoples throats. Most people just don't give a rip, and don't want to here about it. I can't believe how lonely your life must be if your primary concern is to get people to except your sexuality. Nobody cares, just don't rub our faces in it.

How do you figure they let their sexuality define them? My sister is lesbian, she's not taking to the streets cramming it down everyone's throat? Are we talking about gay pride here? Does it offend you? Like I say, I couldn't give a fiddlers F about what they are doing. They want the right to marry, they want the right to the benefits of marriage under the law. And they are willing to FIGHT for their rights - unlike most canadians that take it and bitch about it.

I have respect for anyone that will stand up and fight for whatever is right - that's what this thread is about. And from many people, all i'm reading is the complain and moan that it can't be changed.

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Silver you said marriage is a religious thing, your right, so why would you want an institution that believes your lifestyle is sin, to bless it? Doesn't make sense other than the gay want to rub it into religions face, again life is to short for a stupid fight of trying to legitimize what the church won't. Go have your union service with the GP and get on with your lives.

First of all it's not my lifestyle. Secondly, I've already said i'm not religious so why would I care if any religion condones or disapproves alternate marriage?

It's about peoples rights, and people willing to stand up for them. That's all it is. It's funny how so many minorities are willing to stand up and fight for rights - but the majority sit and complain...

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

I think we both are lol.

I do somewhat admire that you stick to your principles. Even if I disagree with everything you say

Likewise. Discussing big issues with a mind that cannot generate more than sound bytes and labels gets frustrating and boring in a hurry.

I suggest to you that, at the end of our discussion, is a disagreement about the extent to which social norms, ideas of good and bad, what is worthwhile and what is not, the value of relationships, etc., should be set by decree of the few or developed slowly over time by the people. It is the difference between a judicial monarchy and democracy and it is nothing less than that. The issue is a lot bigger than homosexual marriage. Nonetheless, one must debate issues with the facts at hand...or at least use that as an entry point.

This is yet another example of the urge in some (liberal) people to be governed, to have the big decisions made by some outside Authority. It is the same mindset that built Stonehenge, so I do not underestimate the urge. I've been there; it's impressive. But in the final analysis, they are modern pagans who will not coexist with freedom.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

.... a child can grow up with litterally no idea what's wrong with him.

Weak. You could say the same about a psychopath. Nature makes mistakes. Lots of them. That is not sufficient reason for your conclusion.

[CPT_420]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Weak. You could say the same about a psychopath. Nature makes mistakes. Lots of them. That is not sufficient reason for your conclusion.

You just don't get it do you?

You cant discuss with these types of people folks...no point in trying.

My question is why the hell does he care so much about what other people do with their own lives that don't harm others? Is his own life that boring and bland? Is he insecure? Meh...in one ear and out the other for me

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Weak. You could say the same about a psychopath. Nature makes mistakes. Lots of them. That is not sufficient reason for your conclusion.

A psychopath is predisposed towards bad behaviour in the long run. Not watching Criminal Minds as a kid won't really change that.

A gay teen on the other hand could grow up to be a very productive member of society. He could be a fireman, a soldier, and even an adopted father (you may not think that's a good thing but atleast on the whole fatherhood is considered a positive thing in ones life).

However if that kid gets to puberty and finds he isn't feeling the "expected" feelings, well he honestly might not survive the school experience. Its hard enough for us straight folk.

Now he wouldn't have an easy time of it even if he had Will & Grace reruns to watch and a gay pride parade on TV but atleast then he knows he's not alone. So I have to believe it makes a positive difference.

[pikergolf]

How do you figure they let their sexuality define them? My sister is lesbian, she's not taking to the streets cramming it down everyone's throat? Are we talking about gay pride here? Does it offend you? Like I say, I couldn't give a fiddlers F about what they are doing. They want the right to marry, they want the right to the benefits of marriage under the law. And they are willing to FIGHT for their rights - unlike most Canadians that take it and bitch about it.

I have respect for anyone that will stand up and fight for whatever is right - that's what this thread is about. And from many people, all I'm reading is the complain and moan that it can't be changed.

I am under the understanding that the gay's do have full rights to the benefits of marriage, and as for the gay parade, from what I have seen there is lewd behavior so yes it does offend me, no more so if there was a parade of hetero sexual behaving in a lewd manor in a parade though.

First of all it's not my lifestyle. Secondly, I've already said I'm not religious so why would I care if any religion condones or disapproves alternate marriage?

