Conflict in Alberta's Wildrose party

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Your attempt would be better off with the Westboro crowd I think.

Its the whole n***ers ride in the back of the bus argument over again. If a JP has such a hard time with his religious convictions that he can not carry out his job serving the PUBLIC then he should find another job.

Sorry but I just don't buy the religious based hate and discrimination that is being put forth. Its just another form of discrimination. If someone is bothered by their conscience then they need to ask the hard questions about what they are doing.

You get hired to a job, do the job. Don't like it leave the job.

I'm not saying that people should be discriminated against based on skin color. It's not hatred to not want to perform a task because your religion forbids it. You seem bitter.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I am sorry you think 400 000+ people that voted WR are make believe. I try, but there is something about you I just can't fix.

Did I say people who voted WR are make-beilieve? Please quote where I said that. What did I originally say? That the old men of WR were out of touch with the majority here in Alberta, that the majority did not vote for WR and their social agenda. YOu disagree with that. Is 400,000 the majority of Alberta voters? PLEASE tell me you don't think 400,000 is a majority. Just answer that. I'm not avoiding the issue. That IS the issue. Did the majority support them? Yes or no? leave the insults, just give me a one word answer.

There's some things about you I can't fix either.... your intelligence, and the chip on your shoulder.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I'm not saying that people should be discriminated against based on skin color. It's not hatred to not want to perform a task because your religion forbids it. You seem bitter.

No you are saying that people should be discriminated against because of some perceived offense of your religious text. Be it abortion, or homosexuality or what ever you seem to be not talking about.

It doesn't seem to matter what anyone says it always comes back to christians thumping the bible. Sorry but these "issues" that you say you aren't bringing up have been challenged legally and ruled on. Case is closed.

I will go back and say again I support the WRP and Danni up to the point that they start talking about these conscience rights. Its a euphemism for religious bigotry.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

No you are saying that people should be discriminated against because of some perceived offense of your religious text. Be it abortion, or homosexuality or what ever you seem to be not talking about.

It doesn't seem to matter what anyone says it always comes back to christians thumping the bible. Sorry but these "issues" that you say you aren't bringing up have been challenged legally and ruled on. Case is closed.

I will go back and say again I support the WRP and Danni up to the point that they start talking about these conscience rights. Its a euphemism for religious bigotry.

I don't think people should be discriminated against. I don't think people should have to abandon their faith depending on what career they choose either, sorry.. oh well..

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Did I say people who voted WR are make-beilieve? Please quote where I said that. What did I originally say? That the old men of WR were out of touch with the majority here in Alberta, that the majority did not vote for WR and their social agenda. YOu disagree with that. Is 400,000 the majority of Alberta voters? PLEASE tell me you don't think 400,000 is a majority. Just answer that. I'm not avoiding the issue. That IS the issue. Did the majority support them? Yes or no? leave the insults, just give me a one word answer.

There's some things about you I can't fix either.... your intelligence, and the chip on your shoulder.

No oko you said

Originally Posted by oko

If WR keeps pandering to the haters, those that want a return to some british, white Canada of the 1950's, or those (some of them on this board) who wish Alberta was Texas-north, the party will be smashed in the face like the last time, every time.
Reply With Quote

They weren't smashed. It was a close election and the pc party won a majority of the seats. It wasn't a landslide.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I was talking about the the issue of conscience rights. Forcing a doctor or pharmacist or marriage commissioner to do something that is against their religion.

I get the concern. No one is forced to do these things tdi. They can choose not to get into those jobs. I've never heard of a doctor being forced to perform an abortion anyway, have you? Bit of a red herring I think.

So let's leave abortion, because the conscience rights position doesn't just specify abortion, it talks about ANY conscience right. So let's look at, say, education... Teacher doesn't want to teach the part of the curriculum that covers evolution. You OK with that? How about the Public school counsellor who doesn't want to deal with gay student unless he or she can let the kid know they are going to burn in hell. OK? A nurse who doesn't want to deal with gays or other sinners. Muslim hospital cafeteria worker who refuses to supply food to people who should be fasting on Muslim religious days (regardless of what the religion of that person is)... It can go on and on.

At some point we have to say "This is Canada, you took a taxpayer-paid job that requires you to do this, do it or resign."

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I get the concern. No one is forced to do these things tdi. They can choose not to get into those jobs. I've never heard of a doctor being forced to perform an abortion anyway, have you? Bit of a red herring I think.

So let's leave abortion, because the conscience rights position doesn't just specify abortion, it talks about ANY conscience right. So let's look at, say, education... Teacher doesn't want to teach the part of the curriculum that covers evolution. You OK with that? How about the Public school counsellor who doesn't want to deal with gay student unless he or she can let the kid know they are going to burn in hell. OK? A nurse who doesn't want to deal with gays or other sinners. Muslim hospital cafeteria worker who refuses to supply food to people who should be fasting on Muslim religious days (regardless of what the religion of that person is)... It can go on and on.

