Whats best a bullet that passes through or one that reaches the backside of the hide ???

[209x50]

Originally Posted by muledeerking

So rich what is your fav bullet? The 130 bergers that killed your praire elk looked like theu worked great? was tht one shot? Also was it a pass through?

As for Barnes bullets. I am glad so many people like them as I have a way easier time finding my berger bullets. BIG HOLES ARE BETTER THAN PIN HOLES. Lol.

I'd be lying if I said I had one favorite. I love the mono metals like the GMX in my 338. I shoot highly accurate long range bullets like the Berger and A-Max in my sheep rifles. My 7 wizzum loves the bonded Interbond.
Yes that elk died from one 130 grain Berger from my 260 AI. No pass through that is for sure.

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

this bull and buck were both shot with a barnes 140gr vortex factory load , the moose at 70yrds and the buck at a lil over 150 yrds and both bullets did not pass through, both were on far side hide

Cool...any pics of the bullets...you don't get to see them often.

Have you experienced lots of pass throughs as well?

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I'd be lying if I said I had one favorite. I love the mono metals like the GMX in my 338. I shoot highly accurate long range bullets like the Berger and A-Max in my sheep rifles. My 7 wizzum loves the bonded Interbond.
Yes that elk died from one 130 grain Berger from my 260 AI. No pass through that is for sure.

Thanks for a reply that was honest. I like more than just bergers just not any mono bullets. I have seen a few that failed. Just like ballistic tips. So not a fan of either.

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

cool...any pics of the bullets...you don't get to see them often.

Have you experienced lots of pass throughs as well?

yes i do have the bullets from both i will post pics tomorrow if ya would like... And yes i have had pass throughs as well, not as many tho as non pass throughs

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

yes i do have the bullets from both i will post pics tomorrow if ya would like... And yes i have had pass throughs as well, not as many tho as non pass throughs

Cool love to see them.

That's weird about pass throughs....I've recovered about a half dozen (maybe less) out of 50 plus animals. I've love the mono metals for that reason.

[Speckle55]

Btw .... i hope you all are of the same understanding, i am that H shock happens on both a pass through and a non pass through!!!

so while it will die from blood loss it sometimes dies from brain hemorraging

Food for Thought
David

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by speckle55

btw .... I hope you all are of the same understanding, i am that h shock happens on both a pass through and a non pass through!!!

So while it will die

food for thought
david

a thought that goes with out mention, but thank you for the post sir,
BUT GREATER H SHOCK ON A NON PASS THROUGH IS KINDA WHAT THE OP BELIEVES AND IS LOOKING FOR OTHERS OPINIONS ON THAT THEORY AS WELL, PASS THROUGH VS NON-PASS THROUGH

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

so while it will die from blood loss it sometimes dies from brain hemorraging

I can honestly say that is a new one to me. I've killed hundreds of critters and have never seen blood hemorrhage in the brain.

[skidderman]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The absolute optimum bullet performance would be a bullet that makes a large wound channel , and then has just enough energy to exit.

I agree on this. Although not exiting is OK an animal like an elk can go a long way. Two holes to bleed out is better than one if for no other reason, tracking purposes.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I can honestly say that is a new one to me. I've killed hundreds of critters and have never seen blood hemorrhage in the brain.

bleeding from the brain???...really???... so...if I shoot an animal in the ass with a 416 Rigby, he's going down , due to brain bleeding?... WOW!!!,,...who knew???? While I never agree with one guy here, and have a cordial (?) relationship with the other, some of you fellas might do well to listen to their expertise, sometimes they come across as cranky, know it alls, but they have been there and done it....

Originally Posted by hal53

bleeding from the brain???...really???... so...if I shoot an animal in the ass with a 416 Rigby, he's going down , due to brain bleeding?... WOW!!!,,...who knew???? While I never agree with one guy here, and have a cordial (?) relationship with the other, some of you fellas might do well to listen to their expertise, sometimes they come across as cranky, know it alls, but they have been there and done it....

Not sure if I'm one of the know it all/cranky guys or not...lol....but I've certainly never professed to know it all or even know much but if I'm talking about a subject it's likely because I do know what I'm talking about. If I'm not, it's likely because I'm listening and trying to learn. It's a valuable skill that some seem not to have mastered

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not sure if I'm one of the know it all/cranky guys or not...lol....but I've certainly never professed to know it all or even know much but if I'm talking about a subject it's likely because I do know what I'm talking about. If I'm not, it's likely because I'm listening and trying to learn. It's a valuable skill that some seem not to have mastered

Ya you are the one he never agrees with. Wonder who the other old crank is?

[redranger15]

My brain is hemorraging after reading all this. I like two holes.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not sure if I'm one of the know it all/cranky guys or not...lol....but I've certainly never professed to know it all or even know much but if I'm talking about a subject it's likely because I do know what I'm talking about. If I'm not, it's likely because I'm listening and trying to learn. It's a valuable skill that some seem not to have mastered

just trying to make a point to some of the lads on here to remember why God gave them 2 ears and only 1 mouth.....sometimes you can learn a lot by sitting back and listening.....to people who have actually been there and done it....that's all I meant....

