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View Poll Results: Should handgun hunting be permitted?
yes, unrestricted. 120 51.50%
yes, but with special testing requirements. 51 21.89%
yes, but only for grouse. 1 0.43%
yes, but within it's own season. 14 6.01%
yes, but within the primitive season 9 3.86%
yes, but only for grouse. 0 0%
no. never. 35 15.02%
undecided. 11 4.72%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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  #181  
Old 01-02-2012, 08:14 AM
Element Element is offline
 
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Well, it's been fun. I'm really not as left as you may think from my comments. My goal is really to try and get you guys to open your minds just slightly...I understand the audience I'm speaking too, which makes it fun at times. We live in such an Alberta bubble and sometimes we think we understand how the world works from our little bubble without actually truly experiencing it for ourselves. Off to go fishing.. have a nice day fellows.
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  #182  
Old 01-02-2012, 08:34 AM
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My goal is really to try and get you guys to open your minds just slightly...
That's rich.
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  #183  
Old 01-02-2012, 08:40 AM
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Rocky.. I apologize if I offended you. I was really hoping it would fire you up to provide some useful stats, because as mentioned, I really want to believe you. Unfortunately numbers aren't just numbers anymore.. It's a very grey world...Which bothers me just as much. I just hope you don't form all your opinions from books and you tube videos...

Last edited by Element; 01-02-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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  #184  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:03 AM
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Then why do they feel the need to carry a handgun...? You said they carry it for protection. Are they fearful of something... Yes, I get home insurance because I fear my house will burn down. The root cause... fear. Keep diggin' your hole...
Ladies and Gentlemen...the liberal mind...hard at work. lol.


For protection, same as a fire extinguisher. Doesn't mean they're living in fear. There is a difference between being prepared for something, no matter how remote, and living in fear. I have a fire extinguisher in my truck, doesnt mean I live in fear of my truck burning down. In fact reminds me of a story I once heard: One day on a lonely bit of road a police officer sees this good old boy speeding in his pickup.

So the police officer pulls him over and tells the good old boy that he was speeding a bit, but then notices all these guns in the pickup truck.

There is a gun rack with rifles and shotguns behind the driver and the driver has two revolvers on each hip, a .45 across his chest and a small ankle gun.

The police officer says, "Son, what are you afraid of?"

The good old boy says, "Not a damn thing!"


Keep digging indeed...lol.

At any rate, my apologies to the OP, this handgun HUNTING poll, has taken a bit of a divergence from the original topic...no surprise though.


Well I was going to say Priceless in reference to the "open mind" comment. But rich is also acceptable.

Element, the one element you are ignoring regarding stats is the different cultural make up of the USA compared to Canada. Compare the actual violent crime rates amongst blacks in the US to whites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States There, now feel to scream RACIST!! Facts are facts. Too bad you can't look at them with an open mind, and instead live in a cloud of irrational fear.

When handguns regs are loosened in any US jurisdiction there is NO increase in violent crime...usually a small decrease if anything. Any of the cities with tight gun control have higher crime rates than any of the other cities.

Your cry for stats is really hollow though. The stats are there for anyone with an open mind to see if they care to look. Tighter gun control leads to more crime. Looser gun control leads to less. Pretty simple. It's an experiment that has been performed countless times the world over and the results are always the same. Disarm honest citizens and surpise, surprise...honest law abiding types are defenseless, and guess what?....the criminals forget to turn in their guns. Who would have ever guessed that in a million years?

Last edited by rugatika; 01-02-2012 at 09:17 AM.
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  #185  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:05 AM
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worked my way through this thread.
that's 30 minutes of my life i won't get back.

how come some people say "show me the statistics to back up ...yatayata"
but they never show statistics to back up their position?

handgun hunting? sure... why not? ... unrestricted?... absolutely.

done!
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  #186  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Element View Post
Rocky.. I apologize if I offended you.
Apology accepted. Let's skip the insults next time and debate facts.

(ps: As for your concern about big U.S. cities, you'll find that 20% of U.S. murders are committed in about 5 cities. You'll also find those 5 cities are big on gun control; especially handguns. Just sayin'.)

