6.5 Grendel vs 308 Win

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar

You did not present them and you even went as far as to say on numerous occasions that they are irrelevant. If you can't even keep your statement the same who is ever going to take you serious?



This statement holds no credence what so ever. If both are assumed to be non deformable. With enough force either will penetrate.




Try a needle vs a needle. I can balance a needle on my hand and not be harmed. If I push on that balance needle it will penetrate through my hand. Exact same needle Exact same starting velocity. What forced the needle into my hand?

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Lol, no flip flopping, trying to acknowledge that long ago I looked at all the energy momentum and other theories. Bullets are needles. The higher sd given same impact velocity goes deeper. Doesn’t matter the difference in energy.

You are dancing around the question and not answering.

In your theory of energy plays no role. What made that needle move? Give me I direct and honest answer from your point of view.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Lol, no flip flopping, trying to acknowledge that long ago I looked at all the energy momentum and other theories. Bullets are needles. The higher sd given same impact velocity goes deeper. Doesn’t matter the difference in energy.

No one is arguing that that higher the sd and the higher the impact velocity the deeper the bullet will go. I think you understand the concept but you don't understand the physics. Kinetic energy is calculated by 0.5mV^2 or 0.5mV*V. Your velocity term is in this equation but so is the mass. That is why energy is the most important part and not just mass and not just velocity. Mass between bullets usually doesn't change a pile for hunting rounds. What does change is velocity and that term is squared. So for every 100ft/s increase you get 10,000 fold increase to energy. So if you are saying velocity is important, then YES you are correct. But energy is what makes velocity important. That's why it is frustrating when you fail to quote energy difference in any of your comparisons.

[marxman]

stinky is correct you dont need energy if youve got velocity and sd although it might tell you how much trauma it has the potential to cause . it will tell you that a 223 and a 357 are pretty close and i would compare it to the annoying wind chill factor when the radio guy tells you the wind chill factor and not the temp and wind speed. wind chill factor and energy are both on unknown baselines

[marxman]

but stinky why not neck up your creed to 7 mil with the same bullet weight it would shoot faster and flatter to 400 yards and be almost as good as the old 270

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by marxman

stinky is correct you dont need energy if youve got velocity and sd although it might tell you how much trauma it has the potential to cause . it will tell you that a 223 and a 357 are pretty close and i would compare it to the annoying wind chill factor when the radio guy tells you the wind chill factor and not the temp and wind speed. wind chill factor and energy are both on unknown baselines

This makes no sense. You are quoting velocity and mass but you don't use energy?

[Don_Parsons]

Then add the Nathan Foster bullet thing into the mix of math and numbers.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Res...on+Forums.html

Or just buy a cartrage and rifle that will fill those needs.

The only numbers that work for me is the ones on paper or into the Wrapper. Ha.

Age old bullets that would of been well suited high velocities rifles that aren't the best for low velocities,,, and lows that don't perform in the highs.

Finding the happy mix is where I spend my funds. Ha.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

This makes no sense. You are quoting velocity and mass but you don't use energy?

Yes it makes perfect sense but I guess I can't explain it either

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by marxman

stinky is correct you dont need energy if youve got velocity and sd although it might tell you how much trauma it has the potential to cause .

You may not think you need it but you have it regardless of what you think you need. Can you not understand that energy is inherently tied to objects in motion?

Originally Posted by marxman

I would compare it to the annoying wind chill factor when the radio guy tells you the wind chill factor and not the temp and wind speed. wind chill factor and energy are both on unknown baselines.

This is the same thing all over. If I have a temperature and a wind speed you have a wind chill factor. Wind chill is the rate of cooling relative to still air. You can't have a cold windy day without a wind chill factor. Just like energy of a moving object it is there and known.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar

You may not think you need it but you have it regardless of what you think you need. Can you not understand that energy is inherently tied to objects in motion?



This is the same thing all over. If I have a temperature and a wind speed you have a wind chill factor. Wind chill is the rate of cooling relative to still air. You can't have a cold windy day without a wind chill factor. Just like energy of a moving object it is there and known.

...sigh...

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by marxman

...sigh...

This does nothing to further your cause. Please explain to me were you are able to have motion without energy? One example just one.

Perhaps you think I'm just talking out of my ass since I have not cited anything so here you go.

"Kinetic energy, form of energy that an object or a particle has by reason of its motion." (https://www.britannica.com/science/kinetic-energy)


/**/
Edit: Just so you can see that wind chill is also a known and calculated value.

