Why the 223 Rem should be a legal big game round

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

So. At 500 yds a .55gr .223 has about 220 ft/ibs of energy.
At 100yds my .22WMR has 300 ft/lbs of energy.
Sure not going moose hunting with it at any distance.
Nor should I.

[West O'5]

Theres no arguing that .223 is an "adequate" medium size game round with proper bullet placement...it will get the job done when the shot conditions are favorable.However,in the REAL WORLD where we hunt,conditions and shot angles are often less then ideal,and deer size game don't always pose broadside for slam dunk shot opps.
I don't care what other provinces/states allow,nor how many hundreds of thousands of deer have been taken in NA with.223,I think Alberta's got this one right......6mm/.243 as a minimum standard,nothing wrong with that.
Most(if not all?) provinces/states have minimum standards for bow draw weight and broadhead diameter.and nobody seems to get ruffled over that?
I'm the last person anybody should expect to see advocating for even further govt interference in our lives or Nanny state mentality,but the fact is,there really are ALOT of irresponsible/inexperienced/unethical hunters out there that actually need to be told and taught the most basic of values and ethics that more experienced Sportsmen might take for granted,and even more again that know little to nothing about the ballistics and terminal performance of the firearms they are toting.
Yes,bullet designs and wildcats and .224Valkyrie and blah blah blah have come along a longgggg way since the .223 Rem made its debut as a VARMINT CARTRIDGE.......and the Valkyrie is perhaps every bit the equal to .243 in terms of ballistics and terminal performance and arguably even better under certain parameters.......I don't care.The majority of the gun owning/huntng public IMHO doesn't know enough about such matters to make informed decisions in choosing a suitable smallbore deer cartridge.....period.

As a group,Sportsman are forever preaching ethics and the responsibility that we have to the game we pursue to ensure a quick/clean ethical kill.....and in the next breath,some of you same chronic preachers are on here espousing the virtues of a minimalist cartridge that leaves very little margin for error,and in fact while quite capable in the right hands under the right conditions and with critical bullet placement being essential,should be reserved for use by only the more experienced and advanced hunter/shooters.
Again,I think Alberta got this one right,and I have no problem wutsoever with a 6mm minimum,too many out there actually NEED such rules to save them from themselves....SIZE MATTERS.

[270person]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Theres no arguing that .223 is an "adequate" medium size game round with proper bullet placement...it will get the job done when the shot conditions are favorable.However,in the REAL WORLD where we hunt,conditions and shot angles are often less then ideal,and deer size game don't always pose broadside for slam dunk shot opps.
I don't care what other provinces/states allow,nor how many hundreds of thousands of deer have been taken in NA with.223,I think Alberta's got this one right......6mm/.243 as a minimum standard,nothing wrong with that.
Most(if not all?) provinces/states have minimum standards for bow draw weight and broadhead diameter.and nobody seems to get ruffled over that?
I'm the last person anybody should expect to see advocating for even further govt interference in our lives or Nanny state mentality,but the fact is,there really are ALOT of irresponsible/inexperienced/unethical hunters out there that actually need to be told and taught the most basic of values and ethics that more experienced Sportsmen might take for granted,and even more again that know little to nothing about the ballistics and terminal performance of the firearms they are toting.
Yes,bullet designs and wildcats and .224Valkyrie and blah blah blah have come along a longgggg way since the .223 Rem made its debut as a VARMINT CARTRIDGE.......and the Valkyrie is perhaps every bit the equal to .243 in terms of ballistics and terminal performance and arguably even better under certain parameters.......I don't care.The majority of the gun owning/huntng public IMHO doesn't know enough about such matters to make informed decisions in choosing a suitable smallbore deer cartridge.....period.

As a group,Sportsman are forever preaching ethics and the responsibility that we have to the game we pursue to ensure a quick/clean ethical kill.....and in the next breath,some of you same chronic preachers are on here espousing the virtues of a minimalist cartridge that leaves very little margin for error,and in fact while quite capable in the right hands under the right conditions and with critical bullet placement being essential,should be reserved for use by only the more experienced and advanced hunter/shooters.
Again,I think Alberta got this one right,and I have no problem wutsoever with a 6mm minimum,too many out there actually NEED such rules to save them from themselves....SIZE MATTERS.

