Conflict in Alberta's Wildrose party

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Why should someone be forced to do something that their religion prohibits?

The abortion debate was settled 30yrs ago. Let it go already.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

The abortion debate was settled 30yrs ago. Let it go already.

Ya, it's legal. The issue of making a Christian doctor, who believes it's murder, perform one is a different issue.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Ya, it's legal. The issue of making a Christian doctor, who believes it's murder, perform one is a different issue.

Don't want to do the medicine, don't choose the profession.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Don't want to do the medicine, don't choose the profession.

Sorry very weak argument, for one procedure that lots of Dr. will willing do you would exclude a host of potential candidates. Plus it's not just Christians, there are lots of people that find it murder, but that's not the argument. Argument is should you be forced to preform it, my guide post has always been why, would I force someone to do something I don't have the stomach for.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I Anderson and the other old boys are out-of-touch with the majority of primarily urban, educated, open-minded Albertans. Just look at the issues that sunk them.... If WR keeps pandering to the haters, those that want a return to some british, white Canada of the 1950's, or those (some of them on this board) who wish Alberta was Texas-north, the party will be smashed in the face like the last time, every time.

I love it when you put your foot in your mouth.

In the last Provincial Election the PC party received 567 060 votes. The Wildrose Party received 442 449. Not sure how that’s being smashed in the face? Gaining 13 seats and having liberals & NDP'rs destroy their own parties with strategic voting sure doesn't seem like a "smashed in the face" sort of thing to me.

The champagne socialists can preach "urban, educated, open-minded" until their kids get home from art camp... but at the end of the day 34.3% of the vote went to the party public sector employees and humanity majors love to despise.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Don't want to do the medicine, don't choose the profession.

It shouldn't be that simple. And what about doctors who started long ago before it was legal?

There will always be doctors out there who will perform this procedure, I don't know why the ones who believe it's murder should have to do it.

Same with marriage commissioners, why should they be forced to marry homosexuals? If you are gay and want to get married, why not have someone marry you who's religion isn't against it?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Sorry very weak argument, for one procedure that lots of Dr. will willing do you would exclude a host of potential candidates. Plus it's not just Christians, there are lots of people that find it murder, but that's not the argument. Argument is should you be forced to preform it, my guide post has always been why, would I force someone to do something I don't have the stomach for.

And how many of those contentious objectors are forced to do abortions? None. All a doctor has to do is do a referral. You don't just walk in to your GP and hand them a coat hanger and say lets have at it.

Seems a lot of posturing for nothing. The abortion debate is as dead as those fetus. Time to move on.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

And how many of those contentious objectors are forced to do abortions? None. All a doctor has to do is do a referral. You don't just walk in to your GP and hand them a coat hanger and say lets have at it.

Seems a lot of posturing for nothing. The abortion debate is as dead as those fetus. Time to move on.

So does a doctor HAVE to give a referral? I could see this still being an issue to some doctors who don't want to be a part of killing a fetus.

And also, would these conscience rights allow doctors to completely distance themselves from the abortion procedure or would they still have to give referrals?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

So does a doctor HAVE to give a referral? I could see this still being an issue to some doctors who don't want to be a part of killing a fetus.

And also, would these conscience rights allow doctors to completely distance themselves from the abortion procedure or would they still have to give referrals?

And backwards we go. Don't want to do the medicine, don't choose the profession.

If it is that big of a deal for a doctor go work at some pro-life christian ministry retreat somewhere.

Seems like the same old tired arguments that were made when Alberta started legalizing gay marriage. The civil servants that conducted marriages were made to do them because they work for the public, not the ministry. Those that didn't perform their jobs should find a job elsewhere. I have no problems with this at all. You don't want to do the job, fine, get another job where you don't have to do it.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

And backwards we go. Don't want to do the medicine, don't choose the profession.

If it is that big of a deal for a doctor go work at some pro-life christian ministry retreat somewhere.

Seems like the same old tired arguments that were made when Alberta started legalizing gay marriage. The civil servants that conducted marriages were made to do them because they work for the public, not the ministry. Those that didn't perform their jobs should find a job elsewhere. I have no problems with this at all. You don't want to do the job, fine, get another job where you don't have to do it.

Backwards? lol ok

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

And how many of those contentious objectors are forced to do abortions? None. All a doctor has to do is do a referral. You don't just walk in to your GP and hand them a coat hanger and say lets have at it.

Seems a lot of posturing for nothing. The abortion debate is as dead as those fetus. Time to move on.