But that is what this is all about getting everyone to condone their lifestyle, is it not. If they didn't care if people condoned it they wouldn't be running parades, not. I hope I don't come across as someone who hates them, and sometimes I have a tough time bringing my thoughts across. I just don't see where they are lacking anything that the rest of us have, I could very easily be corrected on that and if I need to be have at it.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I am under the understanding that the gay's do have full rights to the benefits of marriage, and as for the gay parade, from what I have seen there is lewd behavior so yes it does offend me, no more so if there was a parade of hetero sexual behaving in a lewd manor in a parade though.

Keep in mind they've only had the marriage right since 2005. And as recently as the 70s they were still being thrown in prison as sex offenders. Alot of the guys in those parades are probably old enough to remember that.

Its possible they'll get bored with their own parade after a while if they feel they've made their point. Might be another generation though.

[silverdoctor]

Some people can't get past their own beliefs and what they feel is right... I don't give a rats arse what your personal feeling are on the matter - nor to I care about how the church feels about it. It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.


Gays and lesbians wanted the same rights and benefits that a married or common law male/female couples have, they fought for it and got it.

That's what this thread is all about. If Canadians would stand up as a whole, we could get a lot changed in this country of ours. It always seems the minorities in this country are the ones that stand up for their rights - while the majority complain about their rights being taken away...

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Some people can't get past their own beliefs and what they feel is right......

Right back at you, buddy.

If Canadians would stand up as a whole, we could get a lot changed in this country of ours....

If a good percentage of conservatives would stand up, I'd be happy. And yeah, we could change a lot. Unfortunately, more pain seems to be required.

I believe this discussion shows why it is hard to motivate those people. The Powers That Be just do what they want with not a moment's concern about what the unwashed people might want or how to accommodate them. It's hard to believe you can implement change when you've been told over and over that you don't matter.

You're right about one practical thing - we conservatives could take a page from homosexual activists' playbook. And enviro-warriors. And feminist groups. And anti-gun groups. They have no philosophy that is worth adopting, IMO, but they do seem to have figured out some winning tactics.

[silverdoctor]

Lets talk about guns for a moment...

There are some that consider "non gun owners" anti's. Not all "non gun owners" are anti, and i'm one of them.

Do I own a gun? No, have no need to own a gun at the moment. I don't hunt and it's not a tool that I require at this moment.

Do I care that you own a gun? No.

Do I think you're going to go on a shooting spree because you own a gun? No.

Do I care that you have to lock them up securely? Not at all.

Do I care that you can only use a handgun at a range? No, couldn't care less.




What I do care about is the fact that gun owners and hunters in this country sat back and let their rights be taken away from them. You let it happen.

Gun owners are a minority in this country - and not all people that don't own guns are against you. Minorities have proven over and over that they can exact change - it may take a while...

Now, if gun owners would take a stand and try to get the laws in this country changed for the better? I'd be right behind you in support. But as it is, i'd look awefully stupid standing on a street corner with a sign demanding gun rights when I don't even own a gun...

Someone started a gun rant a few days ago - I spoke up and said to get off your ass and do something about it. Not one person responded.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Do I care that you can only use a handgun at a range? No, couldn't care less.

I have to admit I hate that rule. Not that I want to shoot someone or even carry a handgun in public really but it would sure be nice to take it into the forest for defense or some good old fashioned shooting cans off a fence.

If not for the restriction I'd probably have one. But a gun you can only use at the range is like a Mustang you can only drive at the dealership.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Someone started a gun rant a few days ago - I spoke up and said to get off your ass and do something about it. Not one person responded.

Before you get too far on that high horse, you can believe that a lot of us have done a lot for a long time. If you haven't, you have no right to lecture anyone. Have you?

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Before you get too far on that high horse

Be careful of the ice you're stepping on Rock - I have no horse to get on, I don't own a gun remember? It's that kind of attitude that turn people anti...

Originally Posted by Rocky7

you can believe that a lot of us have done a lot for a long time. If you haven't, you're on thin ice. Have you?

I'll bite, give us a list of what you've done and did they work?

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I'll bite, give us a list of what you've done and did they work?

Don't be childish. It wasn't me on the pulpit, it was you.

It's that kind of attitude that turn people anti...

Funny. I/we need petulant supporters like we need another hole in the head.

You don't do me any favours by supporting the God-given rights of gun owners nor am I beholden to you for doing so. Nor will I surrender any of my principles in order to curry your favour. I am not interested in fair weather friends. I am not interested in quid pro quo.

If you see the merit in freedom, in all it's splendour, you will support gun rights without me at your side. If you see that public safety is improved with relaxed gun laws, including CCW, you will support it without me at your side. If you see that violent crime rises as gun control increases, you will oppose it.

