Is the Edmonton Arena Deal Done?

[AxeMan]

I am sure having a hard time understanding the the bs coming out of both the Katz Group and Edmonton City Council (or should I say Mandel) on the arena deal.

As I understand the deal as it is now:

1. The current framework would see a $450-million arena built downtown beside 104th Avenue.

2. Katz would pay make yearly $5.7-million payments to cover $100 million of the construction cost plus interest.

3. A ticket tax would pay $125 million.

4. The city would contribute $125 million from taxes on future construction and other sources (scary).

5. The remaining $100 million is hoped to be provided by the provincial government, although that funding hasn’t been committed yet.

6. Katz would keep all the revenues from the building and pay all operating, repairs and maintenance costs.



Okay, here are the top questions that come to mind as a tax payer in Edmonton:

1. Katz: "To achieve these goals, I have been prepared to invest upwards of $250 million to help build an arena that the City of Edmonton would own …"

He keeps talking about his $250 mil commitment when he is actually only contributing $100 mil over many years. What am I missing here? Is he counting the ticket tax as his money?

2. The province certainly has not commited the $100 mil and is an ever growing deficet situation. This is infrastructure tagged money anyways. Should it go to an arena where the all the profits have been signed off to Mr. Katz? I think not.

3. Why won't this guy negotiate in front of our city council when he wants public money invested in his private franchise? Now he wants to bring Bettman in again....lol. Bettman does not represent any public money so I can't see his contribution.

4. How much money has the public already contributed? Land, architect, public transit access, etc.

5. Katz: "I have also been prepared to invest over $1 billion in a private sector development..."

Katz: "Lest anyone question my commitment to the arena or to this development, I have already invested $70 million towards realization of the private sector development through land purchases and extensive design and other work..."

Do you think any other private franchise companies might want a piece of the arena district? Sports bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. I think they wouldn't bitch about the investment opportunity.

So, what do you guys think about the deal? Is it dead? What do you think about the Katz group demands? Is the City of Edmonton handling this correctly?

[hal53]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

I am sure having a hard time understanding the the bs coming out of both the Katz Group and Edmonton City Council (or should I say Mandel) on the arena deal.

As I understand the deal as it is now:

1. The current framework would see a $450-million arena built downtown beside 104th Avenue.

2. Katz would pay make yearly $5.7-million payments to cover $100 million of the construction cost plus interest.

3. A ticket tax would pay $125 million.

4. The city would contribute $125 million from taxes on future construction and other sources (scary).

5. The remaining $100 million is hoped to be provided by the provincial government, although that funding hasn’t been committed yet.

6. Katz would keep all the revenues from the building and pay all operating, repairs and maintenance costs.



Okay, here are the top questions that come to mind as a tax payer in Edmonton:

1. Katz: "To achieve these goals, I have been prepared to invest upwards of $250 million to help build an arena that the City of Edmonton would own …"

He keeps talking about his $250 mil commitment when he is actually only contributing $100 mil over many years. What am I missing here? Is he counting the ticket tax as his money?

2. The province certainly has not commited the $100 mil and is an ever growing deficet situation. This is infrastructure tagged money anyways. Should it go to an arena where the all the profits have been signed off to Mr. Katz? I think not.

3. Why won't this guy negotiate in front of our city council when he wants public money invested in his private franchise? Now he wants to bring Bettman in again....lol. Bettman does not represent any public money so I can't see his contribution.

4. How much money has the public already contributed? Land, architect, public transit access, etc.

5. Katz: "I have also been prepared to invest over $1 billion in a private sector development..."

Katz: "Lest anyone question my commitment to the arena or to this development, I have already invested $70 million towards realization of the private sector development through land purchases and extensive design and other work..."

Do you think any other private franchise companies might want a piece of the arena district? Sports bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. I think they wouldn't bitch about the investment opportunity.

So, what do guys think about the deal? Is it dead? What do you think about the Katz group demands? Is the City of Edmonton handling this correctly?

you have a business man (Katz) dealing with a land developer/slum landlord (Mandel)...how do you think it's going to go??

[Pep]

add to Hal's comment "politician who is enthralled with his legacy" as well. Of course Mandell wants to negotiate in chambers... because he wants to turn this fully political and negotiate in the media. Katz (don't get me wrong I am not a Daryl Katz fan for other reasons) is a smart (read the word smart as you may but he isn't rich by being stupid) business man who know you NEVER negotiate in public nor do you negotiate with politicians as a rule. He wants to negotiate with staff who know WTF they may be talking about.