Well said. I can't imagine the headaches created for officials if 22's were allowed. May very well be a perfectly good round for "some" game, but not for others. If it's made legal then you have to accept it'll be used for ALL.

Safer to just stay on the end that says this cal and up is acceptable to use for all.

[Norwest Alta]

Another chapter in the world according to Chuck.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Another chapter in the world according to Chuck.

I find it easier to never pick up the book, much less read it

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I find it easier to never pick up the book, much less read it

And yet you are. Funny.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by chuck

And yet you are. Funny.

Laughing.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Another chapter in the world according to Chuck.

There are a lot of guys here that certainly don’t think much of their shooting. Either that or insecure about a 12 year old girl shooting a whitetail with a 223.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Your experience and mine are obviously different .

Like I said, why use a .22 cal. when something a bit larger, more practical and more versatile can do the job fewer limitations. No head games there Bud.

The limitations are the same for any round. Use the proper bullet and shoot them somewhere the brain shuts off or leaks blood real fast. If you don't follow those rules nothing is practical.

The versatility of a .22 CF and a .243 are the same in any practical book. Great varmint/deer round.

This entire thing is a head game for anyone that doesn't have the actual experience to say yes or no. If you haven't, then your coffee shop jawing not giving advice. End of discussion.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I find it easier to never pick up the book, much less read it

Good advice. I will follow these words of wisdom. Thanks

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by rem338win

The limitations are the same for any round. Use the proper bullet and shoot them somewhere the brain shuts off or leaks blood real fast. If you don't follow those rules nothing is practical.

The versatility of a .22 CF and a .243 are the same in any practical book. Great varmint/deer round.

This entire thing is a head game for anyone that doesn't have the actual experience to say yes or no. If you haven't, then your coffee shop jawing not giving advice. End of discussion.

I sure as hell hope its the end. You're blowin smoke .. big time.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

There are a lot of guys here that certainly don’t think much of their shooting. Either that or insecure about a 12 year old girl shooting a whitetail with a 223.

Chuck .. your Gal can shoot. That's great, but she sure hasn't set a precedent and she hasn't intimidating anyone. Why not just accept it as it is, be deservingly proud of hers and your accomplishments and let it go at that. Bazillions of guys have sub-teen kids that shoot well.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Chuck .. your Gal can shoot. That's great, but she sure hasn't set a precedent and she hasn't intimidating anyone. Why not just accept it as it is, be deservingly proud of hers and your accomplishments and let it go at that. Bazillions of guys have sub-teen kids that shoot well.

I know they do. It’s the do nothing talk a good story adults that I’m worried about.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by rem338win

The limitations are the same for any round. Use the proper bullet and shoot them somewhere the brain shuts off or leaks blood real fast. If you don't follow those rules nothing is practical.

The versatility of a .22 CF and a .243 are the same in any practical book. Great varmint/deer round.

This entire thing is a head game for anyone that doesn't have the actual experience to say yes or no. If you haven't, then your coffee shop jawing not giving advice. End of discussion.

I'm positive that some people are convinced that animals are alienesque, somehow able to stop bullets and not die when shot in the vitals. I'm not sure what the cause is but I imagine buck fever leading to poor marksmanship has led to some less than stellar results in the field.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I'm positive that some people are convinced that animals are alienesque, somehow able to stop bullets and not die when shot in the vitals. I'm not sure what the cause is but I imagine buck fever leading to poor marksmanship has led to some less than stellar results in the field.

It you're as positive about some of your other ideas and imaginations as you are about the above rambling, you should have no problem understanding where I've been coming from. The air must be pretty thin up there where you parked yourself. Give it a break.