Or not.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

If not for the restriction I'd probably have one [handgun]. But a gun you can only use at the range is like a Mustang you can only drive at the dealership.

You have a point there. On the other hand, it might be worth something just to pi$$ off a liberal and buy one. That's where I'm leaning, anyway. Just for the pure spite of it.

[Classic_Cool]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

You have a point there. On the other hand, it might be worth something just to pi$$ off a liberal and buy one. That's where I'm leaning, anyway. Just for the pure spite of it.

It's tempting alright.

Funny thing is, next time there's a prolongued state of emergency in the country (and human history shows that it will happen eventually) the guys who campaign against gun ownership are going to find that their political might counts for absolutely squat compared to the guy with a baseball bat outside their door.

[silverdoctor]

You offered up a list Rocky, where is it?

And again, you belittle me for my views - how f'n arrogant are you? you need people like me more than you think. There are more people like me than you care to know.

Think out side the box for a moment shall we? I have no reason to get a PAL and buy a gun. I don't hunt, haven't got enough time to get out fishing cause i'm always on call - but that's my own issue.

Forget trying to change the gun laws for a moment, cause many are on the fence about it. Why have more guns in Canada cause there's really no other use for them other than hunting and range...


But how many people in Canada don't like the fact that we have no castle laws? How many people are against the ideal that we cannot protect ourselves with a gun in the case of an invasion? Change that law, and i'll be the first one signing up for a PAL and buying a gun - give me a reason to do so. Take a wild estimate at how many gun owners there would be in this country if we had Castle laws? Just one law change would change the dynamics of everything.

Now how fast can you get the laws changed with that many gun owners...?

I find it hard to believe that you are more than willing to berate the people in this country that believe in your rights and are willing to support your cause - but need a reason to do so.

[ctd]

"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth".
this exert from the Gettysburg Address is a speech by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln. |Note he is not a Canadian.

I am PROUD to Be Canadian. I am not an American and I do not live by the American Consitution.

My Goverment although not perfect as you seem you can make it, it is still the best in the World. As with any small group of people given charge to a large group, sefishness and abuse of power does happen. That is why we have elections. This is how we keep those in check.

If you want to live as a an American and think their system of rights is the way to go then move down there, become an American and reap the rewards.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by ctd

"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth".
this exert from the Gettysburg Address is a speech by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln. |Note he is not a Canadian.

I am PROUD to Be Canadian. I am not an American and I do not live by the American Consitution.

My Goverment although not perfect as you seem you can make it, it is still the best in the World. As with any small group of people given charge to a large group, sefishness and abuse of power does happen. That is why we have elections. This is how we keep those in check.

If you want to live as a an American and think their system of rights is the way to go then move down there, become an American and reap the rewards.

So, I have to ask: What part of that quote is it that you don't like? The God part? That is enshrined in the Cdn constitution. The freedom part? That gov't be formed OF the people? BY the people? FOR the people? Just curious which part you think Canada should depart from?? OR that we don't/shouldn't share with the USA.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by ctd

I am PROUD to Be Canadian. I am not an American and I do not live by the American Consitution.

Curious what part of the American Constitution you would disagree with or "not live by"?

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by ctd

I am PROUD to Be Canadian. I am not an American and I do not live by the American Consitution.

........

If you want to live as a an American and think their system of rights is the way to go then move down there, become an American and reap the rewards.

You may or may not be a proud Canadian; you are certainly uneducated.

Americans invented freedom. Think about that. Then try reading some books. Find out why the French invited Thomas Paine to come see them and help them put together this new French Republic after the King was dispatched. Read some Alexis de Tocqueville, maybe. If he impresses you - and he should - find out why he visited the new U.S.of A. Load your mind before you shoot off your mouth.

The U.S. has certainly stumbled here and there and made some mistakes, maybe tend to be a tad loud and myopic and they are in quagmire at the moment, but it is a FACT that the western world owes them a debt of gratitude and not some uninformed, snotty insults. We did not fight the British. We didn't have to. Their Constitution was inspired. Too bad they don't follow it.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Classic_Cool

It's tempting alright.

Funny thing is, next time there's a prolongued state of emergency in the country (and human history shows that it will happen eventually) the guys who campaign against gun ownership are going to find that their political might counts for absolutely squat compared to the guy with a baseball bat outside their door.

Mao was correct on the source of political might. He was a butcher, but he understood that much. As you say, so will the cerebral elitists when the wolf comes next.

Buy that handgun. I'm going to next time I have some 'mad money'. It might even be a .45. That way, I can buy a matching calibre rifle, too. For hunting purposes, you see. In case I have any close work in the bush. With the rifle.