At some point we have to say "This is Canada, you took a taxpayer-paid job that requires you to do this, do it or resign."

I hear what you are saying. They are good points.

I still feel it's wrong, but what you say is valid.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

PLEASE tell me you don't think 400,000 is a majority. Just answer that. I'm not avoiding the issue. That IS the issue. Did the majority support them? Yes or no? leave the insults, just give me a one word answer.

Can we first define "majority"? To me I would assume we are talking about popular vote in Alberta. Not seat count. Under that assumption - No, 400 000 is not the majority. The P.C's did not reach a "majority" either.

There's some things about you I can't fix either.... your intelligence, and the chip on your shoulder.

Can you at least help me find a solution? I was thinking about a public sector job to help me with the chip, and perhaps a Bachelor of Arts degree to help me with my low intelligence. What do you think? Maybe it would help?

That's a lot of work... perhaps I should just resort to denying the existence of opinions contrary to my own. If somebody puts up a good fight that a contrary opinion does indeed exist, I will just indirectly call them bigots and insult their intelligence.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

No oko you said


They weren't smashed. It was a close election and the pc party won a majority of the seats. It wasn't a landslide.

LOL Aww come on D.O..... Nice attempt at Glen Beck bait and switch journalism there, but below is what he was quoting, not what you pulled up.

"Lemme clue you in on the democratic process Sneeze. WR got less votes than Redford and the conservatives... less support... they lost... You lost. Who reflects more Albertan's views? The PC party or the WR? I said the former, and unless you have some proof that the election was stolen and WR actually won, you can go back to your world of make-believe, thinking most people see the world like you do. They don't. You were given proof of that on April 23rd. Ya lost. You don't need to get over it, just get used to it. LOL "

A majority is a majority, a minority a minority. If you think you are going to win, you have the victory parade planned, and then the other party gets four times as many seats, that's pretty decisive, crushing, smashing... 61 seats to 17 seats. Ouch.

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

LOL Aww come on D.O..... Nice attempt at Glen Beck bait and switch journalism there, but below is what he was quoting, not what you pulled up.

"Lemme clue you in on the democratic process Sneeze. WR got less votes than Redford and the conservatives... less support... they lost... You lost. Who reflects more Albertan's views? The PC party or the WR? I said the former, and unless you have some proof that the election was stolen and WR actually won, you can go back to your world of make-believe, thinking most people see the world like you do. They don't. You were given proof of that on April 23rd. Ya lost. You don't need to get over it, just get used to it. LOL "

A majority is a majority, a minority a minority. If you think you are going to win, you have the victory parade planned, and then the other party gets four times as many seats, that's pretty decisive, crushing, smashing... 61 seats to 17 seats. Ouch.

Wasn't a bait and switch. Was a direct quote from you. That is what everyone is answering. You are the one reading things in to it. Admit what you posted in black and white was wrong. Just pointing out what YOU said and what others took exception too.

Yes by looking strictly at seats gained it was a huge win. But if you look closer at the numbers it wasn't a smashing, crushing, smashing. It was a close win in a lot of ways. In ways that if the current pc government doesn't change they may just be on the other side of the smashing.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

No, 400 000 is not the majority.

Thank you. That was all I was trying to get across. WR social policy is not supported by the majority.

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Can you at least help me find a solution? I was thinking about a public sector job to help me with the chip, and perhaps a Bachelor of Arts degree to help me with my low intelligence. What do you think? Maybe it would help?
.

I don't know Sneeze. I don't work in the public sector. I have to admit I'm sort of at a loss on this one. You're on your own there buddy. LOL

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

I still feel it's wrong, .

pssst... regarding abortion, so do I. I sympathize. I walked through a pro and anti abortion demonstration last week in Chicago and I'm clear which way I lean. But I just see a lot of chaos if we let civil servants individually decide what they will or won't do, and who they will or will not serve.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I don't know Sneeze. I don't work in the public sector. I have to admit I'm sort of at a loss on this one. You're on your own there buddy. LOL

I am still trying to rationalize how you think that 442 429 Albertan's that voted for the WR are not "urban, educated & open minded".

Lemme clue you in on the democratic process Oko. Representation by Population or Direct Representation does not exist in Canadian politics. In the make-believe world I live in, a true democratic Alberta would have a legislature composed very differently than the one we are experiencing today.

(edited for good sport)

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Given the age and different demographics of our physicians, I would guess a high precentage has taken the oath.

Your guess would be 100% wrong.

