Gunsmith shot by police Ontario

[JDK71]

Originally Posted by sns2

He's proud of his colors. Family is not. He is.

And he should be ( Loved by few Hated by many Respected by all) enjoy your weekend!

[sns2]

Originally Posted by JDK71

And he should be ( Loved by few Hated by many Respected by all) enjoy your weekend!

I’m gonna stay out of that one. My point was that even if an HA shows up to your funeral, it does not mean you were associated with that person in any unlawful way. Stuff will continue to come out leading up to the civil suit.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Like everything else it’s how your read the wording and your mindset grasps it!
That goes for all myself included!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"interesting" doesn't seem to be just a random choice of words, especially with the quotation marks around it.

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

"interesting" doesn't seem to be just a random choice of words, especially with the quotation marks around it.

Seems like this one was directing at me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And if so...all good.

With all due respect...

This press conference was last Tuesday if I recall right. Some have said, again with all due respect, that I am beating an old horse. Fair enough, but it is the latest news/videos on this.

So I was simply discussing the latest "interesting" video on this.

Of course, my opinion only...

[sns2]

Phil, in your opinion, from what you know about this case, and everything that's been back and forth on this thread, do you honestly feel that the officer acted in the proper fashion, and the TPS has been transparent with the media and the family?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

[Phil McCracken]

Originally Posted by sns2

Phil, in your opinion, from what you know about this case, and everything that's been back and forth on this thread, do you honestly feel that the officer acted in the proper fashion, and the TPS has been transparent with the media and the family?

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

Hello sns2...

As I stated before, and again with all due respect, I already discussed the circumstances when the officers went in, and what they had to deal with at the time. Hectic situation for sure...

I believe the SIU did a thorough investigation. Some may not agree. In fact I bet you not all read the entire documents, just the highlights. That's ok...

All we hear about now, and for the next months I reckon, will be about the 23M+ lawsuit.

So, when/if it goes to civil court, we will see how it goes...

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, and other folks about this...

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Phil McCracken

Hello sns2...

As I stated before, and again with all due respect, I already discussed the circumstances when the officers went in, and what they had to deal with at the time. Hectic situation for sure...

I believe the SIU did a thorough investigation. Some may not agree. In fact I bet you not all read the entire documents, just the highlights. That's ok...

All we hear about now, and for the next months I reckon, will be about the 23M+ lawsuit.

So, when/if it goes to civil court, we will see how it goes...

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, and other folks about this...

Phil, thanks for that.

Nothing you have said in this thread was out of keeping with a former officer. Nobody would expect you not to be pro police. Just as I would be pro-teacher. But honestly, I have no problem with acknowledging that there are bad apples in my profession that taint the rest who do their best. The more it happens, the more the mistrust, and the greater the scrutiny from the public. It’s just logical.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sns2

Phil, thanks for that.

Nothing you have said in this thread was out of keeping with a former officer. Nobody would expect you not to be pro police. Just as I would be pro-teacher. But honestly, I have no problem with acknowledging that there are bad apples in my profession that taint the rest who do their best. The more it happens, the more the mistrust, and the greater the scrutiny from the public. It’s just logical.

There are bad apples in every profession, and people remember the few bad apples, more than they remember the many that do their job. And of course when the bad apple injures or kills someone, or violates their home or property, it gets a lot more attention than the bad apple that is simply rude , or that makes mistakes that don't have serious/long term consequences. So while it seems like some people have the idea that only certain professions are corrupt/incompetent, that isn't the really case, it's more like the consequences of a mistake in certain professions, is much more serious, than a mistake in others, so those mistakes get a lot more attention. And of course the way that the profession deals with bad apples has a huge bearing on how the public views that profession. And if you get bad service from most professions or tradesmen, you simply choose another business to deal with in the future, but with police/firefighters, etc, you don't have that option, which just makes the situation even worse, and erodes the trust in that profession even more.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

There are bad apples in every profession, and people remember the few bad apples, more than they remember the many that do their job. And of course when the bad apple injures or kills someone, or violates their home or property, it gets a lot more attention than the bad apple that is simply rude , or that makes mistakes that don't have serious/long term consequences. So while it seems like some people have the idea that only certain professions are corrupt/incompetent, that isn't the really case, it's more like the consequences of a mistake in certain professions, is much more serious, than a mistake in others, so those mistakes get a lot more attention. And of course the way that the profession deals with bad apples has a huge bearing on how the public views that profession. And if you get bad service from most professions or tradesmen, you simply choose another business to deal with in the future, but with police/firefighters, etc, you don't have that option, which just makes the situation even worse, and erodes the trust in that profession even more.