[hal53]

....through all this, it is eerily quiet on the city center airport re- development that Mandel has been pushing so hard for????
you don't think a downtown re-development would take away from that , do you??.....hmmmm...

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by hal53

....through all this, it is eerily quiet on the city center airport re- development that Mandel has been pushing so hard for????
you don't think a downtown re-development would take away from that , do you??.....hmmmm...

Naw, I doubt that would slow Mandel down for a second. There are no limits to how much money a true liberal can spend and raise taxes and create debt.

Back to the arena. I still think all this latest bickering between Katz and Mandel is all scripted. It can't be seen by the public and the naive city council that Katz feels like he is getting a good deal. Wanna bet that Katz quote comes true: "It is always darkest before the dawn". Just a litlle for-shadowing to the already written story.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Naw, I doubt that would slow Mandel down for a second. There are no limits to how much money a true liberal can spend and raise taxes and create debt.

Back to the arena. I still think all this latest bickering between Katz and Mandel is all scripted. It can't be seen by the public and the naive city council that Katz feels like he is getting a good deal. Wanna bet that Katz quote comes true: "It is always darkest before the dawn". Just a litlle for-shadowing to the already written story.

The point was , Mandel is elbow deep in the land for the city center airport, if Katz had said "let's use the airport land", the arena would be half built by now....

[Kanonfodder]

5.7 over 35 years is close to 200 million plus the land costs etc, all while the city owns the building not Katz, this is just a step in the process

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

5.7 over 35 years is close to 200 million plus the land costs etc, all while the city owns the building not Katz, this is just a step in the process

Kanon, as I understand and everything I have read suggests that is not the deal though. He has only agreed to pay the 5.7 mil installments up to 100 mil with interest. The 35 year thing is the time frame he has agreed to keep the team in Edmonton. Prove me wrong....I have read everything I could find and that is what it suggests.

And on top of that he now wants a $6 mil a year operating concession from the city! laughable.

[Kanonfodder]

My understanding is he pays "rent" of 5.7 per yr I will also look, the upkeep is hardly laughable he doesn't own the building....if you run a construction company in a industrial strip mall and the furnace craps out or the plumbing fails, do you not yell at the landlord to come fix it? If snow piles up in the parking lot is it not the landlords responsibility? So why exactly should the guy who rents ave to pay upkeep on a building he doesn't own?

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by Kanonfodder

My understanding is he pays "rent" of 5.7 per yr I will also look, the upkeep is hardly laughable he doesn't own the building....if you run a construction company in a industrial strip mall and the furnace craps out or the plumbing fails, do you not yell at the landlord to come fix it? If snow piles up in the parking lot is it not the landlords responsibility? So why exactly should the guy who rents ave to pay upkeep on a building he doesn't own?

Do the math. Pays rent @ 5.7 mil/year (with a cap of $100 mil) and gets ALL revenues. Gets 6 mil/year in operating concessions (his idea). That is a profit of 0.3 mil/year before any revenues are even considered. That is like getting paid to rent. Ya, the operating cost will be higher than that but the revenues will be huge. You see how his rent doesn't add up.

The deal has him investing $100 mil in a building that he will have exclusive rights to all the revenue it generates (not only hockey) for 35 years. That $100 mil investment would be offset by (6 mil x 35 year = 210 mil) in operating cost allowances. I wouldn't want to own the darn building if I was a company and got a deal like that.

BTW, he didn't pay for the land either. The city has more than $100 mil invested in that too. Look it up.

No wonder he is a billionaire!

Good article on Katz latest ridiculous 6 mil/year demand:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4617053/

This article gives a bit more insight on the latest changed deal by Katz that we are not worthy of seeing in front of council. With the 6 mil/year of operating allowance it appears he is willing to pay 5.5 mil over 35 years. Great deal...for him.

[buckmaster]

Originally Posted by hal53

The point was , Mandel is elbow deep in the land for the city center airport, if Katz had said "let's use the airport land", the arena would be half built by now....

Lol, mandel doesnt own any airport land but sure owns a few properties where the arena is proposed to be.

