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  #91  
Old 05-13-2018, 02:21 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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The use and promotion of the 6.5 CM at 600 yds on Elk is ridiculous and most anyone with any savvy at all will guarantee that you will not hear much about just how grossly inept that cartridge it is in that application. YouTube notwithstanding. Van Zwoll ?? He's a Professional Promoter. What did you expect to see ?
Lol.... ok.

You do realize that the 6.5 Creedmoor will out perform the 308 at 600yds right?

Maybe read up on some ballistic charts and cross reference with Hornady bullet performance specs for maximum and minimum velocity and kenetic energy specs. The biggest limiting factor of shooting an elk at 600yds is the marksman, not the rifle. It doesn't matter if you're shooting ab6.5 Creedmoor or a 300 magnum, both will have the energy and speed to kill at that range provided you hit where you aim.
  #92  
Old 05-13-2018, 02:37 PM
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Lol.... ok.

You do realize that the 6.5 Creedmoor will out perform the 308 at 600yds right?

Maybe read up on some ballistic charts and cross reference with Hornady bullet performance specs for maximum and minimum velocity and kenetic energy specs. The biggest limiting factor of shooting an elk at 600yds is the marksman, not the rifle. It doesn't matter if you're shooting ab6.5 Creedmoor or a 300 magnum, both will have the energy and speed to kill at that range provided you hit where you aim.
There’s one thing that is never mentioned when light weight bullets get used at distance.

Which is momentum.

There’s a reason that sub 120 grain bullets often wobble but seldom knock over shilouette rams.

The same can be said on game as well. But it’s not as definitive.

James Pondro Taylor was onto something with his TKO calculation, beit he was discussing non expanding bullets, and dangerous game animals, so frontal area and mass ruled the day, but it still is a calculation worth running.

Having taken the odd longish poke on game I can say I want decent mass and as much impact velocity I can muster.
The .308, and the 6.5’s(medium action) aren’t what I’d intentionally take to shoot an elk on the north side of 450 that’s for sure.
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Old 05-13-2018, 02:38 PM
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Lol.... ok.

You do realize that the 6.5 Creedmoor will out perform the 308 at 600yds right?

Maybe read up on some ballistic charts and cross reference with Hornady bullet performance specs for maximum and minimum velocity and kenetic energy specs. The biggest limiting factor of shooting an elk at 600yds is the marksman, not the rifle. It doesn't matter if you're shooting ab6.5 Creedmoor or a 300 magnum, both will have the energy and speed to kill at that range provided you hit where you aim.
Your right Kurt. Beyond 500 yards the 6.5 creedmore using long range extreme low drag bullets will finally surpass 308 win energy. But only after 500 yards. From muzzle to 500 yards, 308 has better energy. And if it only begins to shine beyond 500 yards, we have to ask this question. Would most people consider 308 win to be strong enough at 500 yards to effectively take elk? I would say that is asking a bit much. So no, the 6.5 creedmore isnt a great long distance elk cartridge. Its a low recoil expensive cartridge that takes advantage of the latest most expensive technology to perform far away. Up close for 99.9% of all hunting, the other common cartridges are just as good, and some better. If you want to hunt at 500m or more, 7mmRM and 300WM are both very popular and for good reason.
  #94  
Old 05-13-2018, 03:08 PM
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Out to 600 yards a 308 and a 6.5 cm are almost identical with an SST bullet of similar weight according to my ballistic calculators. 1000ftlbs And 1800ish fps. Which is the slowest speed recommended by most hunting bullets. Thats on the slim side of suitable for an elk. Everytime i see arguments on here about ballistics its always a high bc bullet lower weight vs a low bc heavier bullet. 7mm vs 300win, 308 vs 6.5cm. The 308 has better ballistics than a 6.5 creedmoor if you compare two bullets of the same weight. If you compare a lighter bullet from a creedmoor to a heavier bullet from a 308 obviously the lighter bullet will have less drop. Whomever posted the creedmoor has better ballistics at 600 yards are using a different calculator than i am. Ive checked 2-3 different ones. I dont shoot 308 or a 6.5cm. These pics are a 6.5cm 140gr sst vs 308 150gr sst. As close as can get to same weight.


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  #95  
Old 05-13-2018, 03:13 PM
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Lol.... ok.

