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02-04-2013, 09:05 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Okotoks wilderness
Posts: 4,420
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Trans Canada Pipeline
What are your thoughts on using existing pipeline .NB premier here
To discuss piping to NB ....refine and ship from there.
Is this just a power play to shake things up...
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02-04-2013, 02:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canmore
Posts: 4,752
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I like the idea of keeping the refinery jobs in Canada - anywhere in Canada.
Under-utilized existing pipelines and under-utilized N.B. refineries, what's not to like?
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The world is changed by your action, not by your opinion.
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02-04-2013, 02:26 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 2,680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper
I like the idea of keeping the refinery jobs in Canada - anywhere in Canada.
Under-utilized existing pipelines and under-utilized N.B. refineries, what's not to like?
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x2,seems like a win win to me.BC will probably be whining though cause they wont get a piece of Albertas pie.
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02-04-2013, 03:09 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: West of North South
Posts: 2,367
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Too bad the Irving Family didn't set up shop years ago in Alberta instead of New Brunswick.
The "family" would own and run the province instead of lackeys for the multinational oil companies.
Jim
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02-04-2013, 03:19 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In the shadow of the Valhalla Mountains, BC .
Posts: 9,175
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From oilsands to refinery ... works for me!
The Irving refinery in Saint John NB is the largest refinery in Canada, but right now most of the oil it refines is foreign sourced ... http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/po...064/story.html
Should have done this years ago!
TF
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02-04-2013, 05:21 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimPS
Too bad the Irving Family didn't set up shop years ago in Alberta instead of New Brunswick.
The "family" would own and run the province instead of lackeys for the multinational oil companies.
Jim |
Always thought of the Irwins as the last of the old time Robber Barons.  Don't think they would be good for us Albertans.
Grizz
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"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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02-04-2013, 05:43 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: edmonton
Posts: 1,428
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Importing foreign oil actually has a negative effect on canadas economy....
We export a bit more oil than we use in total, BUT we actually consume more foreign oil than we use domestic oil. If that makes any sense?
We sell the large majority of our oil for 75$ and in the mean time import almost half that volume of oil at 110$ barrel for foreign oil.
Not only do we through a good 40-60$ per barrel out the window buying foreign barrels... We loose the domestic shipping revenue, We also have to run up our trade deficit buying us dollars to buy foreign oil and we loose the jobs that could have been created.
Eastern Canada is another market to sell to, they could gobble up an easy 700 000+ barrels a day.... Bitumin going east would also mean more upgrading in Canada.
Irving and the refinerys etc in Montreal already have terminals for unloading.... You imagine the profits that could be reaped selling gasoline to Europe etc?
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02-04-2013, 05:53 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rycroft
Posts: 21,548
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Thank's for the link .... Trigger !!!
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02-04-2013, 06:01 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 12,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Always thought of the Irwins as the last of the old time Robber Barons. Don't think they would be good for us Albertans.
Grizz |
My neighbor from PEI talks about the Irwins like they were the devils themselves.
Is Robber Baron correct?
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02-04-2013, 06:02 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In the shadow of the Valhalla Mountains, BC .
Posts: 9,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb356
Thank's for the link .... Trigger !!!
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TF 
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02-04-2013, 06:08 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rycroft
Posts: 21,548
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Being doin it for 30 some odd year's !!! 
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02-04-2013, 06:35 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Always thought of the Irwins as the last of the old time Robber Barons. Don't think they would be good for us Albertans.
Grizz |
A lot of guys out East have a very negative opinion of the Irving's. Apparantly getting paid for contract work for them was not a pleasant or quick process. One guy said he'd push his car to next station before he'd gas up at an Irving one.
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Pacifists exist at the pleasure of the more aggressive, or by the sacrifices made by the less passive.
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02-04-2013, 07:25 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greylynx
My neighbor from PEI talks about the Irwins like they were the devils themselves.
Is Robber Baron correct?
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PEI still has ancient laws on the books on land ownership and leasing. I think 100 acres max is all you can own, but don't qoute me. Islanders are terrified of big guys "from away" buying up the Island, and support these stupid laws because of it.
My inlaws hate them too. Dipper logic.
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02-04-2013, 07:56 PM
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Calgary
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IMO it's a win-win to have the NB Premier here in AB. Either we get the pipeline to NB, or our "friends" to the west get a wake up call and start to realize that they're going to lose a lot of money. Either pipeline will help to alleviate the price differential we're currently getting hosed by.
I'd rather see the pipeline to the east and the oil refined in Canada. Yeah, the Irvings own the refinery, but at the end of the day the Canadian oil gets refined in Canada. Lots of Canadian jobs for a lonnnng time. It's certainly something the Maritimes and Canada could benefit from.
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02-04-2013, 08:13 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Red Deer, AB
Posts: 158
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Need help
I'm sorry, I do not understand the ins and outs of the oil industry, but I am very interested in learning the economics of it. Could someone help me with my question? Why doesn't Alberta build a refinery and start shipping finished products? Kind of like BC shipping raw timber to the world instead of finished lumber. Look at the missing revenues, added jobs, and larger tax base, etc.
