Sheep hunters (the on foot kind) rifle choice

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

i was always suspect about that chuck hawkes website....take it up with him, i'm a quick googler, whole chart of recoil energies....was the first one that came up in my google for recoil energy chart....11.9 ft/lbs for the 260 in 8.25 lb rifle and 17.1 for the .270 in 8.0 lb rifle...both shooting 140's...

here ya go http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

oh, and next time can you quote from the right post?

sorry about the wrong post..but the velocity of the bullets are what ??? Coyote not tryin to argue ,but numbers u have are good I.m sure >> in all honesty "Chuck Hawkes " is a well spoken nothing >>>>

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are comparing a lighter bullet to a heavier bullet...of course the wind will move a lighter bullet more. Simple physics tells us that. Not sure what that has to do with time of flight or BC though. You'd need to compare bullets of identical weight. If you take two bullets of identical weight with an identical time of flight(not an identical muzzle velocity), wind drift would be identical regardless of the bullet's BC.

I say again...time of flight is everything and a high BC reduces time of flight.

You make it sound as if it is just all about time of flight that effects wind drift, at least that is how you are coming across to me.

Two bullets of different weights (.224 and .284 as an example, 50 grains and 180 grains) the .224 can have less time of flight to 500 yards, yet the .284 with a longer time of flight will have less wind drift, even though it has more time in the air to be pushed by the wind.

This is what I was trying to say... not so well obviously

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are comparing a lighter bullet to a heavier bullet...of course the wind will move a lighter bullet more. Simple physics tells us that. Not sure what that has to do with time of flight or BC though. You'd need to compare bullets of identical weight. If you take two bullets of identical weight with an identical time of flight(not an identical muzzle velocity), wind drift would be identical regardless of the bullet's BC.

I say again...time of flight is everything and a high BC reduces time of flight.

who can determine time of flight? never seen anyone look at it that way, bc is the time of flight equalizer....why not just use bc to look at it then as thats how everyone else does it....we can measure muzzle velocity, don't see any time of flight gizmos on market

so to Longdraws statement that i said was correct...it was correct


i just ran the 180 partition(30 cals) protected tip at 2600 against the 180 accubond at 2400 fps....wind drift almost 6" less with the accubond at 500 yrds even 200 fps slower...at same velocity the accubond has almost 10" less wind drift

he is correct even if bullet weight is the same and will just have to use the gold standard of velocity

i'm still not buying time of flight between a 180 grain 30 cal with bc of .361 and another with bc of .507.......how would you duplicate time of flight to compare? the bc is so lousy with the partition protected tip that time of flight to 800 yrds might require you to launch it 1000 fps faster than the accubond lol, weird, will just stick to velocity to compare things

LD, I'm still not sure you totally grasp it.

Take this scenario.

A 140 grain bullet with a BC of .35 and 140 grain bullet with a BC of .50. If their time of flight to the target is identical, so too will drop and wind drift be identical. Obviously the bullet with the .25 would require a higher muzzle velocity to reduce its time of flight to equal the higher BC bullet but if time of flight is the same, BC means absolutely nothing in regards to drop or wind drift.

The only variable that effects drop is time of flight.

Both time of flight and projectile weight affect wind drift.

All that BC can do is reduce the time of flight….nothing more.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

who can determine time of flight? never seen anyone look at it that way, bc is the time of flight equalizer....why not just use bc to look at it then as thats how everyone else does it....we can measure muzzle velocity, don't see any time of flight gizmos on market

A ballistic calculator....it's one of the standard calculatons. Time of flight is everything.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you take two bullets of identical weight with an identical time of flight(not an identical muzzle velocity), wind drift would be identical regardless of the bullet's BC.

I say again...time of flight is everything and a high BC reduces time of flight.

it is not

i just ran the numbers of two 180 grain nosler 30 cals, bc of .361 vs .507, at same time of flight readings the higher bc bullet has less wind drift

bc is everything

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LD, I'm still not sure you totally grasp it.

Take this scenario.

A 140 grain bullet with a BC of .35 and 140 grain bullet with a BC of .50. If their time of flight to the target is identical, so too will drop and wind drift be identical. Obviously the bullet with the .25 would require a higher muzzle velocity to reduce its time of flight to equal the higher BC bullet but if time of flight is the same, BC means absolutely nothing in regards to drop or wind drift.

The only variable that effects drop is time of flight.

Both time of flight and projectile weight affect wind drift.

All that BC can do is reduce the time of flight….nothing more.

I grasp it, all I was saying is with bullet weight, calibers, and Muzzle velocities being identical the one with the higher BC will have less drift at the same distance. Don't know how we got to here from that?

edit-
You can have a bullet that has less time of flight have more wind drift at the same distance than the heavier bigger bullet with the higher BC with a higher time of flight.