You do realize that the 6.5 Creedmoor will out perform the 308 at 600yds right?

Maybe read up on some ballistic charts and cross reference with Hornady bullet performance specs for maximum and minimum velocity and kenetic energy specs. The biggest limiting factor of shooting an elk at 600yds is the marksman, not the rifle. It doesn't matter if you're shooting ab6.5 Creedmoor or a 300 magnum, both will have the energy and speed to kill at that range provided you hit where you aim.
We have all read the charts. What the 6.5 CM will do in that dept., so will the .260 and the 6.5x55 - even a bit better, so what's so special about the CM ? Certainly not accuracy. There are not too many that would suggest the .308 Win is a viable 600 yd Elk ctdge either for that matter... just the dreamers. By the sound of this, you prefer your 6.5 CM to your .280 for those long pokes at the larger stuff. That makes sense. .. or does it ?
Marksmanship is definitely important, and a lot of hunters are quite capable of putting bullets in the right place with their cartridge and rifle of choice, not just a select few -plus they are aware of their personal limitations and those of their equipment as well. If you keep your CM within the limits of it's capability you have a fine cartridge. Trying to make it in to something it's not is asking for disappointment, regardless of what the charts and some YouTubers say... and I think you know that .
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  #96  
Old 05-13-2018, 04:12 PM
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Out to 600 yards a 308 and a 6.5 cm are almost identical with an SST bullet of similar weight according to my ballistic calculators. 1000ftlbs And 1800ish fps. Which is the slowest speed recommended by most hunting bullets. Thats on the slim side of suitable for an elk. Everytime i see arguments on here about ballistics its always a high bc bullet lower weight vs a low bc heavier bullet. 7mm vs 300win, 308 vs 6.5cm. The 308 has better ballistics than a 6.5 creedmoor if you compare two bullets of the same weight. If you compare a lighter bullet from a creedmoor to a heavier bullet from a 308 obviously the lighter bullet will have less drop. Whomever posted the creedmoor has better ballistics at 600 yards are using a different calculator than i am. Ive checked 2-3 different ones. I dont shoot 308 or a 6.5cm. These pics are a 6.5cm 140gr sst vs 308 150gr sst. As close as can get to same weight.



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If you run the Ballistics for the 143 ELDX at 2700 fps, which is claimed by Hornady with their factory round, you will find that it has 1155 ft. lbs. energy at 600 yards. That is about 100 ft. lbs. more than either SST bullet in your calculations. It is actually about 2 ft. lbs. less than the 145 Speer BT, at 2900 fps. from a 7mm08. In this instance the 6.5 CM and the 7mm-08 are ballistically superior to a 308 with the 150 SST bullet and are ballistic twins. They do both have less recoil andI used the 7mm08, with the 145 Speer for years, and had no problems taking moose to 600 yards. I would likely take the 6.5 CM over the 7mm/08 as it would have the least amount of recoil and I can buy factory ammo for it.
  #97  
Old 05-13-2018, 04:25 PM
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All this thread has done for me is make me want one even more.
  #98  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:05 PM
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All this thread has done for me is make me want one even more.
Great , I think I know where there is one ..
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  #99  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:08 PM
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All this thread has done for me is make me want one even more.

I decided on a vanguard series 2 all weather model can't wait to get it!
  #100  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:08 PM
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Great , I think I know where there is one ..
Bergara by chance?

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  #101  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:12 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
If you run the Ballistics for the 143 ELDX at 2700 fps, which is claimed by Hornady with their factory round, you will find that it has 1155 ft. lbs. energy at 600 yards. That is about 100 ft. lbs. more than either SST bullet in your calculations. It is actually about 2 ft. lbs. less than the 145 Speer BT, at 2900 fps. from a 7mm08. In this instance the 6.5 CM and the 7mm-08 are ballistically superior to a 308 with the 150 SST bullet and are ballistic twins. They do both have less recoil andI used the 7mm08, with the 145 Speer for years, and had no problems taking moose to 600 yards. I would likely take the 6.5 CM over the 7mm/08 as it would have the least amount of recoil and I can buy factory ammo for it.