Let the hippocratic oath myth die.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

I am still trying to rationalize how you think that 442 429 Albertan's that voted for the WR are not "urban, educated & open minded".

I'm going to make this really simple. Here's what I said: "Anderson and the other old boys are out-of-touch with the majority of primarily urban, educated, open-minded Albertans". Please correct me then.. Did the MAJORITY of urban, educated, open-minded Albertans actually vote for WR? Let's check the urban ridings. How did WR do? I never said some WR supporters didn't fit that description. I said WR didn't attract the majority of those folks. If they had, we would be talking about Premier Smith.

Sneeze, try responding to what I actually say, not what you'd like me to say so you can better attack me.

[Redfrog]

Okie did the majority vote for the PC party? Do you even know what a majority is?

The majority of Alberta voters voted against the Pc as well as against the WR.

A majority is 50% plus one. No party got that. Unfortunately in Canada a plurality will put your party in office. so the one with the most votes, not necessarily a majority wins.

Call it what it is. There were more Albertans who hate Redford than like her.

[greylynx]

I recieved a phone call from the WR last Sunday. The party is far from dead.

The liberal media has been attacking Allison and ex skrool teacher Lukasick. Always good to see a coyote eat its own guts.

From the nervous rhetortic posted by liberals on this forum I think there is a real anxiety amongst the government civil servants who portray themselves as educated, urban, and better than any taxpayer who is raped in taxes to feed them.

Keep up the anti WP posts. It is alway good to find out what the enemy is thinking about.

[markg]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm going to make this really simple. Here's what I said: "Anderson and the other old boys are out-of-touch with the majority of primarily urban, educated, open-minded Albertans". Please correct me then.. Did the MAJORITY of urban, educated, open-minded Albertans actually vote for WR? Let's check the urban ridings. How did WR do? I never said some WR supporters didn't fit that description. I said WR didn't attract the majority of those folks. If they had, we would be talking about Premier Smith.

Sneeze, try responding to what I actually say, not what you'd like me to say so you can better attack me.

Well Oko i am a rural educated and hopefully somewhat intelligent WR supporter. I own a modestly sucessful business that employees several of my fellow Albertans. I put several hundred hours of time into the the last election and sit on a WR constituency board as a director. I dontated money to the cause as well. If Daniel Smith continues down this left wing liberal social path i will be pulling my support. Social Conservatives are not stupid bigoted or racist, we simply think differently then those on the left. Apparently this is a thought crime now. I think it is intellectually lazy to simply name call those that think differently then you do, debate the ideas and issues leave the name calling to those that dont have the wits for proper debate. I believe you are above that. You seem like a smart fellow. This critisim can be leveled at our side as well, just because someone thinks differently then we do doesnt mean we should start throughing around the ole "socialist, commie, labels either. We should win the arguement on strong ideas and merit. Just seems to me that both sides have gotten pretty lazy and find it easier to insult each other as compared to winning the hearts and minds of the electorate with there policies.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Okie did the majority vote for the PC party? Do you even know what a majority is?

The majority of Alberta voters voted against the Pc as well as against the WR.

A majority is 50% plus one. No party got that. Unfortunately in Canada a plurality will put your party in office. so the one with the most votes, not necessarily a majority wins.

Call it what it is. There were more Albertans who hate Redford than like her.

Well with only slightly more than 50% turnout its pretty much impossible for anyone to get 50 plus 1 and my thought is that if more Albertans hate Redford than like her they have a funny way of showing it.

I'm not saying that you might not be right... in fact...I suspect you are.
Its just that you'd think that if they couldn't be motivated to vote for someone... they'd at least show up to vote against someone they felt a strong resentment for.
Whats more... why didn't they turn out to vote Liberal if they hate both Redford and Smith?

I guess the fairest assessment based upon what we do know about the election is that the majority of Albertan voters...just don't give a crap.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by greylynx

From the nervous rhetortic posted by liberals on this forum I think there is a real anxiety amongst the government civil servants who portray themselves as educated, urban, and better than any taxpayer who is raped in taxes to feed them.

They got quite a scare last time. I think they blame us.

They also see the writing on the wall. The Taker Age is ending and no amount of homo-sexual, trans-sexual, sexual-sexual horn blaring will change that. It's got to be frustrating.

......next year, Jerusalem.

Keep up the anti WP posts. It is alway good to find out what the enemy is thinking about.