[hal53]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Ya you are the one he never agrees with. Wonder who the other old crank is?

hahahaha!...me....... is that better???....

Originally Posted by hal53

just trying to make a point to some of the lads on here to remember why God gave them 2 ears and only 1 mouth.....sometimes you can learn a lot by sitting back and listening.....to people who have actually been there and done it....that's all I meant....

No offence taken Hal....knew exactly where you were going...it's all good!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by hal53

hahahaha!...me....... is that better???....

Hey you gave me a good laugh at the end of a long day!

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by redranger15

My brain is hemorraging after reading all this. I like two holes.

lol.. me too but there is this study

Food for Thought;
David


Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.


In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet.

More

Ammunition selection for hunting

Hydrostatic shock is commonly considered as a factor in the selection of hunting ammunition. Peter Capstick explains that hydrostatic shock may have value for animals up to the size of white-tailed deer, but the ratio of energy transfer to animal weight is an important consideration for larger animals. If the animal’s weight exceeds the bullet’s energy transfer, penetration in an undeviating line to a vital organ is a much more important consideration than energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.[79] Jim Carmichael, in contrast, describes evidence that hydrostatic shock can affect animals as large as Cape Buffalo in the results of a carefully controlled study carried out by veterinarians in a buffalo culling operation.


Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals. Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage.

— Jim Carmichael[80]

Dr. Randall Gilbert describes hydrostatic shock as an important factor in bullet performance on whitetail deer, “When it [a bullet] enters a whitetail’s body, huge accompanying shock waves send vast amounts of energy through nearby organs, sending them into arrest or shut down.”[81] Dave Ehrig expresses the view that hydrostatic shock depends on impact velocities above 1,100 ft (340 m) per second.[82] Sid Evans explains the performance of the Nosler Partition bullet and Federal Cartridge Company’s decision to load this bullet in terms of the large tissue cavitation and hydrostatic shock produced from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet.[83] The North American Hunting Club suggests big game cartridges that create enough hydrostatic shock to quickly bring animals down.[84]

[edit] See also

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by hal53

just trying to make a point to some of the lads on here to remember why God gave them 2 ears and only 1 mouth.....sometimes you can learn a lot by sitting back and listening.....to people who have actually been there and done it....that's all I meant....

x2

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

lol.. me too but there is this study

Food for Thought;
David


Human autopsy results have demonstrated brain hemorrhaging from fatal hits to the chest, including cases with handgun bullets.[4] Thirty-three cases of fatal penetrating chest wounds by a single bullet were selected from a much larger set by excluding all other traumatic factors, including past history.


In such meticulously selected cases brain tissue was examined histologically; samples were taken from brain hemispheres, basal ganglia, the pons, the oblongate and from the cerebellum. Cufflike pattern haemorrhages around small brain vessels were found in all specimens. These haemorrhages are caused by sudden changes of the intravascular blood pressure as a result of a compression of intrathoracic great vessels by a shock wave caused by a penetrating bullet.

More

Ammunition selection for hunting

Hydrostatic shock is commonly considered as a factor in the selection of hunting ammunition. Peter Capstick explains that hydrostatic shock may have value for animals up to the size of white-tailed deer, but the ratio of energy transfer to animal weight is an important consideration for larger animals. If the animal’s weight exceeds the bullet’s energy transfer, penetration in an undeviating line to a vital organ is a much more important consideration than energy transfer and hydrostatic shock.[79] Jim Carmichael, in contrast, describes evidence that hydrostatic shock can affect animals as large as Cape Buffalo in the results of a carefully controlled study carried out by veterinarians in a buffalo culling operation.


Whereas virtually all of our opinions about knockdown power are based on isolated examples, the data gathered during the culling operation was taken from a number of animals. Even more important, the animals were then examined and dissected in a scientific manner by professionals. Predictably, some of the buffalo dropped where they were shot and some didn't, even though all received near-identical hits in the vital heart-lung area. When the brains of all the buffalo were removed, the researchers discovered that those that had been knocked down instantly had suffered massive rupturing of blood vessels in the brain. The brains of animals that hadn't fallen instantly showed no such damage.

— Jim Carmichael[80]

Dr. Randall Gilbert describes hydrostatic shock as an important factor in bullet performance on whitetail deer, “When it [a bullet] enters a whitetail’s body, huge accompanying shock waves send vast amounts of energy through nearby organs, sending them into arrest or shut down.”[81] Dave Ehrig expresses the view that hydrostatic shock depends on impact velocities above 1,100 ft (340 m) per second.[82] Sid Evans explains the performance of the Nosler Partition bullet and Federal Cartridge Company’s decision to load this bullet in terms of the large tissue cavitation and hydrostatic shock produced from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet.[83] The North American Hunting Club suggests big game cartridges that create enough hydrostatic shock to quickly bring animals down.[84]

[edit] See also

could not agree more with this post, Barnes TTSX or TSX does a better job at producing hydrostatic shock from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet than a Nosler Partition, IMO or any other hunting bullet for that matter, not to mention the awesome weight retention it also has.