I've got 400 143gr ELD-X so I hope my rifle likes them!
  #102  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:20 PM
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I just want to shoot a deer in novemember. I am by no means looking to use this competitively........
My main reason too, for hunting purposes only.
It’ll be a tough decision for which to take, 6.5 CM or Swede.
Either way I have 100% confidence squeezing the trigger on a deer this fall...Or an elk
  #103  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:21 PM
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Bergara by chance?

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T-3
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  #104  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:26 PM
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T-3
Nice!
If my T3x in 6.5 Swede shoots freaking good’n accurate the 6.5 Creed oughta too!
  #105  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:41 PM
Buckhorn2 Buckhorn2 is offline
 
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If you run the Ballistics for the 143 ELDX at 2700 fps, which is claimed by Hornady with their factory round, you will find that it has 1155 ft. lbs. energy at 600 yards. That is about 100 ft. lbs. more than either SST bullet in your calculations. It is actually about 2 ft. lbs. less than the 145 Speer BT, at 2900 fps. from a 7mm08. In this instance the 6.5 CM and the 7mm-08 are ballistically superior to a 308 with the 150 SST bullet and are ballistic twins. They do both have less recoil andI used the 7mm08, with the 145 Speer for years, and had no problems taking moose to 600 yards. I would likely take the 6.5 CM over the 7mm/08 as it would have the least amount of recoil and I can buy factory ammo for it.
Your comparing two different bullets. and ELDX vs an SST. Which one has better BC. ELDX. So what happens when you change that SST to 155gr ELDM from the 308. Rerun your numbers. The 308 has more velocity which means it has more ftlbs. It wins when you compare the same bullet design /weight. The creedmoor would be even slower pushing a 150gr bullet. The 308 would be faster again. The extra velocity makes up for the slightly lower BC inside these ranges. It also punches a bigger hole. What will bleed faster a vessel (elk/deer) with a .264 hole, or a .308 diamter hole. There is zero argument against this.
  #106  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:55 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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My main reason too, for hunting purposes only.
It’ll be a tough decision for which to take, 6.5 CM or Swede.
Either way I have 100% confidence squeezing the trigger on a deer this fall...Or an elk
Get a 308 or a 270 or a 3006. They are all better than 6.5 cm
  #107  
Old 05-13-2018, 05:57 PM
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Just to throw wood on the fire here....25-06 is a very capable, flatter shooting opponent for the 6.5CM if one prefers speeders in long actions and big brass with more powder.

Outside of the CM being a better performer in crosswind the 257 bullet performs very closely. Unfortunately no manufacturer I know of is turning out long heavy for caliber high bc bullets to boost the 257's performance. This is where the 6.5 CM excels.

Out to very close to 500 yds, pretty much a max hunting range anyways, the old 25 Niedner is right with the 6.5 outside of under 100 fps of energy.

Aannddd there's always the ability to say you're shooting a cartridge older than the good old 270 if you're into such things.
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  #108  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:00 PM
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Get a 308 or a 270 or a 3006. They are all better than 6.5 cm
Better?


Felt recoil?

To reload?

Better BC bullets?

How about ppl just buy what they shoot well?

Or perhaps you just meant "the probability you'll be able to buy cheap soft point ammo at your local hardware store" better.
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  #109  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:04 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Your comparing two different bullets. and ELDX vs an SST. Which one has better BC. ELDX. So what happens when you change that SST to 155gr ELDM from the 308. Rerun your numbers. The 308 has more velocity which means it has more ftlbs. It wins when you compare the same bullet design /weight. The creedmoor would be even slower pushing a 150gr bullet. The 308 would be faster again. The extra velocity makes up for the slightly lower BC inside these ranges. It also punches a bigger hole. What will bleed faster a vessel (elk/deer) with a .264 hole, or a .308 diamter hole. There is zero argument against this.
You are also comparing 2 different bullets, an ELDMatch and ELDX(hybrid). The match has an inherent higher BC where as the X is a better performer on game. The long slender design of the heavy for caliber ELDX allows the petals to open up wide, the wound channel will be bigger than .264 by quite a bit.

No matter what bullet, when compared evenly, pound for pound you'll get more punch from the Creedmoor than the 308.
  #110  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:06 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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There’s one thing that is never mentioned when light weight bullets get used at distance.

Which is momentum.

There’s a reason that sub 120 grain bullets often wobble but seldom knock over shilouette rams.