Quote:
I was really hoping it would fire you up to provide some useful stats, because as mentioned, I really want to believe you.
If that is true, why haven't you read what I have posted?

Spend a few bucks and buy "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. It's a paperback and not expensive. It's not a bible, but it's required reading if you truly have an open mind. That might lead you elswhere and, who knows, you might even come to say "That redneck sob was right. Who knew?"

Quote:
Unfortunately numbers aren't just numbers anymore.. It's a very grey world...Which bothers me just as much.
Agreed.

Quote:
I just hope you don't form all your opinions from books and you tube videos...
I find books are a more reliable source than TV. As for the videos, here's one of my personal favourites (wait for it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM

How many more like her might live except for liberal gun propaganda?

As you say, it's not a simple issue. It is hard to have an open mind because much of the information we should have is censored by Canadian liberal media heads, lying politicians and various social engineers. We have a lot of totems.

If you take up my suggestions, you may not change your mind but you will be better informed.
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  #187  
Old 01-02-2012, 12:00 PM
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Element: Don't you find yourself a little hypocritical demanding statistics, then refuting the ones provided; while providing exactly zero empirical evidence to support your own position? Try to keep in mind how the pro LGR "expert witnesses" whose debate methods echo your own were recently called out on their lies and reprimanded in committee by MP Hoeppner on their deliberately misleading falsifications regarding LGR usage statistics by law enforcement officials.
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  #188  
Old 01-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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^^ kinda what i was saying.
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  #189  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:03 PM
Albertacoyotecaller Albertacoyotecaller is offline
 
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Default The bubble

If there is anything that offends me it is being classified as living in a bubble. Why do you think that living in Alberta makes us live without knowledge of what happens in other parts of this world. That is truely an ignorant statement and judgement on Elements part.

Just because we are living in what people perceive as Redneck Alberta doesn't make us stupid!

Greg
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  #190  
Old 01-02-2012, 01:19 PM
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A view from my Bubble....

I've twice had handguns pointed at me while I was in MY front yard. Both instances were crack dealers doing Dial a Dope business who happened to park in front of my house.

I'd "feel" much safer in my Bubble if I could point one back, but I follow the present law.

Handgun hunting in Alberta. An emphatic YES from me. I would also like a broadening of "legal" game as well....
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  #191  
Old 01-02-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
A view from my Bubble....

I've twice had handguns pointed at me while I was in MY front yard. Both instances were crack dealers doing Dial a Dope business who happened to park in front of my house.

I'd "feel" much safer in my Bubble if I could point one back, but I follow the present law.

Handgun hunting in Alberta. An emphatic YES from me. I would also like a broadening of "legal" game as well....
Would that include drug dealers as "legal" game? I could go along with that. But for them I would prefer to use an underpowered cartridge and perhaps a gut shot from too far away, so as to inflict as much pain and suffering.
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  #192  
Old 01-02-2012, 03:30 PM
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The elementary argument is "I don't want guns so no-one should have them". where have we seen that before? Selfish.
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  #193  
Old 01-02-2012, 06:50 PM
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Wow.. amazing the attacks. Funny, how I'm automatically labelled a liberal. Trust me, if I could vote in Canada, I would certainly be voting conservative. Why does one view on handguns make me a liberal...

I also think the gun registry was a joke. I brought two guns up with me from the States and attempted to get them verified by ten different volunteer verifiers. It never got done, finally wrote a letter to the firearms center and they were registered. I can't see anyone with criminal intentions going through this much trouble.

You're right, I didn't provide any stats of my own. I was speaking from my own experience of actually living in the States, not from You Tube videos I watch. It's really not worth my time as I'm pretty confident you'll fight me to the grave on whatever I post. I'm confident I could find stats to back my argument just as you could too. We can make the numbers say whatever we want to... If I posted stats, you guys would try to blow holes through them, which many I'm sure would be legitimate arguments, just as I did with Dave's stats. I was really hoping Dave would provide some info that would convince me differently as I'm trying to keep a very open mind on this debate. I agree with CaberTosser, it's just about impossible to compare apples to apples. The race issue is huge down there and something I'm so grateful we don't deal with here.

I'm really trying to compliment you on what I believe is great system we have here in Canada, minus the gun registry. I guess, you're right again, I'm selfish in hoping it doesn't change in the name of "hunting"...