You said it is all about time of flight which it clearly is not.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Truthfully, after building a rifle on a custom action, I'd don't think I'd ever go the donor action route again.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here and what donors you have built on?

[double gun]

Easy there guys.... like I said, the caliber debate doesnt interest me.


Having never hunted sheep, I just wondered if a compact rifle is better suited for a sheep rifle, than a full size. It seems that is comes down to personal preference... one isnt clearly better than the other.

[elkhunter11]

Of course you are right but it does little to address my original question..

But my examples do support my reasoning for choosing the 260, a big part being the very high B.C. bullets that are available in .264".I knew that the 260rem would outdo the 270win as far as wind drift was concerned,if both cartridges were firing the 140gr Berger VLD,but I didn't realize that the .612 B.C. of the .264" 140gr Berger VLD, would more than make up for the extra 400fps produced by the 270WSM driving the .487 B.C. .277" 140gr Berger VLD,as far as wind drift is concerned.That is impressive,especially considering that it does so while producing only about 2/3 of the recoil.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by chuck

I'm curious as to your reasoning here and what donors you have built on?

OHHHH no not a calgarian Iggy fan ?? lol , with logic out the door

[Stinky Coyote]

sheep, i went one step further...

i pushed the velocity up of the .361 bc load to 200 fps to get the time of flight to match the exact yardage of the .507 bc load so we can't get any more equal....same time of flight, same range, same caliber, same bullet weight....only differences are the lower bc is 200 fps faster and bc


even still

the .361 bc load at 200 fps faster has tof of .710 to 525 yrds and 25.9" wind drift

the .507 bc load at 200 fps less has tof of .715 to 525 yrds and 19.2" wind drift

so bc really is everything

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

But my examples do support my reasoning for choosing the 260, a big part being the very high B.C. bullets that are available in .264".I knew that the 260rem would outdo the 270win as far as wind drift was concerned,if both cartridges were firing the 140gr Berger VLD,but I didn't realize that the .612 B.C. of the .264" 140gr Berger VLD, would more than make up for the extra 400fps produced by the 270WSM driving the .487 B.C. .277" 140gr Berger VLD,as far as wind drift is concerned.That is impressive,especially considering that it does so while producing only about 2/3 of the recoil.

yeah, bc is the ultimate horsepower equalizer, if time of flight was the ultimate factor the benchrest guys would be trying to drive little things at 5000 fps instead of high bc things at 2800-3000 fps

Originally Posted by LongDraw

I grasp it, all I was saying is with bullets, calibers, and Muzzle velocities being identical the one with the higher BC will have less drift at the same distance. Don't know how we got to here from that?

edit-
You can have a bullet that has less time of flight have more wind drift at the same distance than the heavier bigger bullet with the higher BC with a higher time of flight.

You said it is all about time of flight which it clearly is not.

Drop is all about time of flight and wind drift is all about time of flight and bullet weight. I've never said anything different. All the higher BC does is reduce time of flight........

Of course you can have a heavier bullet with a longer time of flight drift drift less than a lighter bullet...think I've said that a few times. That's why the 180 grain 7mm is so popular.

It is clearly all about time of flight with equal weight bullets and that's all I've said from the beginning...Come on LD......you putting words in my mouth!

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

yeah, bc is the ultimate horsepower equalizer, if time of flight was the ultimate factor the benchrest guys would be trying to drive little things at 5000 fps instead of high bc things at 2800-3000 fps

Your making no sense at all Stinky. Wind drift is everyting to do about time of flight and weight of projectile....drop is everything to do with time of flight. A .50 BC 165 bullet driven at 5,000 fps would have considerably less wind drift and drop than a .50 BC bullet driven at 3,000fps due to nothing else but time of flight. I think there's a few more reasons why the bench rest guys aren't flinging 165-180 grain bullets at 5,000 fps.

Put identical bullets into your calculator and then start changing nothing but TOF and tell me it's not critical. You'll be shocked.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You are comparing a lighter bullet to a heavier bullet...of course the wind will move a lighter bullet more. Simple physics tells us that.

bc tells us this.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You'd need to compare bullets of identical weight. If you take two bullets of identical weight with an identical time of flight(not an identical muzzle velocity), wind drift would be identical regardless of the bullet's BC.

This is not correct.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Your making no sense at all Stinky. Wind drift is everyting to do about time of flight and weight of projectile....drop is everything to do with time of flight. A .50 BC 165 bullet driven at 5,000 fps would have considerably less wind drift and drop than a .50 BC bullet driven at 3,000fps due to nothing else but time of flight. I think there's a few more reasons why the bench rest guys aren't flinging 165-180 grain bullets at 5,000 fps.