The same can be said on game as well. But it’s not as definitive.

James Pondro Taylor was onto something with his TKO calculation, beit he was discussing non expanding bullets, and dangerous game animals, so frontal area and mass ruled the day, but it still is a calculation worth running.

Having taken the odd longish poke on game I can say I want decent mass and as much impact velocity I can muster.
The .308, and the 6.5’s(medium action) aren’t what I’d intentionally take to shoot an elk on the north side of 450 that’s for sure.
Absolutely - Momentum .. the overlooked component regarding penetration which is seldom mentioned in most discussions regarding bullet terminal performance. This is another performance area where minimalist leanings don't hold much water.
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  #111  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
Better?


Felt recoil?

To reload?

Better BC bullets?

How about ppl just buy what they shoot well?

Or perhaps you just meant "the probability you'll be able to buy cheap soft point ammo at your local hardware store" better.
I missed that part of his post.

No 30 cal bullet is better than a 6.5, that's a proven fact.
  #112  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:09 PM
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Absolutely - Momentum .. the overlooked component regarding penetration which is seldom mentioned in most discussions regarding bullet terminal performance. This is another performance area where minimalist leanings don't hold much water.


You need to re-read posts 90 and 96.

I understand it's hard to accept change, but that doesn't make ignoring facts a viable argument.
  #113  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 270person View Post
Better?


Felt recoil?

To reload?

Better BC bullets?

How about ppl just buy what they shoot well?

Or perhaps you just meant "the probability you'll be able to buy cheap soft point ammo at your local hardware store" better.
I really couldn't tell you the difference between the 708 that I had and the 308 I have now for recoil. Both are tame.

My friends 3006 with no recoil pad is a different story. I really need to put one on for him. Stock design makes a difference for recoil.

They all drop and drift with the wind., pick caliber and practise.I'm pretty sure I can't zero a 6.5 creedmoor at 100 and not have to compensate past 300 within reason of bullet choice. No different than any other caliber.

Ballistics are funny on paper . This caliber drops 4 inches less at 600 than that. They both dropped over 50 inches to get there. Cant figure that out then it's a missed shot
  #114  
Old 05-13-2018, 06:51 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
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They all drop and drift with the wind., pick caliber and practise.I'm pretty sure I can't zero a 6.5 creedmoor at 100 and not have to compensate past 300 within reason of bullet choice. No different than any other caliber.

They all perform better or worse in wind as a function of better and poorer BC's. The CM's high BC's means it functions better.

There's a reason some bullets are considered by the military. The CM is in the discussion big time.
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  #115  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:13 PM
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They all perform better or worse in wind as a function of better and poorer BC's. The CM's high BC's means it functions better.

There's a reason some bullets are considered by the military. The CM is in the discussion big time.
Yes but usually high BC is a target bullet not hunting. Still only good for a certain range before the energy wears off . They are looking at 300 Norma nag as well. So which is better?

30 cal will require heavier bullets but still have more energy if velocity is achieved. Same as 338 to 30.

No real winner as no caliber us a do all. Still comes down to the shooter putting trigger time in.

They guy who puts the time behind a 303 and knows it will hit more targets than I can with the best caliber in the world if I don't practise. That's really all it comes down to too.

I really don't think I will become a world class shooter from caliber choice.
  #116  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:26 PM
Salavee Salavee is online now
 
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You need to re-read posts 90 and 96.

I understand it's hard to accept change, but that doesn't make ignoring facts a viable argument.
I read those. I also read the same JB stuff on another forum.
What facts are being ignored ? I missed that part.
As to change, I can handle that , whether for better or for worse
but we are not discussing change here. It's all pretty well old stuff.
It seems to me that you are the one trying to change something .. in to something it isn't and I'm not buying the concept, It's not all that important really. .. just different references, experiences and opinions, that's all. We'll see how the CM morphs in another couple of years.
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  #117  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:29 PM
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It has a short action with the ability for long for calibre bullets, whether that means anythibg to the average shooter or not is sort of beside the point, as is the fact it has innarguably been marketed well.

My objection has to marky_marks claim that it was innefective for use on big game....obviously a ridiculous claim based on the long history of the 6.5x55 on game.