Last edited by Element; 01-02-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  #194  
Old 01-02-2012, 07:17 PM
guywiththemule guywiththemule is offline
 
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Default Element......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Element View Post
Wow.. amazing the attacks. Funny, how I'm automatically labelled a liberal. Trust me, if I could vote in Canada, I would certainly be voting conservative. Why does one view on handguns make me a liberal...

I also think the gun registry was a joke. I brought two guns up with me from the States and attempted to get them verified by ten different volunteer verifiers. It never got done, finally wrote a letter to the firearms center and they were registered. I can't see anyone with criminal intentions going through this much trouble.

You're right, I didn't provide any stats of my own. I was speaking from my own experience of actually living in the States, not from You Tube videos I watch. It's really not worth my time as I'm pretty confident you'll fight me to the grave on whatever I post. I'm confident I could find stats to back my argument just as you could too. We can make the numbers say whatever we want to... If I posted stats, you guys would try to blow holes through them, which many I'm sure would be legitimate arguments, just as I did with Dave's stats. I was really hoping Dave would provide some info that would convince me differently as I'm trying to keep a very open mind on this debate. I agree with CaberTosser, it's just about impossible to compare apples to apples. The race issue is huge down there and something I'm so grateful we don't deal with here.

I'm really trying to compliment you on what I believe is great system we have here in Canada, minus the gun registry. I guess, you're right again, I'm selfish in hoping it doesn't change in the name of "hunting"...
All I can say to you is; please turn in your guns to the RCMP at once. People like you, with your mindset and power of reasoning(rationale) really scare me. And yes I lived in the US and did not feel any of the so called "fear" of armed citizens that you talk about. I believe that you are making a lot of this up for internet "drama".
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  #195  
Old 01-02-2012, 08:48 PM
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You're right, I didn't provide any stats of my own. I was speaking from my own experience of actually living in the States,....not from knowing much, reading or studying anything. As a former U.S. resident who has driven through some ghettos, I know all about handguns and their relationship to violent crime. That's why I don't pay any attention to statistics. I also believe that freedoms have to be justified by proof from those who want to exercise a freedom; especially if it's one I don't like. Freedom originates with government, it is neither God-given nor innate. People who want to use a handgun for anything need to first go through endless rounds of Whack-a- Mole with those of us who know what's best.
Fixed it for you
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  #196  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:06 PM
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Statistics can be made to support one way or the other. Hence why they are not very reliable.
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  #197  
Old 01-02-2012, 09:23 PM
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What do you recommend, then? A conversation with Mr. Ouija?

Statistics are fine, but you do need to be a discriminating consumer and take enough time to figure out what they mean.

I posted some murder rates in Right to Carry States a while back on this thread in response to the Yosemite Sam paintings that were offered in opposition to the proposition of hunting with a handgun.

Those very low murder rates in all those States do not prove that we'd have the same murder rate if we were a Right to Carry Province. But they DO prove that folks who pass background checks and take training do not shoot each other when they carry handguns. They just don't. Hence those real low murder rates. That much was proved. If the Yosemite Sam objection raised here to oppose hunting with handguns was real, those low murder rates could simply not exist, regardless of the size of their cities, unemployment rate, length of their highways, the quality of their crystal meth. or any other distraction somebody wants to toss out. It is impossible to have a very low murder rate if Right to Carry means people commence shooting at red lights, etc. etc. etc. etc. Impossible. Hence, the Yosemite Sam objection is a proven hallucination.