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

could not agree more with this post, Barnes TTSX or TSX does a better job at producing hydrostatic shock from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet than a Nosler Partition, IMO or any other hunting bullet for that matter, not to mention the awesome weight retention it also has.

If frontal area is important to you, you should likely take a look at the GMX. The six petal design provides more frontal area than a four petal design like the TSX or TTSX. Actually I'd say the TSX and TTSX really aren't that great in the frontal area depatrtment when compared to bonded bullets or even the Partition. The voids between the petals really reduce the true frontal area. If you look on the bullets you recovered it's pretty apparent.

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If frontal area is important to you, you should likely take a look at the GMX. The six pedal design provides more frontal area than a four pedal design like the TSX or TTSX.

ooohhh, the gmx, 6 petals , now we are talkin brother man , i shall do that and hope it shoots well out of my 270 wsm, cant see why it wouldn't , just sayin, thanxx for the tid-bit sir cheers hornady here i come

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

ooohhh, the gmx, 6 petals , now we are talkin brother man , i shall do that and hope it shoots well out of my 270 wsm, cant see why it wouldn't , just sayin, thanxx for the tid-bit sir cheers

i cant find the gmx on the barnes web site...

That's because it's not a Barnes bullet.

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That's because it's not a Barnes bullet.

ya i just figured that one out...lmao,

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That's because it's not a Barnes bullet.

dont seem like 6 petals vs 4 petals makes a larger frontal diameter, in fact seems based upon the quotes from the manufactures themselves, that barnes tsx is 2x larger than the original diameter as where the gmx claims 1.5 x times larger than original diameter.

Barnes quote: Barnes TSX, TTSX, and LRX share the same all-copper design resulting in virtually 100% weight retention. Four razor-sharp cutting petals expand to double the bullet’s original diameter to create a very long and wide wound channel

hornady quote:"Hornady engineers designed the GMX bullet to perform across a very wide range of velocities, from +3,400 to 2,000 fps, and perform it does. GMX bullets are designed to expand to 1.5 times their original diameter and retain over 95% of their original weight.

what do you think...?

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

dont seem like 6 petals vs 4 petals makes a larger frontal diameter, in fact seems based upon the quotes from the manufactures themselves, that barnes tsx is 2x larger than the original diameter as where the gmx claims 1.5 x times larger than original diameter.

Barnes quote: Barnes TSX, TTSX, and LRX share the same all-copper design resulting in virtually 100% weight retention. Four razor-sharp cutting petals expand to double the bullet’s original diameter to create a very long and wide wound channel

hornady quote:"Hornady engineers designed the GMX bullet to perform across a very wide range of velocities, from +3,400 to 2,000 fps, and perform it does. GMX bullets are designed to expand to 1.5 times their original diameter and retain over 95% of their original weight.

what do you think...?

First off, frontal area and expanded diameter are two very different things. The TSX expands well but with voids between the expanded petals you lose frontal area. The GMX better mimics a bonded bullet's frontal area with no voids.

Secondly, I think Hornady is a little more honest in their advertising. I haven't recovered many GMX bullets but the few I have are all 2x expanded with virtually 100% weight retention....pretty well identical to the handful of TSX I've recovered.

Here you go...don't get too hung up on overall diameter as these are all different calibre bullets but it gives va good picture of frontal area.

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

First off, frontal area and expanded diameter are two very different things. The TSX expands well but with voids between the expanded petals you lose frontal area. The GMX better mimics a bonded bullet's frontal area with no voids.

Secondly, I think Hornady is a little more honest in their advertising. I haven't recovered many GMX bullets but the few I have are all 2x expanded with virtually 100% weight retention....pretty well identical to the handful of TSX I've recovered.

Here you go...don't get too hung up on overall diameter as these are all different calibre bullets but it gives va good picture of frontal area.

so what are the bullets you show here... listed from left to right plz....?

Originally Posted by PistonBroke

so what are the bullets you show here... listed from left to right plz....?

Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Trophy Bonded Tip, GMX, TSX

The GMX is the smallest calibre at .277....the TSX the largest at .338. Both are very close to 2x expansion as are the two bonded bullets. I believe the bonded bullets are both 30 cal.

[PistonBroke]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Trophy Bonded Tip, GMX, TSX

The GMX is the smallest calibre at .277....the TSX the largest at .338. Both are very close to 2x expansion as are the two bonded bullets. I believe the bonded bullets are both 30 cal.

i see what you mean by the 'non-voids" in the gmx, looks great , im liking that

[PistonBroke]

here is the two Barnes tsx 140gr out of my .270 wsm, the one on the left is from the bull moose pictured on my avatar, it was shot at 70 yards and i found it on the far side hide, passed through both lungs, and the bullet on the right is the same load and bullet shot at a 5/8 steel plate at 100 yrds, kinda a neat comparison i think. i cant find my bullet from my 150 yard whitetail from last year, sorry but it looks very close to the moose bullet.