There are always way too many cartridges, with far too little to differentiate beween them these days, the creed won because of marketing for sure, that doesn't make it bad.
I never said it wouldn’t kill an animal. I was stating that there is way better options

As for Personal experience.. On the 3 antelope hunts I did last year, I seen multiple antelope shot with the mighty 6.5 creedmoor. All of them required a minimum of at least 1 follow up shot. One sucked up 4 more shots. I was using a 26 nosler and every one was bang flop. If you count the buddy’s that borrowed my rifle for antelope, 5 went down instantly with the 26. Only difference between the creedmoor and the nosler is FPS.

Of the 7 musk ox our group took last year. They were shot with either a 308 or a 30/06. Every one shot with a 308 took multiple bullets. One took 5 shots. The 30/06 was far superior. Some took 2 but most were only 1. Once again what was the only difference? FPS
I could go on and on

I believe your limiting yourself with the creedmoor
Hornady will be pushing the 6.5 prc And they are already marketing it as the creedmoors big brother
  #118  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:32 PM
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I chose to go 6.5X47. Here are my numbers for my load I use.
130 Berger hunting
600 yds
10.9 MOA or 68.5" drop
Velocity= 2070.3 fps
Energy= 1237.2 ft-lb

300 Win Mag
215 Berger Hybrid
600 yds
10.1 MOA or 63.6" drop
Velocity= 2258.9 fps
Energy= 2435.9 ft-lb

So even when comparing the 143 ELD-X out of the creed my X47 with a 130 gr Berger is outrunning it. Now should everyone sell their Creeds? Absolutely not, it is a good round. Numbers can be deceiving. Both my guns listed here are full customs with custom reamers used to get the maximum performance out of each gun. My 300 Win Mag at 1000 yds has 1834.2 fps and 1606 ft-lbs. Not a hard decision for me which gun I take when going after elk. Bigger the better. Would my 6.5X47 kill a elk at 600 yds? Probably but why not use the right tool for the job?
  #119  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Beeman3 View Post
I chose to go 6.5X47. Here are my numbers for my load I use.
130 Berger hunting
600 yds
10.9 MOA or 68.5" drop
Velocity= 2070.3 fps
Energy= 1237.2 ft-lb

300 Win Mag
215 Berger Hybrid
600 yds
10.1 MOA or 63.6" drop
Velocity= 2258.9 fps
Energy= 2435.9 ft-lb

So even when comparing the 143 ELD-X out of the creed my X47 with a 130 gr Berger is outrunning it. Now should everyone sell their Creeds? Absolutely not, it is a good round. Numbers can be deceiving. Both my guns listed here are full customs with custom reamers used to get the maximum performance out of each gun. My 300 Win Mag at 1000 yds has 1834.2 fps and 1606 ft-lbs. Not a hard decision for me which gun I take when going after elk. Bigger the better. Would my 6.5X47 kill a elk at 600 yds? Probably but why not use the right tool for the job?
You ll never convince me a butter knife isn't a flat head screw driver ....
  #120  
Old 05-13-2018, 07:57 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
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I never said it wouldn’t kill an animal. I was stating that there is way better options

As for Personal experience.. On the 3 antelope hunts I did last year, I seen multiple antelope shot with the mighty 6.5 creedmoor. All of them required a minimum of at least 1 follow up shot. One sucked up 4 more shots. I was using a 26 nosler and every one was bang flop. If you count the buddy’s that borrowed my rifle for antelope, 5 went down instantly with the 26. Only difference between the creedmoor and the nosler is FPS.

Of the 7 musk ox our group took last year. They were shot with either a 308 or a 30/06. Every one shot with a 308 took multiple bullets. One took 5 shots. The 30/06 was far superior. Some took 2 but most were only 1. Once again what was the only difference? FPS
I could go on and on

I believe your limiting yourself with the creedmoor
Hornady will be pushing the 6.5 prc And they are already marketing it as the creedmoors big brother
I’ve killed big game with the 243, 260, 7-08, 7x57, 280, 280 AI, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm MSM, 308, 30-06, 300 WM, and 338 Win Mag and 95% of the time no one on this earth could tell the difference between any of them by game reaction after the hit. Now to be fair most were hit where it counts. If you shoot something in the guts you generally have to shoot them again regardless of the cannon you are packing.
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