I know Elk is my good friend, but he stated my feelings better than I could. I have no disrespect, much less hatred for police. That’s for criminals. But in these kind of cases, where an 70 some yr old guy got bullets pumped in him, you can’t have too much scrutiny. Too much just seems too out of the ordinary. So, it just should come as no surprise when guys on a hunting and gun forum question what on earth led to this end.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

I know Elk is my good friend, but he stated my feelings better than I could. I have no disrespect, much less hatred for police. That’s for criminals. But in these kind of cases, where an 70 some yr old guy got bullets pumped in him, you can’t have too much scrutiny. Too much just seems too out of the ordinary. So, it just should come as no surprise when guys on a hunting and gun forum question what on earth led to this end.

A truly sad day for all involved which will always have questions that will remain unanswered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bat119]

What I don't understand is why they used such heavy handed tactics wouldn't it have been easier to pull him over arrest him then kick in the door when nobody's home?

[JD848]

Originally Posted by bat119

What I don't understand is why they used such heavy handed tactics wouldn't it have been easier to pull him over arrest him then kick in the door when nobody's home?

I think that's the part most rational folks are asking each other, it's not like he was going to make a break for it on foot or flush the handguns down the toilet .

I guess they thought he might eat his Geritol and lay a good thumpen on them .

You may beat the keeper of the gates on this earth, but once you leave this earth there's no cheating the keeper of heaven.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

A truly sad day for all involved which will always have questions that will remain unanswered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And therein lies the problem. The questions *could* be answered, but they will remain unanswered. Because, 'I thought I saw a gun', self defense, nothing to see here.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

And therein lies the problem. The questions *could* be answered, but they will remain unanswered. Because, 'I thought I saw a gun', self defense, nothing to see here.

Go to post #422.

And hit the link.

Not sure where your pulling I thought I saw a gun from?

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by sns2

Phil, thanks for that.

Nothing you have said in this thread was out of keeping with a former officer. Nobody would expect you not to be pro police. Just as I would be pro-teacher. But honestly, I have no problem with acknowledging that there are bad apples in my profession that taint the rest who do their best. The more it happens, the more the mistrust, and the greater the scrutiny from the public. It’s just logical.

Exactly

Its like a compliment

When you receive a compliment, you may remember it for a day or three

If someone insults or.offends you, likely you will remember it for years....

Same as cop work. You do good, not much is said because thats the expectation.....

Do something bad and you are done for life.

[Twisted Canuck]

It's a figure of speech. Where I got it from is an old joke. It's the punchline. You've probably heard it. And, as I mentioned earlier, the report may be entirely adequate for you. Your bias has been stated. No point restating the issue.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Go to post #422.

And hit the link.

Not sure where your pulling I thought I saw a gun from?

Of course that is based on the police version of what supposedly happened. We still don't know who the supposed witness was, and if he is associated with the police, or if there is any reason for him to support their version of what happened, even if it isn't what really happened.

Does it not sound strange to you, for a gunsmith to pick up a partly assembled pistol, with no magazine, and point it at the police? Anything is possible, but it certainly doesn't sound likely.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Of course that is based on the police version of what supposedly happened. We still don't know who the supposed witness was, and if he is associated with the police, or if there is any reason for him to support their version of what happened, even if it isn't what really happened.

Does it not sound strange to you, for a gunsmith to pick up a partly assembled pistol, with no magazine, and point it at the police? Anything is possible, but it certainly doesn't sound likely.

Partly assembled pistol with no mag?

Have to ask where did this information come from? Just curious.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Partly assembled pistol with no mag?

Have to ask where did this information come from? Just curious.

We’re you a cop in the military?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Partly assembled pistol with no mag?

Have to ask where did this information come from? Just curious.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...rfolk-gunsmith

The complainant was putting the pistol together again – the magazine had not been re-inserted in the firearm .

Of course the SIU press release conveniently left out those details.

[honda610]

Well its definitely seems suspicious to me. You have a gun shop full of Guns?....who would of thought, and a man who is licensed to work on them let's kick in the door catch him at work and pump some slugs in him. Thats like shooting a plumber because he has a wrench in his hand in his shop. Why not wait until he walked outside and approached him while no firearms are present. The witness story sounds strange to me as well. A man called asked for a repair the exact time the raid was happening? I bet the gunsmith was startled and turned to the commotion behind him and the cop seen a gun in his hand while he turned. We will never know the truth....
The more I read about and deal with police the more I realize they have way more than a few bad apple's and are rotten from the top down.

[58thecat]

I think we can all agree that had the gun smith just followed the repeated commands as did the customer this would have ended better.

Not sure what goes through peoples mind when startled as we all act different.

There are always going to be questions, media twists, speculations etc but like I mentioned earlier just a very unfortunate outcome for all involved.

thx Elk for the additional info....

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by sns2

We’re you a cop in the military?

nope...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I think we can all agree that had the gun smith just followed the repeated commands as did the customer this would have ended better.

Not sure what goes through peoples mind when startled as we all act different.

There are always going to be questions, media twists, speculations etc but like I mentioned earlier just a very unfortunate outcome for all involved.

thx Elk for the additional info....