Statistics are very useful - as long as you don't get the bit in your teeth and run off into the Back 40 with them. Gun Zombies do that. A lot.
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  #198  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:24 PM
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Ahhh, exactly as I suspected. You've made the numbers say exactly what you wanted them to say. You are not comparing apples to apples in using Montana. Montana's largest city, Billings, has a population of just over a 100,000. The entire state itself, has a population of only about a 1MM people, spread out over a huge area. Let's talk urban crime per capita since 2/3 of Alberta's population live in cities with over a 1MM people. Please show me the crime stats using a comparison of cities of at least 1MM. Crime rates per capita significantly increase in densely populated areas.
I would suggest you obtain a copy of a book by a man named Kopel called Samurai, Mountie, and a Cowboy. In it he reviews the gun laws in about seven different countries around the world. Off the top of my head, the murder rate for Washington DC is about 150/100,000 in a city where it is illegal to own a firearm. Compare that to Vermont with no gun laws and a rate of 3.5/100,000. Access to fire arms and laws regarding guns have almost no effect on murder rate, it is a lot more dependant on poverty rate, unemployment, and possibly culture.
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  #199  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:34 PM
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And how exactly do statistics concerning crime rate have to do anything with "handgun hunting" which is what this thread started as in it's infancy? Still, as I've witnessed the lunatics with long guns, why should I propose or even agree to expand the lunacy to further expand and support "handgun" hunting when most can't even manage to be ethical enough about their behaviours with long guns to stretch it out even further????????
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  #200  
Old 01-03-2012, 05:50 PM
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At the end of the day I'm all for it, why not.

Most guys cant hit diddly with a rifle, most know nothing about shotgun patterning.

So why would more than 10% of all guys know jack about handgun hunting, or evalutating handgun cartridge A over Cartridge B, or model C vs. Model D.

As for trolls like Element, there are no statistics for what handgun hunting will or will not do in Canada, so spout all the negatives you want, you have zero data, to support your stance. All you have is an emotional stance that I'm sure Freud would have had a hay day with.

I deal in facts and proven theories on a daily basis, when you encounter a one of or something new, all you can do is try it, and see what the outcome will be. After that the statistics will speak loud and clear..until then, move to the fishing section afterall that's where trolling belongs.
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  #201  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:07 PM
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Licened but not teted is my vote.
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  #202  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:44 PM
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Licened but not teted is my vote.
Yup, buddy couldn't win a 7 word spelling bee. That's the guy I want against me. bahahahaha!
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  #203  
Old 01-03-2012, 06:48 PM
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I think he is taking the pi ss out of me. I made the spelling mistake when I posted the poll, but I was jet lagged, and my internet was poor at the time, so no spell check working.
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  #204  
Old 01-03-2012, 07:43 PM
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I think he is taking the pi ss out of me. I made the spelling mistake when I posted the poll, but I was jet lagged, and my internet was poor at the time, so no spell check working.
Awwwe? the plane and the internet did it. No really, I still want you on the other side. It's all good bud You da man!

Shoud licened teted???? Okydooky....badadadingding, badadadingding (sung to the tune of Duelling Banjo's).

Last edited by gitrdun; 01-03-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  #205  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:33 PM
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I think he is taking the pi ss out of me. I made the spelling mistake when I posted the poll, but I was jet lagged, and my internet was poor at the time, so no spell check working.
Nobody that matters cares about a shallow typo. Trolls care because they can't swim in the deep end of the pool.
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  #206  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
.... when you encounter a one of or something new, all you can do is try it, and see what the outcome will be. After that the statistics will speak loud and clear...
x2

We can do that if we ever manage to get beyond fear.
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  #207  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:39 PM
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Default Stats...

Just thought I would through some numbers up for you guys to make you happy. I know you're going to find multiple ways to blow holes in this data as I would yours...

This will be my last post. Perhaps I've had too much time on my hands over the holidays and started psoting. I'm bowing out and switching back to the read only version. You've won... Hope you're happy. This has been like talking to a brick wall and not worth my time. I've been a member since 2008 and have really appreciated the many things I've learned on this forum. Unfortunately, I believe if the general public read this forum, it would be a great embarrassment to the Alberta outdoorsman...

Let the bashing begin once again...


Canada's firearm homicide rate is lower than the United States but higher than Australia and England and Wales...

This compares Canada's firearm-related homicide rates to those in the United States, Australia, and England and Wales. The crime of homicide is selected for two reasons. First, unlike other crimes, the definition of homicide tends to be fairly consistent across nations, thus enabling international comparisons. Second, because of its severity, homicide is more likely than any other crime to be known to police and to be the subject of thorough investigation. Thus, a census of detailed homicide data, including the type of weapon used to commit the offence, is available from each of the four countries. Whether the rates of other firearm-related violent crimes, such as attempted murder or robbery, would show the same pattern as homicide is unknown.