[Kanonfodder]

Axe ask yourself if the deal is so great why doesn't the city build it and just lease it to Katz then? Edmonton stands to make 1.6 billion witha B off the CLR, so why not invest 500 million in an arena district? Still leaves a lot of profit, but Katz is vilified

[AxeMan]

Wow another great twist....lol. I never said the new arena plan was anywhere near a good deal exept for Katz who was basically getting what you hypothetically proposed anyways. Let Edmonton build it and let him lease it....lol. Kind of what he was asking for but his lease would be basically free. Katz would never pay what it would be worth in a fair and equitable deal between him and the public.

As for all the downtown revitalization and projected profits, bit of a pipe dream if you ask me. Investment and development I am in favor of but the numbers have to add up.

Sounds like it is all over now anyways. I don't know what the answer is here but it was a crappy deal for the Edmonton public.

Did you hear the talk from Bill Comrie today? Let Katz leave this town.

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by buckmaster

Lol, mandel doesnt own any airport land but sure owns a few properties where the arena is proposed to be.

Let us put it this way. Mandel is the tallest hog at the trough, and is the Edmonton mayor to boot.

Mandel is a lawyer who specialzes in land development.

facts.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Wow another great twist....lol. I never said the new arena plan was anywhere near a good deal exept for Katz who was basically getting what you hypothetically proposed anyways. Let Edmonton build it and let him lease it....lol. Kind of what he was asking for but his lease would be basically free. Katz would never pay what it would be worth in a fair and equitable deal between him and the public.

As for all the downtown revitalization and projected profits, bit of a pipe dream if you ask me. Investment and development I am in favor of but the numbers have to add up.

Sounds like it is all over now anyways. I don't know what the answer is here but it was a crappy deal for the Edmonton public.

Did you hear the talk from Bill Comrie today? Let Katz leave this town.

I'm not sure if it's a crappy deal for Edmonton or not, but without a deal, the Oilers are gone. That trip to Seattle was not just for show, and you can bet Bettman is onside with a move.

This is getting to be a ****ing contest between a businessman used to doing deals and being a hardass and a mayor who is similarly a hardass. I don't blame Katz for not wanting to negotiate in public with 13 politicians, but he maybe trying to be too cute by half. One needs to remember, this is not just about the arena and the Oilers, but the casino and the developments around the arena, where Katz owns most of the land.

We are only seeing part of the picture.

[sns2]

He's not a lawyer.

[acedave3]

Dont 'THEY' all work together ??

[ganderblaster]

The NHL would never move a team that has a full building every night.

[Kim473]

Hope so!
Don't need my taxes going up for some billionair after the costs start to escalate while building and who do you think will foot the cost over runs. Sure, $450 now, $600 when complete. Sounding more and more like a Peter P. deal. What is Katz hidding that he can't talk to city countcill in closed doors?? The mayor can't make the desision on his own. Needs all of councill to make it.

What is Katz hidden agenda?? Is this just a barganing tactic to get more?? Probably!!! City should tell him to stuff it and move. Take his drug stores with him. Cuase if he moves the team, they will go under anyway.

[rmatei]

It is not the responsibility of the taxpayers to provide a facility for a private corporation. We have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on housing for the homeless, should our tax dollars go to provide a place for a homeless hockey team? I think not. If Katz can't fund the facility he shouldn't own a hockey team. If we have to shell out a half a billion dollars for the arena then why not spend the extra 200 million and buy the team? I think not.

[JohninAB]

Let the owner of the team build it with 100% of his own money or private money. Asking taxpayers to fund it is wrong on so many levels.

And to be quite honest, who cares if the Oilers leave. Games are way overpriced that the average Joe cannot attend but once a year anyways.

[doetracks]

Hal - Last I heard re: City Center Airport, several aviation companies that hold significant leases have filed a sizeable law suit against the city. I think that has put the "decommission" on hold.

[Zip]

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Let the owner of the team build it with 100% of his own money or private money. Asking taxpayers to fund it is wrong on so many levels.

And to be quite honest, who cares if the Oilers leave. Games are way overpriced that the average Joe cannot attend but once a year anyways.