If that’s what happened I would agree.
Seems very odd he would make a grab for a dismantled weapon. That’s suicide.
You go ahead and take their word. You always do. Myself, I’ll just say I don’t know what happened and never will. Using reason, I think I could place a good guess though.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I think we can all agree that had the gun smith just followed the repeated commands as did the customer this would have ended better.

Not sure what goes through peoples mind when startled as we all act different.

There are always going to be questions, media twists, speculations etc but like I mentioned earlier just a very unfortunate outcome for all involved.

thx Elk for the additional info....

I think we can all agree that the SIU report may be the complete and unvarnished truth of the matter, as you assume, and maybe it isn't. You are obviously of the position that Kotanko is dead because he did something wrong, which is why the police attended with a warrant, and then he did something wrong and didn't obey commands by the police. Because the police say that is what has happened. So it must be true. And since Kotanko is too dead to have a say in the matter, and the 'civilian' witness is unavailable to comment, the case is closed.

That's your bias, you are welcome to it. But using expressions like 'we can all agree' is laughable. If we all agreed, this thread wouldn't still be going, would it? The report offers a version of events, with no evidence required to back it up. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. It leaves many good questions unanswered. As was pointed out earlier, if this happened to one of our reputable gunsmith's here in Alberta, perhaps you may not be so sanguine about it. Then again, you probably would be.

I think we can all agree that the entire approach to this matter by the TPS was poorly planned and executed, and there were much better alternatives to how they did it that didn't involve a respected gunsmith being killed.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

I think we can all agree that the SIU report may be the complete and unvarnished truth of the matter, as you assume, and maybe it isn't. You are obviously of the position that Kotanko is dead because he did something wrong, which is why the police attended with a warrant, and then he did something wrong and didn't obey commands by the police. Because the police say that is what has happened. So it must be true. And since Kotanko is too dead to have a say in the matter, and the 'civilian' witness is unavailable to comment, the case is closed.

That's your bias, you are welcome to it. But using expressions like 'we can all agree' is laughable. If we all agreed, this thread wouldn't still be going, would it? The report offers a version of events, with no evidence required to back it up. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not. It leaves many good questions unanswered. As was pointed out earlier, if this happened to one of our reputable gunsmith's here in Alberta, perhaps you may not be so sanguine about it. Then again, you probably would be.

ok...how about this...the truth is out there...can we all agree on that?

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

ok...how about this...the truth is out there...can we all agree on that?

Sure. The odds of knowing it are slim to none unfortunately.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If that’s what happened I would agree.
Seems very odd he would make a grab for a dismantled weapon. That’s suicide.
You go ahead and take their word. You always do. Myself, I’ll just say I don’t know what happened and never will. Using reason, I think I could place a good guess though.

moose your guess is as good as mine, like twisted said a lot of good questions open for discussion.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I think we can all agree that had the gun smith just followed the repeated commands as did the customer this would have ended better.

Not sure what goes through peoples mind when startled as we all act different.

There are always going to be questions, media twists, speculations etc but like I mentioned earlier just a very unfortunate outcome for all involved.

thx Elk for the additional info....

Once again, you are assuming that there were repeated commands, and that they were given before any shots were fired. Did you ever wonder how the police even knew that he would be in the shop, when they arrived? Given he was a senior, with a shop at his residence , and the fact that it was mentioned that the "customer" called the night before to make sure that he would be there, it appears that he worked by appointment. Unless the police made an appointment, or had a "customer" make an appointment how could they be sure that he would be at his shop when they arrived, And of course that would explain why nobody seems to know who this mystery "customer " was, and why no details of who he is, have been released, it's not like the police would want the identity of a paid/confidential informant released. And you can be certain that an informat is going to give whatever statement the police tell him to give. That is why I would like to know who this "customer" was, and if he had any ties to the police.
As to the details of what happened, I believe that he had a handgun on the desk or in his hand, he is after all a gunsmith. But I find it more logical, that a police officer thought that the handgun was a threat and opened fire, without the gunsmith actually pointing it at the officers. And if he had the handgun in his hand and was startled by the police, he may have waved it when he was startled, and the officer took that movement as him swinging the gun on the police. But I don't find it at all logical, for a gunsmith to pick up a partly assembled handgun, and point it at the police, even after being told multiple times to put it down. I don't for a second believe that the police would even wait to give several commands if they honestly believed that he was pointing a loaded handgun at them because the delay could get one of them killed.
As to why they would come up with the story about him pointing the handgun, and giving him multiple commands, I believe they walked up on the body, realized that the handgun was not even complete, let alone loaded, and realized how badly the truth would look to the public. So they made up their story, made certain the "customer" was on board, and that is the version that they all reported.
Now of course I wasn't present, just as none of us were, but my version is based on logic, and makes a lot more sense than the one reported in the SIU release.

[pikergolf]

Body cameras should be mandatory on every person involved in a take down like this. The footage should then be reviewed by a panel including members of the public, every time something goes sideways. They had lots of time to prep. It's a no brainer.