Put identical bullets into your calculator and then start changing nothing but TOF and tell me it's not critical. You'll be shocked.

chezz stinky ...get over it and get a 270wsm...

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

sheep, i went one step further...

i pushed the velocity up of the .361 bc load to 200 fps to get the time of flight to match the exact yardage of the .507 bc load so we can't get any more equal....same time of flight, same range, same caliber, same bullet weight....only differences are the lower bc is 200 fps faster and bc


even still

the .361 bc load at 200 fps faster has tof of .710 to 525 yrds and 25.9" wind drift

the .507 bc load at 200 fps less has tof of .715 to 525 yrds and 19.2" wind drift

so bc really is everything

I'm guessing your bullet weights are different......bullet weight plays a considerable role in wind drift as does TOF. Make your bullet weights the same and your TOF the same and then tell me how much difference BC makes. I'm guessing none!

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

This is not correct.

How is not correct? It is in my program.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm guessing your bullet weights are different......bullet weight plays a considerable role in wind drift as does TOF. Make your bullet weights the same and your TOF the same and then tell me how much difference BC makes. I'm guessing none!

bullet weights are same 180 grains, tof same, i even upped the velocity of the lower bc bullet to ensure that the range was the same, and still....the higher bc bullet had 6" less wind drift...

everything same, 180 gr nosler partition protected tip .361 bc vs 180 gr nosler accubond .507 bc, same .710 vs .715 flight time, same 525 yrds, same everything you stated except different bc, and in order to even equalize the tof with distance as i figured that was your next argument....i had to give the lower bc an extra 200 fps initial velocity......so bc makes a HUGE difference

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

How is not correct? It is in my program.

oh this is hilarious...two different programs telling two different stories

i'm just giving you the data from mine lol

mine has been accurate as heck for me in all my drop and wind has certainly been close enough

so, according to my fast finners....your plumb wrong ha ha

will have to resort to higher powers to get the final answer then....until then....your still wrong imo lol

emoticons not working for me right now so trust i would have used the appropriate ones here, smiley wink wink etc.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

oh this is hilarious...two different programs telling two different stories

i'm just giving you the data from mine lol

mine has been accurate as heck for me in all my drop and wind has certainly been close enough

so, according to my fast finners....your plumb wrong ha ha

will have to resort to higher powers to get the final answer then....until then....your still wrong imo lol

emoticons not working for me right now so trust i would have used the appropriate ones here, smiley wink wink etc.

LOL....what does your program say for bullet drop when comparing the two?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Pines

chezz stinky ...get over it and get a 270wsm...

would you figure the posting/quoting thing already...if you know what i shoot then 'good one'....again, emoticons not working for me so trust i would have used the right one here, ha

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

would you figure the posting/quoting thing already...if you know what i shoot then 'good one'....again, emoticons not working for me so trust i would have used the right one here, ha

I will and have been Stinky ..right about now u need the "chucky "

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL....what does your program say for bullet drop when comparing the two?

altitude 5000', temp 30f, zero 250 yrd

the 2800 fps .361 bc has drop at 48.7" at the 525 yrd mark where tof matches the 2600 fps .507 bc with same zero and the drop of the .507 is 49.7"

1" difference of drop, 200 fps difference of muzzle velocity, same tof, same yardage, same 180 gr weight, same bullet diam.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

altitude 5000', temp 30f, zero 250 yrd

the 2800 fps .361 bc has drop at 48.7" at the 525 yrd mark where tof matches the 2600 fps .507 bc with same zero and the drop of the .507 is 49.7"

1" difference of drop, 200 fps difference of muzzle velocity, same tof, same yardage, same 180 gr weight, same bullet diam.

So you can see the problem with that right? (that's a wink btw...followed by a grin...lol)

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

How is not correct? It is in my program.

are you using a zeiss resource by chance?

arrgh....could have used a good emoticon at the end of that question hardy har har

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

are you using a zeiss resource by chance?

arrgh....could have used a good emoticon at the end of that question hardy har har

LMAO....nope.....here's a couple more you can't see......

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So you can see the problem with that right? (that's a wink btw...followed by a grin...lol)

well, just came in from outside so head still a bit cold, regardless its clear we look through different colored glasses.....so give me 'your' view, i haven't tried to think how you'd look at it yet

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

well, just came in from outside so head still a bit cold, regardless its clear we look through different colored glasses.....so give me 'your' view, i haven't tried to think how you'd look at it yet

Rose coloured today...spent two long days in the cold on the weekend...darned elk! Good thing was that the wind wasn't blowing but we were packing the 270WSM (wink...wink)