[Suzukisam]

Why try invent the wheel. People are losing hunting rights all over the world and we want to argue to change the laws. What h out what you ask for it is a give and take society. You may have to give up large to get them to change those regs and they won’t just be looking at one aspect. The laws are always written for the majority not the minority. And the majority would have a hard time with an ethical consistent kill ratio. That’s why the minimum caliber is set where it is. The same could be said with using to big a caliber. Some would probably use a 50 bmg on deer. Both that’s a whole different subject. Just be content that you can take your children into the great outdoors and can still hunt. Lots of great small calibers to chose from already comply with existing regulations

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

It you're as positive about some of your other ideas and imaginations as you are about the above rambling, you should have no problem understanding where I've been coming from. The air must be pretty thin up there where you parked yourself. Give it a break.

Salavee, I'm afraid you're stuck where you're coming from. You speak matter of factly on things you clearly haven't got a clue about. Last week the Creedmoor wasn't big enough, now you're suggesting one should use something suitable like a 243 or a 6mm.

Thin air up here? Maybe, but seriously, you haven't got a clue. After seeing a deer drop like it was hit with the hammer of Thor from a ruger 204, I have no doubt a 223 or 22-250 will have the exact same effect.

[Digger1]

My youngest asked to run the little .243 Savage Ladyhunter when she was 9. So i supervised her in loading her own reduced loads and she went from there with great success. Maybe we should get a .223 just because we don't have one yet. It would be fun at reasonable range, but not my first choice for open country deer.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Salavee, I'm afraid you're stuck where you're coming from. You speak matter of factly on things you clearly haven't got a clue about. Last week the Creedmoor wasn't big enough, now you're suggesting one should use something suitable like a 243 or a 6mm.

Thin air up here? Maybe, but seriously, you haven't got a clue. After seeing a deer drop like it was hit with the hammer of Thor from a ruger 204, I have no doubt a 223 or 22-250 will have the exact same effect.

Your Thor Hammers are getting smaller all the time . Enjoy your trip.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Your Thor Hammers are getting smaller all the time . Enjoy your trip.

Not my choice in hammers, just have a grasp on reality. I don't think it's anyone's intention to go on a grizzly hunt with a 223, but I'm not so foolish to think the bullets will bounce off a deer.

How far you think a deer will go with a hole punched through the lungs? If someone isn't patient enough, is proned to buck fever, or hasn't got enough self control to wait for a proper shot than sticking with a big gun is obviously a good idea, but for those who have the self control and patients to pick their shots, a 223 will most definitely do the job.

I respect your decision to stick with a big gun but you're painting all hunters based on your skill set, fortunately not all hunters are the same.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by 270person

Well said. I can't imagine the headaches created for officials if 22's were allowed. May very well be a perfectly good round for "some" game, but not for others. If it's made legal then you have to accept it'll be used for ALL.

Safer to just stay on the end that says this cal and up is acceptable to use for all.

It’s actually not that bad. We don’t have a minimum caliber restriction in Montana and t hasn’t caused any extra work for wardens. In Wyoming depending on what animal your hunting they have different caliber restrictions. Once again not that hard to deal with. Apparently some on here who think they are the end all be all about ethics ballistics and wildlife management know better than everyone else who deals with this for a living. What the hell do I know, oh wait as Cat said they’re proven all over the world in other places but apparently Alberta deer are supernatural...

This thread is way past a waste of time with all the asinine comments going back and forth. It’s simple, if you don’t want to use one don’t, in Alberta’s case it’s ilegal so that’s a simple solution. Before you poopoo something you’ve never had experience with (hunting deer with a .223) maybe go somewhere you can or watch a few hunting videos where they do it. With proper bullet selection a .223 is a great deer killer within its limitations.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

It’s actually not that bad. We don’t have a minimum caliber restriction in Montana and t hasn’t caused any extra work for wardens. In Wyoming depending on what animal your hunting they have different caliber restrictions. Once again not that hard to deal with. Apparently some on here who think they are the end all be all about ethics ballistics and wildlife management know better than everyone else who deals with this for a living. What the hell do I know, oh wait as Cat said they’re proven all over the world in other places but apparently Alberta deer are supernatural...