I agree with johninAB"s comments...short and to the point. Wake up Edmonton...everybody's taxes will go up to pay for this...and hey it does get worse as the ticket prices will be going up....this makes no sense to me....but then again i live 5 hours away from that mess and likley it will not affect me....but i sure feel sorry for those people who are hockey fans and cant afford to go to a game or two or three throughout the season. When i was Living in Brandon Manitoba and the NHL drafted just about the whole team...Glenn Hanlon,Billy Delago,Brad Mcrimmon,Laurie Boschman,Brian Propp...etc, i know that one of these guys signed for $30.000.00 to "play" hockey...i went to school with all these guys and all they wanted to do was play the game...money was always second....now it seems that the money is first and then everything else...wow times sure have changed even in my lifetime...i am now 55 and cant afford to go watch the oliers or any other team for that matter...i think i am done now....i think!!

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by doetracks

Hal - Last I heard re: City Center Airport, several aviation companies that hold significant leases have filed a sizeable law suit against the city. I think that has put the "decommission" on hold.

Hi Ms. Doetracks:

Have you heard anything how the STAR's flights and police helicopter are going to be handled with the "decommisioning".

Just wondering.

[silverdoctor]

According to the following article, the city is looking at the idea of building it anyway. Now tell me that won't backfire in many ways...

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/city...840/story.html

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

According to the following article, the city is looking at the idea of building it anyway. Now tell me that won't backfire in many ways...

http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/city...840/story.html

This is just Jim Taylor jibberish.

Get Katz signature on a long term lease $$$$ first.....lol. Good luck with that.

Just hold tight and watch Katz coming crawling back with his tail between his legs. They did the right thing; called his bluff.

I still have a nagging suspicion this is all scripted.

[fishtank]

either way it's free money for katz.....

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by avb3

I'm not sure if it's a crappy deal for Edmonton or not, but without a deal, the Oilers are gone. That trip to Seattle was not just for show, and you can bet Bettman is onside with a move.

This is getting to be a ****ing contest between a businessman used to doing deals and being a hardass and a mayor who is similarly a hardass. I don't blame Katz for not wanting to negotiate in public with 13 politicians, but he maybe trying to be too cute by half. One needs to remember, this is not just about the arena and the Oilers, but the casino and the developments around the arena, where Katz owns most of the land.

We are only seeing part of the picture.

There not moving to Seattle or Kansas or Southern Ontario or Houston, get the notion outta your head. If Katz wants taxpayer money, he should expect public consultation and expect this to be a public process. Hes getting a sweetheart deal. Id rather see Edmonton build the stupid arena or Katz build the complex. The City should do the Pittsburgh model, get the funds froms bonds, secure the financing on lottery and gambling money. There are better options then beating this dead horse, and if they can't make it work then they should make a new deal.

[BlackHeart]

Does anybody believe WWF (pro-wrestling) is real??? But it makes a great drama show for those that watch it and does a really good job on making the hits and moves look like a fight. But most of us are not children and know that both the good and bad side has scripted this SHOW. The moves have been practiced, the scene laid out, the preamble and fighting words have been written, all the exact precision moves practiced with signals for quick modification should something go wrong. The end result and winner is determined long before show time. And both sides make a lot of money from the believers and followers and they have beers together afterwards, celebrating a successful outcome.

Katz and Mandel could write for WWF.

After Katz has invested a ton of money (major-#1 by a wide wide margin) in mandels political career/ campaigns, do you really think he doesn't own Mandel???....and that the final outcome of any deal will not be grossly in Katz's favor???? (Of course, only after coming to the brink of disaster, team moving, deal going bad, lawsuits threatened, and an emergency, all night hard-bargining negotiations, where both sides come out looking beat up, and Mandel the winner.) Sorry to spoil the ending for all you hockey fans. Oh, and the deal done in private without public consultation..."Sorry folk! Had to do it or risk loosing the team..a better offer was on the table!!"

But look at it this way.....you get to keep watching your beloved Oilers in Edmonton at the taxpayers expense, while believing that this was a good deal with such great economic benefit....that was the spin...wasn't it?

[AxeMan]

^^^^ nailed it.

Just listen to the Katz reaction today. It will now all go behind closed doors. The public phase of their (Katz + Mandel) plan is now over.

The rest of council and city administration has now been eliminated in negotiations. They will only come back into play for the final approval vote that will be sold to them behind closed doors by Mandel.

Phase 1 complete = ask for the moon and settle slightly less.

Phase 2 = Katz + Mandel + Bettman