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Someday man will be standing, staring over a wasteland, and wonder, "How did it all get this way?"
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02-04-2013, 08:15 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivegonefishing
I'm sorry, I do not understand the ins and outs of the oil industry, but I am very interested in learning the economics of it. Could someone help me with my question? Why doesn't Alberta build a refinery and start shipping finished products? Kind of like BC shipping raw timber to the world instead of finished lumber. Look at the missing revenues, added jobs, and larger tax base, etc.
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I think it is as simple as lack of workers to do it.
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02-04-2013, 08:17 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Quesnel BC Canada
Posts: 5,599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivegonefishing
I'm sorry, I do not understand the ins and outs of the oil industry, but I am very interested in learning the economics of it. Could someone help me with my question? Why doesn't Alberta build a refinery and start shipping finished products? Kind of like BC shipping raw timber to the world instead of finished lumber. Look at the missing revenues, added jobs, and larger tax base, etc.
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Profits in Canada are taxed higher than they are in China.
Workers are paid more in Canada than they are in china.
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02-04-2013, 08:17 PM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lougheed,Ab.
Posts: 12,736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riden
I think it is as simple as lack of workers to do it.
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Nope, at todays construction costs and the margin on refineries, no one will spend 750-m to 1b to build one. A lot cheaper to upgrade existing ones, and you're not dealing with NIMBY's and Suzuki wanna be's
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The future ain't what it used to be - Yogi Berra
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02-04-2013, 08:20 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal53
Nope, at todays construction costs and the margin on refineries, no one will spend 750-m to 1b to build one. A lot cheaper to upgrade existing ones, and you're not dealing with NIMBY's and Suzuki wanna be's
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That's my take on it as well, between the cost to build and the environmental assessment process, it's not economically viable.
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Pacifists exist at the pleasure of the more aggressive, or by the sacrifices made by the less passive.
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02-04-2013, 08:36 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 5,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winch101
What are your thoughts on using existing pipeline .NB premier here
To discuss piping to NB ....refine and ship from there.
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Nope.
Alberta's been bled, and sometimes pillaged, by the East for decades. We should not give them one iota more power to control us.
In fact, if a referendum ever comes up in this Province.....
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"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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02-04-2013, 08:41 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 5,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivegonefishing
I'm sorry, I do not understand the ins and outs of the oil industry, but I am very interested in learning the economics of it. Could someone help me with my question? Why doesn't Alberta build a refinery and start shipping finished products?
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1. Pipelining crude and pipelining 50 different grades and formulations of gasoline are very different propositions.
2. Refineries cost "B" money.
3. There are refineries already built elsewhere that want heavy crude.
4. Why would we refine oil and thus necessarily produce more demonic gases in this province, knowing the East would use that to take our oil revenues? Remember the Liberal "Green Shift" plan during the Dion era? That's what it was.
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"If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?'" - J.W.
God made man. Sam Colt made them equal.
Make Alberta a better place. Have your liberal spayed or neutered.
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02-04-2013, 08:44 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky7
Nope.
Alberta's been bled, and sometimes pillaged, by the East for decades. We should not give them one iota more power to control us.
In fact, if a referendum ever comes up in this Province.....
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How has the pipeline to Sarnia worked for Alberta ?
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02-04-2013, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: South West Alberta
Posts: 804
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Most of the oil companies in Alberta are foreign owned mainly from the USA. The real money being made now is buy share holders of companies such as Interpipe (IPL.UN), EnBridge, Plains All American (PAA),,etc that ship our oil south to US refineries. We have a glut of oil that we cannot move to other markets but the USA and we are getting screwed selling our oil at a discount price. We need the Gateway Pipeline to Kitimat BC to access world markets to get a better price for oil, this needs to be a top priority to get this pipeline built before the Keystone Pipeline into the USA. A pipeline to Eastern Canada would be a benefit to.
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02-04-2013, 09:23 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimPS
Too bad the Irving Family didn't set up shop years ago in Alberta instead of New Brunswick.
The "family" would own and run the province instead of lackeys for the multinational oil companies.
Jim |
The Irving family is the worst thing that ever happened to New Brunswick, and is the entire reason that the province is an economic disaster. That family has brick by brick destroyed the province. Want to know why so many New Brunswickers live in Alberta now? Because Irving fleeced damn near every tradesman from the province of his job. Irving damn near bankrupted my family, and tens of thousands of others as well. It worked out for us in the end because Alberta is the greatest place in the world to live and I'd never dream of leaving, but getting that *****hat out here would be the absolute worst thing this province could ever do.
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02-04-2013, 09:27 PM
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Fort McMurray
Posts: 2,139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper
I like the idea of keeping the refinery jobs in Canada - anywhere in Canada.
Under-utilized existing pipelines and under-utilized N.B. refineries, what's not to like?
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Irvings. You have no idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimPS
Too bad the Irving Family didn't set up shop years ago in Alberta instead of New Brunswick.
The "family" would own and run the province instead of lackeys for the multinational oil companies.