"Whind chill is usually reported as a “wind chill temperature or wind chill equivalent that is, the temperature under calm air at which heat loss would be equal to the loss actually being experienced because of higher wind speeds" (https://www.britannica.com/science/wind-chill)

[Stinky Coyote]

Energy is there, however it’s essentially useless figure for determining penetration. Does that help?

Penetration, the important figures to use to gauge or compare, or even predict on game performance, are sd, impact velocity, and bullet construction. Energy and larger diam. can give more wound channel damage but it’s fraction gain compared to the disproportionate amount of recoil is not direct relationship. Again...energy calc is useless info, except to tell you what you’re going to feel when you pull the trigger.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Energy is there, however it’s essentially useless figure for determining penetration. Does that help?

Penetration, the important figures to use to gauge or compare, or even predict on game performance, are sd, impact velocity, and bullet construction. Energy and larger diam. can give more wound channel damage but it’s fraction gain compared to the disproportionate amount of recoil is not direct relationship. Again...energy calc is useless info, except to tell you what you’re going to feel when you pull the trigger.

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. Without energy you don't have penetration. This isn't an opinion. This is a FACT.
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Equipment/...le_physics.php

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar

You may not think you need it but you have it regardless of what you think you need. Can you not understand that energy is inherently tied to objects in motion?



This is the same thing all over. If I have a temperature and a wind speed you have a wind chill factor. Wind chill is the rate of cooling relative to still air. You can't have a cold windy day without a wind chill factor. Just like energy of a moving object it is there and known.

i see you have misunderstood me i meant you dont need energy as a measurement of course it takes energy to move a bullet

[AndrewM]

For those that want to skip the read:
Pressure P is a force F per area A
P = F / A.
The change in energy of a system dE is the force exerted on the system (in this case the projectile) times the distance over which the force is exerted dx
dE = -F dx
where the minus sign indicates the force is in the opposite direction of the projectile motion, so that its energy is being reduced. For penetration of a thick target to occur, we need the pressure to equal the cavity strength
P = Yc.
Combining these relations, we find
dE = Yc A dx.
Since this relation is linear, if we know the energy E of the projectile when it initially hits the target, we can easily find the distance penetrated xp
xp = E / (Yc A).
For the purpose of this discussion, we can ignore the potential energy of the projectile, so that its energy is given by its kinetic energy alone
E = ½ m v²
where m is the projectile mass and v is its speed. We now have
xp = m*v²/(A*2*Yc)
SD=m/A
xp=v²*Yc*2*SD
SD and YC are constant. Velocity is not so penetration is not constant. It has a quadratic relationship with velocity.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

For those that want to skip the read:
Pressure P is a force F per area A
P = F / A.
The change in energy of a system dE is the force exerted on the system (in this case the projectile) times the distance over which the force is exerted dx
dE = -F dx
where the minus sign indicates the force is in the opposite direction of the projectile motion, so that its energy is being reduced. For penetration of a thick target to occur, we need the pressure to equal the cavity strength
P = Yc.
Combining these relations, we find
dE = Yc A dx.
Since this relation is linear, if we know the energy E of the projectile when it initially hits the target, we can easily find the distance penetrated xp
xp = E / (Yc A).
For the purpose of this discussion, we can ignore the potential energy of the projectile, so that its energy is given by its kinetic energy alone
E = ½ m v²
where m is the projectile mass and v is its speed. We now have
xp = m*v²/(A*2*Yc)
SD=m/A
xp=v²*Yc*2*SD
SD and YC are constant. Velocity is not so penetration is not constant. It has a quadratic relationship with velocity.

Wholly shhhhhmokes

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Wholly shhhhhmokes

Should be obvious that this claim "Same penetration, .252/.253 sd’s" is obviously not correct.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Should be obvious that this claim "Same penetration, .252/.253 sd’s" is obviously not correct.

To be honest, a lot of these formulas are way above my pay grade, the rule of thumb I’ve grown to live by is 1000ft/lbs of energy and 1500fps or 600yds, whichever comes first is my limit, the means of getting there doesn’t change my numbers.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. Without energy you don't have penetration. This isn't an opinion. This is a FACT.
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Equipment/...le_physics.php

I agree with you, energy is there, trust me I know the formula off by heart and have for used for 20 yrs. air guns archery and firearms ballistics, I gauge a bows efficiency by how many ft/lbs I get on the arrow compared to pull draw weight, I have acutely compaired pellet energy and velocity for a long time and on small game also...it’s the same there, the .177 vs .22 debate is eternal, speed vs energy...I got you man.👌

[Norwest Alta]

Ya like he said. Lol

[Don_Parsons]

Very interesting read, it takes some form of energy to make something occur.