This thread is way past a waste of time with all the asinine comments going back and forth. It’s simple, if you don’t want to use one don’t, in Alberta’s case it’s ilegal so that’s a simple solution. Before you poopoo something you’ve never had experience with (hunting deer with a .223) maybe go somewhere you can or watch a few hunting videos where they do it. With proper bullet selection a .223 is a great deer killer within its limitations.

Always a qualifier with the .223 isn't there ?. Sure, just watch a few more video's and it will be good to 500 yds. or so. Problem is, if they were permitted for use on Big Game here, I think most are aware of where it will go from that point. This very thread is an indication. We are already down to a .204 that has been used already. Nothing Supernatural, just Human behavior ... somebody always has to try and prove a point.

Need to shoot a deer with a .223 or .22-250 to know what the're all about ? I don't think so.. nor do a lot of others.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Always a qualifier with the .223 isn't there ?. Sure, just watch a few more video's and it will be good to 500 yds. or so. Problem is, if they were permitted for use on Big Game here, I think most are aware of where it will go from that point. This very thread is an indication. We are already down to a .204 that has been used already. Nothing Supernatural, just Human behavior ... somebody always has to try and prove a point.

Need to shoot a deer with a .223 or .22-250 to know what the're all about ? I don't think so.. nor do a lot of others.

Salable, honest question here, but what is your actual big game hunting experience?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

I know they do. It’s the do nothing talk a good story adults that I’m worried about.

Don't worry about them. They can probably hold their own and some might surprise the hell out of you.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by chuck

Salable, honest question here, but what is your actual big game hunting experience?

It's rare in life when you get the chance to come across someone who is so self centered they refuse to accept actual proof over their personal feelings.

Salavee, I think the air up here is thick compared to where you see yourself sitting.

[BigJon]

In other other provinces and states I have used and seen used .222, .223, and .22-250’s for antelope and deer. No drama, just dented primers and dead animals to process. Bullets weren’t even of the controlled expansion variety.

I am in favour of .22 CF being allowed for big game hunting in Alberta.

Hell, I weigh as much as the average adult buck deer and I sure wouldn’t want to try and catch a bullet fired from a .223 rifle even at 500 yards.

Funny how the folks that have done and can do are OK with the idea yet those that haven’t done take exception to it.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

Salable, honest question here, but what is your actual big game hunting experience?

That's not a subject I choose to talk about, but I have more than enough to
keep up to you and a few others on here. Honest !

[wally338]

I will be using my MV for deer this year, can't wait for all the dirty looks

[Norwest Alta]

I got no doubt that the 223 is capable. The problem is how do you stop people from using it beyond its capabilities. Kurt has a 300 yard limit on his new whatchamacallit. The guys hunting with the smaller guns gonna put the same limitations on themselves? Probably not. They'll see their booner fork horn at 600 and have a go at it. What happens when they see that elk out there in the field?

Where does the legal limations start and stop? Can only use a 223 from 0-150 yards on deer and antelope? Can only use a 223 on deer and antelope?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

It’s actually not that bad. We don’t have a minimum caliber restriction in Montana and t hasn’t caused any extra work for wardens. In Wyoming depending on what animal your hunting they have different caliber restrictions. Once again not that hard to deal with. Apparently some on here who think they are the end all be all about ethics ballistics and wildlife management know better than everyone else who deals with this for a living. What the hell do I know, oh wait as Cat said they’re proven all over the world in other places but apparently Alberta deer are supernatural...

This thread is way past a waste of time with all the asinine comments going back and forth. It’s simple, if you don’t want to use one don’t, in Alberta’s case it’s ilegal so that’s a simple solution. Before you poopoo something you’ve never had experience with (hunting deer with a .223) maybe go somewhere you can or watch a few hunting videos where they do it. With proper bullet selection a .223 is a great deer killer within its limitations.

X2

The tool is adequate and efficient, so like all tools you allow it and those who use outside of limitations are self trained, just like any other caliber we can choose from. Not sure why people get worried about these things?

Chuck, in the meantime, possible to re-barrel that savage to 6.5 grendel? I mean i'm sure it is, but what about the magazine? Any way to use 7.62x39 mag or what have you? Save that .223 barrel of course.