Jim |
You'd see near minimum wage trades jobs and the top guys reaping all the money and living officially in the Caribbean taking the taxable income with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Always thought of the Irwins as the last of the old time Robber Barons. Don't think they would be good for Alberta. Grizz |
Irving family owned 10% of privately held land in NB as of 92 and employed 12% of the work force. That number has done nothing but increase. That also doesn't include their cavendish island holding on PEI, nor their holdings in NS, nor the fact that in 2000 they were the largest private land holder in the state of Maine. My grandfather's old hunting lands (now my father's and eventually mine) are right next to Irving land. Not good neighbours.
My other grandfather's lands (family owned for about 125 years)are butting up against the old oil hills in albert county. Seems Irving's been poking around there lately which has the family worried. Things that the Irvings want tends to become their's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greylynx
My neighbor from PEI talks about the Irwins like they were the devils themselves.
Is Robber Baron correct?
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Your neighbour was being kind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
A lot of guys out East have a very negative opinion of the Irving's. Apparantly getting paid for contract work for them was not a pleasant or quick process. One guy said he'd push his car to next station before he'd gas up at an Irving one.
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NB law requires payment on contract work be dated by the thirtieth day. Pay by cheque, date and post date within thirty days and you can easily get forty to forty five days before you pay. That's business as usual.
Want a job within the Irving family of companies? Apply to protrans, their temp agency. It feeds all their companies from midland to Kent's building supplies, to their refineries .... Everything. Funny thing is, making that jump from "temp" to full time seems to elude a lot of people leaving them without benefits or job security.
As for Irving fuel, about four or five years ago, it was determined that for at least a year, they were accidentally selling base grade mistakenly mislabelled as premium fuel due to a faulty valve at the refinery in Saint John. Make your own conclusions. Irving noted that they weren't sure how long that had been going on. I just know that certain engines I owned that required premium never ran right on Irving premium. Kinda ran like they were on some low octane garbage.
Edit: my wife asked me what I was typing. I told her Irving's. the air is now blue. She still hasn't stopped swearing.
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If you're reading this, why aren't you in the woods?
Stupidity is taxable and sometimes I get to be the collector.
Last edited by Mekanik; 02-04-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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02-04-2013, 09:39 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2008
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We have let too many raw resources be sold off to international interests (Lumber, Oil/Gas, etc). Time to to get full value for our product no matter how much our politicians are in the pockets of out of country business/government.
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Respecting the land, water, fish, and wildlife is what makes true hunters and fishermen.
Road hunting is not hunting.
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02-04-2013, 10:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canmore
Posts: 4,752
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It's easy enough to find haters for every successful Canadian province, company, family or even individual. Even successful hunters and anglers get crucified on this forum!!
Haters gunna hate - but I'd still like to see our raw resources refined in-country, and if the hypocrites to the west of us don't want to play, then Quebec or N.B. is most welcome to.
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The world is changed by your action, not by your opinion.
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02-04-2013, 10:07 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,418
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Call me crazy, but I can't see how a pipeline from here to NB could be cheaper than a refinery. A similar length of piping perhaps, but way less land, excavating and environmental assesments. By the sounds of the suggestions, this proposal is likely an Irving concept, and not likely good for most Canadians based on the reputaion of that lot.
One would think that we could get a few big investors on board to build one here, some pension funds and/or a publically traded company purpose-built for the venture.
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"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
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02-04-2013, 10:20 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Red Deer
Posts: 4,257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
Call me crazy, but I can't see how a pipeline from here to NB could be cheaper than a refinery. A similar length of piping perhaps, but way less land, excavating and environmental assesments. By the sounds of the suggestions, this proposal is likely an Irving concept, and not likely good for most Canadians based on the reputaion of that lot.
One would think that we could get a few big investors on board to build one here, some pension funds and/or a publically traded company purpose-built for the venture.
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The pipeline is already in the ground...the talk is of converting the existing natural gas line to oil...its been talked about as one more option for a couple of years now.
The refining business is not as profitable as you would think, if it were they would be building them...
Last edited by blackpheasant; 02-04-2013 at 10:35 PM.
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02-04-2013, 10:31 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: In the shadow of the Valhalla Mountains, BC .
Posts: 9,175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
Call me crazy, but I can't see how a pipeline from here to NB could be cheaper than a refinery. A similar length of piping perhaps, but way less land, excavating and environmental assesments. By the sounds of the suggestions, this proposal is likely an Irving concept, and not likely good for most Canadians based on the reputaion of that lot.
One would think that we could get a few big investors on board to build one here, some pension funds and/or a publically traded company purpose-built for the venture.
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My thoughts ^ exactly, but truth be known ... "Just days ago, federal Natural Resources Minister Joe Oliver said in an interview with The Canadian Press that he tentatively endorsed a proposal that would see TransCanada Corp. convert a natural gas line to one that could carry Alberta’s oil to Quebec and New Brunswick, where the Irving refinery operates in Saint John"
Full article ... http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/po...064/story.html
If all goes well, this could be a 'win/win' situation for all of Canada.
TF
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