Is it true that energy is not gained or lost,,, but might be changed from one form to another.

Not sure if I worded this right.

My example might be :

A bullet hits a critter, some of the energy goes towards opening up the bullet, heat and the depletion of velocities as the bullet comes to rest.

Only at that point is the end of energy transfer,,, of course the critter contains the shock wave of some of this impact and purhaps other things that we don't see with our eyes.

Don't know as its still some what Intresting stuff.

My next question is :

If energy does play a role between 2 different objects,,, what would come into play that might make the differences

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I agree with you, energy is there, trust me I know the formula off by heart and have for used for 20 yrs. air guns archery and firearms ballistics, I gauge a bows efficiency by how many ft/lbs I get on the arrow compared to pull draw weight, I have acutely compaired pellet energy and velocity for a long time and on small game also...it’s the same there, the .177 vs .22 debate is eternal, speed vs energy...I got you man.👌

I'm spooked by anybody that utters the "trust me" thingy.

I learned from my "professor" that an arrow delivers very little enegry to it's target, Matter of fact he indicated an arrow is driven through it's target by a force called Momentum and imparts little, if any, energy to the target. It kills by cutting,not energy transfer.
Should I sue him for lying to me ?.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I'm spooked by anybody that utters the "trust me" thingy.

I learned from my "professor" that an arrow delivers very little enegry to it's target, Matter of fact he indicated an arrow is driven through it's target by a force called Momentum and imparts little, if an energy to the target. It kills by cutting,not energy transfer.
Should I sue hin for lying to me ?.

Small surface area on blades means lots of pressure with less force. But I am willing to bet you know this.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I'm spooked by anybody that utters the "trust me" thingy.

I learned from my "professor" that an arrow delivers very little enegry to it's target, Matter of fact he indicated an arrow is driven through it's target by a force called Momentum and imparts little, if an energy to the target. It kills by cutting,not energy transfer.
Should I sue him for lying to me ?.

Is that like a mono metal bullet?

[Salavee]

Look it up

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Look it up

I thought you might know


Did your professor say what action happens when you hit solid bone? Though nowhere near the energy of a bullet, I’m sure an arrow would transfer energy in some instances.

The reason I bring this point up is because no matter the weapon, there are no guarantees in Hunting whether it’s with an arrow or a 220gr Nosler partition.

[Don_Parsons]

The artical posted had some Intresting information on the 1998 test.

How come both arrows only penitrad the hard steel plate 0.84 mm and 1.8mm as the 22 rimfire left a 3.3 mm dint.

Dam,,, and here I though my arrows had way more punch then my 22.

The 50 caliber BMG had the deepest dints in the hardened steel plate of 14mm and 29mm into the armor piercing plate.

Purhaps energy does play a roll after all.

Who would though that. Ha

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I thought you might know


Did your professor say what action happens when you hit solid bone? Though nowhere near the energy of a bullet, I’m sure an arrow would transfer energy in some instances.

The reason I bring this point up is because no matter the weapon, there are no guarantees in Hunting whether it’s with an arrow or a 220gr Nosler partition.

As I recall, a 400 gr arrow carries about 50 lbs if kinetic energy. Not Sure. Check with Stinky. He has the formula

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

As I recall, a 400 gr arrow carries about 50 lbs if kinetic energy. Not Sure. Check with Stinky. He has the formula

I would ask Stinky but you’re the one who brought it up.

Are you talking about flying out of a 35# longbow or an 80lb bowtech realm sr6? In the case of an arrow I believe velocity plays a role as well.

I don’t really want the answer, I’m just trying to make a point.

Ps, Andrew has way better formulas imo.

[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I would ask Stinky but you’re the one who brought it up.

Are you talking about flying out of a 35# longbow or an 80lb bowtech realm sr6? In the case of an arrow I believe velocity plays a role as well.

I don’t really want the answer, I’m just trying to make a point.

Ps, Andrew has way better formulas imo.

Kinetic energy is 1/2(mass)(velocity)^2 so if anyone would provide me your setup with arrow weight and velocity I’ll do the conversions and calculate the kinetic energy at release happily.