If they were thinking, they would not be opponents.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by markg

Well Oko i am a rural educated and hopefully somewhat intelligent WR supporter. I own a modestly sucessful business that employees several of my fellow Albertans. I put several hundred hours of time into the the last election and sit on a WR constituency board as a director. I dontated money to the cause as well. If Daniel Smith continues down this left wing liberal social path i will be pulling my support. Social Conservatives are not stupid bigoted or racist, we simply think differently then those on the left. Apparently this is a thought crime now...... Just seems to me that both sides have gotten pretty lazy and find it easier to insult each other as compared to winning the hearts and minds of the electorate with there policies.

x2.......except for the last bit. He's not above that, at all. It's where he lives. There's only one label that we should care about and it is "Statist". Whether left-wing or right-wing, they are the enemy. And no, it's not a question of equivalence. There is a right and there is a wrong in politics as well as in what we value and want to pass on. Those are not now, nor have they ever been, equivalent.

The WR belongs to US and that's that. It's in the constitution. If that promise fails and the fat lady signs, well,.....I was looking for a new political party when I found this one. Too many of us have woke up and are all done being run around by narrow-minded loudmouths and takers.

This is not about party loyalty and it is not about one person or one leader.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Your guess would be 100% wrong.

Let the hippocratic oath myth die.

You sound like your pretty sure, are you guessing or do you have something to base this on?

[Gust]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

That's right none, but with the musings of Danni that could all change, and as I said before Dr's will do everything they can to shield those that don't want to. But eventually someone is going to go after a Doc and insist that that particular Doc. has to do it. That needs to be looked at, nobodies trying to dig up the abortion debate again, just look after Drs. that won't do it.

Agh!!!!!

Analogy time and its been pointed out already; if you are a dr that specialises in weiner tucks, would you be offended if you were asked to tuck/cut more weiners? Regular docs/surgeons opposed , wiuldnt be called in for the procedure.

Cant wait till danni palin makes another remark like, oh I dint know, an alberta lgr and watch you all defend her.

Hypocrites

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Okie did the majority vote for the PC party? Do you even know what a majority is?

.

No they didn't. But I never said they did. Come on Red, I didn't expect that typical right wing, reactionary strategy from you. Make up what your opponent was purported to say, and then knock it down. LOL I said the WR position doesn't reflect the views of the majority of Albertans. That's an undisputed fact, the right wing revisionist pablum being out here to the contrary. In fact I even narrowed the group they didn't win to "primarily urban, educated, open-minded Albertans". Listening to Sneeze, WR won the election.

Bottom line, WR lost. Their positions were discredited by the majority. The majority of Albertans chose an option to the left of the WR position.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by greylynx

I recieved a phone call from the WR last Sunday. The party is far from dead.

And I recieved a phone call from a carpet cleaning company.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by markg

Well Oko i am a rural educated and hopefully somewhat intelligent WR supporter. .

So you're not in the demographic I was talking about. What's your point? It's like respoding to a statement that "Most blonde people are tall" by saying "well I have red hair and I'm tall!!!" Yeah? and?

[Redfrog]

"The majority of Albertans chose an option to the left of the WR position. "

Nice try, still don't fly.

The "majority" of the Albertans voters, voted against the PC party.
The "majority" of voters also voted against the WR and Libs and NDP.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

"The majority of Albertans chose an option to the left of the WR position. "

Nice try, still don't fly.

Still don't fly?
2012 total votes cast:1,290,223
Wild Rose vote :442,429
PC vote:567,060
Liberal vote:127,645
NDP vote:126,752
Total of major parties to left of WR: 821,457

821,457 is > 442,429. 821,457 constitutes a majority of 1,290,223.... unless you went to a Wildrose school apparently.

Man, this is like arguing with someone who contends that the sky is purple. A party loses an election. You make the comment that they didn't connect with or reflect the views of the majority, and you get denial. If they HAD connected and reflected, they would have WON. They didn't. Patent dishonesty or delusion at work on the part of some WR members here.

A more authentic answer might be "Yeah, we didn't connect with the majority and get their votes, but we will next time". I could respect that.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Listening to Sneeze, WR won the election.

Said previously :

Sneeze, try responding to what I actually say, not what you'd like me to say so you can better attack me.

Hmm... do as I say not as I do? Common now Oko

The WR didn't win the election. They also didn't get "smacked in the face".

The PC's took a majority of the seats because of the First Past the Post system. Not because the PC party reached a "Majority" as you are trying to imply.

Winning 13 seats seems like a small victory to me. To a PCer - loosing 13 seats, being the government in charge when an upstart right wing party recieved 34.3% popular vote & destroying core support by welcoming voters from the left seems to be a minor defeat. - Especially after 42 years of the status quo.

[riden]

It irritates the hell out of me listening to the libs/dippers/hippees crying about how Harper had the majority of Canadian votes against him, and doesn't really have a "real" majority government, with only 39% of the vote.

Now the WRPers here are doing the same thing. Everyone knows the rules, everyone designs party strategy around the rules, and after a 61-17 drubbing............it's only because of the rules now.

When the hippees do it they are whining, but when the WRPers do it.....I have noticed they don't see it the same way.