That's right none, but with the musings of Danni that could all change, and as I said before Dr's will do everything they can to shield those that don't want to. But eventually someone is going to go after a Doc and insist that that particular Doc. has to do it. That needs to be looked at, nobodies trying to dig up the abortion debate again, just look after Drs. that won't do it.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

nobodies trying to dig up the abortion debate again, just look after Drs. that won't do it.

Exactly, I wasn't talking about making abortion illegal or anything, that is another debate.

[riden]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I think Smith is starting to make some of the right noises now. We shall see if her party wants to follow. Bottom line, the WR small 'c' conservative economic agenda will probably sell with Albertans. The small "c" conservative social agenda just won't. And it's becoming increasingly clear the purported leader of the party never believed in it anyway! Amazing. Anderson and the other old boys are out-of-touch with the majority of primarily urban, educated, open-minded Albertans. Just look at the issues that sunk them.... If WR keeps pandering to the haters, those that want a return to some british, white Canada of the 1950's, or those (some of them on this board) who wish Alberta was Texas-north, the party will be smashed in the face like the last time, every time.

I agree.

One thing I have noticed is the socially-far right, more than most, surround themselves with like minded people. I think the result of this is they get a skewed view of their beliefs to the overall population. I have noticed, many are completely unaware of how much a minority they really are, and will never accept it.

I think a lot of people like me, are sick of arguing with them. It's pointless to argue with someone who believes the root of their "beliefs" is biblical. WHich I think some intrepret as acceptance.

I think this encourages some to be completely out of touch.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I love it when you put your foot in your mouth.

In the last Provincial Election the PC party received 567 060 votes. The Wildrose Party received 442 449. Not sure how that’s being smashed in the face? Gaining 13 seats and having liberals & NDP'rs destroy their own parties with strategic voting sure doesn't seem like a "smashed in the face" sort of thing to me.

The champagne socialists can preach "urban, educated, open-minded" until their kids get home from art camp... but at the end of the day 34.3% of the vote went to the party public sector employees and humanity majors love to despise.

Lemme clue you in on the democratic process Sneeze. WR got less votes than Redford and the conservatives... less support... they lost... You lost. Who reflects more Albertan's views? The PC party or the WR? I said the former, and unless you have some proof that the election was stolen and WR actually won, you can go back to your world of make-believe, thinking most people see the world like you do. They don't. You were given proof of that on April 23rd. Ya lost. You don't need to get over it, just get used to it. LOL

[riden]

They are multiple medical fields for a dr to study. If you find some aspects of one distasteful, why would you become one?

I always thought conscience rights were more symbolic to appeal to a certain segment of their following. A charter challenge would blow them out of the water.

[260 Rem]

Organized religion has to be one of the most hipocrital institutions. The majority of Canadians simply don't buy the hocus pokus which is understandable, given the myriad of "versions". I'm glad the majority of Canadians reject mixing religion with politics. We've come a long way, too far in fact to ever be dragged back. Good on Ms. Smith for changing the tune...

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

nobodies trying to dig up the abortion debate again, just look after Drs. that won't do it.

BS. If not to dig up the abortion debate why keep talking about? Nice try. Keep digging.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

BS. If not to dig up the abortion debate why keep talking about? Nice try. Keep digging.

I guess you can't separate two different arguments, and you think I have the problem.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I guess you can't separate two different arguments, and you think I have the problem.

Its not two separate arguments. You and the OP keep harping on the abortion part of this. Its really old. Its been fought and decided many years ago. Just because you don't like it you keep bringing it up. Smoke and mirrors.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

L I said the former, and unless you have some proof that the election was stolen and WR actually won, you can go back to your world of make-believe, thinking most people see the world like you do. They don't. You were given proof of that on April 23rd. Ya lost. You don't need to get over it, just get used to it. LOL

Ahh typical The Oko-Lib response. Ignore the content, change the subject, insult, insinuate.

I am sorry you think 400 000+ people that voted WR are make believe. I try, but there is something about you I just can't fix.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Its not two separate arguments. You and the OP keep harping on the abortion part of this. Its really old. Its been fought and decided many years ago. Just because you don't like it you keep bringing it up. Smoke and mirrors.

I am only discussing whether or not doctors should be forced to perform services that are contrary to their religious beliefs.

You brought up abortion.

If a doctor of a different faith felt it was wrong to provide healthcare to women, I wouldn't want him forced to be my wifes doctor.

Again, you brought up abortion.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadianti

I am only discussing whether or not doctors should be forced to perform services that are contrary to their religious beliefs.

You brought up abortion.

If a doctor of a different faith felt it was wrong to provide healthcare to women, I wouldn't want him forced to be my wifes doctor.

Again, you brought up abortion.

Lets got back in time. Do a little research shall we.

Originally Posted by pikergolf

I guess we'll cut to the quick, as you probably guess the procedure that I am speaking of is for Dr. being forced to preform abortions. When a Dr. signs on part of their oath is to do no harm, and more than a few see this as being harmful. I think if this becomes law Dr.s will do there best to shield those that don't want to do them, but sooner or later someone on a crusade will corner a Dr. an try and force the issue, when that happens a lot of potential Dr.s candidates will look else where to practice. Albertans will lose out.

Post number 6 on the thread. Lets cut to the quick and talk abortion.



Sorry still doesn't hold water.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Lets got back in time. Do a little research shall we.



Post number 6 on the thread. Lets cut to the quick and talk abortion.



Sorry still doesn't hold water.

ok so you don't want to talk about this subject then because the abortion debate has been settled? Why are you posting here?

I don't see anyone here saying that abortion should be illegal. That is another debate.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

ok so you don't want to talk about this subject then because the abortion debate has been settled? Why are you posting here?

I don't see anyone here saying that abortion should be illegal. That is another debate.

So you want to step around the issue by making it appear that you are talking about something else and not the abortion debate? How hard is it to chew out both sides of your face?

Complete BS way of "debating" an issue.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

So you want to step around the issue by making it appear that you are talking about something else and not the abortion debate? How hard is it to chew out both sides of your face?

Complete BS way of "debating" an issue.

Pretend abortion doesn't exist, pretend it's illegal and therefore doesn't matter. Maybe now you can talk about the issue?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Pretend abortion doesn't exist, pretend it's illegal and therefore doesn't matter. Maybe now you can talk about the issue?

What issue? That Danni has changed her tune about some of the more radical, fringe elements in her party? Good to see. When Rev. whatshisname started his schtick and the populous called for him to be removed I said leave him. Let him sink or swim on his own merits. He sank like the titanic.

I see this as a good move by the WRP and will continue to support them. Just won't support "re-opening" the debate on gay marriage, sex changes, or abortion.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

What issue? That Danni has changed her tune about some of the more radical, fringe elements in her party? Good to see. When Rev. whatshisname started his schtick and the populous called for him to be removed I said leave him. Let him sink or swim on his own merits. He sank like the titanic.

I see this as a good move by the WRP and will continue to support them. Just won't support "re-opening" the debate on gay marriage, sex changes, or abortion.

I was talking about the the issue of conscience rights. Forcing a doctor or pharmacist or marriage commissioner to do something that is against their religion. I guess we can't really talk about it though as in your opinion it is re-opening an abortion issue.

I liked that the WRP didn't back down on their stance due to unpopularity. It was short lived though

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I was talking about the the issue of conscience rights. Forcing a doctor or pharmacist or marriage commissioner to do something that is against their religion. I guess we can't really talk about it though as in your opinion it is re-opening an abortion issue.

I liked that the WRP didn't back down on their stance due to unpopularity. It was short lived though

Fine. Give me an example where a pharmacist will have to do something against their religion?

Gay Marriage. Churches don't have to do the service. They can't and shouldn't be forced to do it. Now if you go to a JP and they are employed by the Province and province deems the marriage to be legal he/she has to do their job or look for a new one. They are paid to serve the public. Hence the name civil servant. Not Jesus Servant or Flying spaghetti monster servant, not mohommad's servant. Serve the public. If you don't like the terms of your employment, find a different job.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Fine. Give me an example where a pharmacist will have to do something against their religion?

Morning after pill or birth control I guess. By saying this, I am not trying to debate whether or not these devices/methods should be illegal. I think birth control should be legal, but I wouldn't expect someone who believes it's murder to be forced to dish it out.

Gay Marriage. Churches don't have to do the service. They can't and shouldn't be forced to do it. Now if you go to a JP and they are employed by the Province and province deems the marriage to be legal he/she has to do their job or look for a new one. They are paid to serve the public. Hence the name civil servant. Not Jesus Servant or Flying spaghetti monster servant, not mohommad's servant. Serve the public. If you don't like the terms of your employment, find a different job.

This I don't really agree with. There are other JP's that homosexuals can go to, they don't need to go to a Christian one who feels gay marriage is wrong. Other jobs bend for other religions ie RCMP wearing turbans, but it seems it is unreasonable to bend in this situation.

a

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

a

Your attempt would be better off with the Westboro crowd I think.

Its the whole n***ers ride in the back of the bus argument over again. If a JP has such a hard time with his religious convictions that he can not carry out his job serving the PUBLIC then he should find another job.

Sorry but I just don't buy the religious based hate and discrimination that is being put forth. Its just another form of discrimination. If someone is bothered by their conscience then they need to ask the hard questions about what they are doing.

You get hired to a job, do the job. Don't like it leave the job.