Overall homicide rates are highest in the United States, followed by Canada, Australia, and England and Wales. While non-firearm homicide rates are similar between the four countries, the rates of firearm-related homicides are quite different (Chart 4). In 2006, Canada's firearm-related homicide rate (0.58) was nearly six times lower than the United States (3.40), but about three times higher than the rate in Australia (0.22) and six times higher than the rate in England and Wales (0.10). Firearms accounted for about one-third (31%) of all homicides in Canada, approximately two-thirds (68%) in the U.S., 16% in Australia and 7% in England and Wales.


Homicide by method for selected countries, 2006




Source: Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Homicide Survey; Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; Australian Institute of Criminology; and England & Wales Home Office.

All four countries reported that handguns were the most common type of gun used in the commission of firearm-related homicides. In 2006, handguns were responsible for 75% of all firearm-related homicides in the United States, 57% in Canada, 47% in Australia and 44% in England and Wales.

Canadian homicide data from 2003 to 2006 indicate that where registration status was known, 7 in 10 firearms used to commit homicide were reported by police to be unregistered.2 Among persons accused of homicide, 27% were found to possess a valid firearms license. Data from Australia show that most firearms used to commit homicide are unlawfully held by accused persons (Mouzos, 2000).
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:43 PM
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Nobody that matters cares about a shallow typo. Trolls care because they can't swim in the deep end of the pool.
Thanks. There sure have been a lot of trolls on today.
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  #209  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Element View Post
Just thought I would through some numbers up for you guys to make you happy. I know you're going to find multiple ways to blow holes in this data as I would yours...

This will be my last post. Perhaps I've had too much time on my hands over the holidays and started psoting. I'm bowing out and switching back to the read only version. You've won... Hope you're happy. This has been like talking to a brick wall and not worth my time. I've been a member since 2008 and have really appreciated the many things I've learned on this forum. Unfortunately, I believe if the general public read this forum, it would be a great embarrassment to the Alberta outdoorsman...

Let the bashing begin once again...


Canada's firearm homicide rate is lower than the United States but higher than Australia and England and Wales...

This compares Canada's firearm-related homicide rates to those in the United States, Australia, and England and Wales. The crime of homicide is selected for two reasons. First, unlike other crimes, the definition of homicide tends to be fairly consistent across nations, thus enabling international comparisons. Second, because of its severity, homicide is more likely than any other crime to be known to police and to be the subject of thorough investigation. Thus, a census of detailed homicide data, including the type of weapon used to commit the offence, is available from each of the four countries. Whether the rates of other firearm-related violent crimes, such as attempted murder or robbery, would show the same pattern as homicide is unknown.

Overall homicide rates are highest in the United States, followed by Canada, Australia, and England and Wales. While non-firearm homicide rates are similar between the four countries, the rates of firearm-related homicides are quite different (Chart 4). In 2006, Canada's firearm-related homicide rate (0.58) was nearly six times lower than the United States (3.40), but about three times higher than the rate in Australia (0.22) and six times higher than the rate in England and Wales (0.10). Firearms accounted for about one-third (31%) of all homicides in Canada, approximately two-thirds (68%) in the U.S., 16% in Australia and 7% in England and Wales.


Homicide by method for selected countries, 2006




Source: Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Homicide Survey; Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; Australian Institute of Criminology; and England & Wales Home Office.

All four countries reported that handguns were the most common type of gun used in the commission of firearm-related homicides. In 2006, handguns were responsible for 75% of all firearm-related homicides in the United States, 57% in Canada, 47% in Australia and 44% in England and Wales.

Canadian homicide data from 2003 to 2006 indicate that where registration status was known, 7 in 10 firearms used to commit homicide were reported by police to be unregistered.2 Among persons accused of homicide, 27% were found to possess a valid firearms license. Data from Australia show that most firearms used to commit homicide are unlawfully held by accused persons (Mouzos, 2000).
Without getting too far into your numbers, you fail to show the per capita amount of guns to people.

Next you have picked a couple countires that almost have no pistols.

And you you point out that many of the guns used in homicide are illegal.

You should do some research on Switzerland and their gun laws. It has the most guns per citizen rate in the world if I am not mistaken, and they have one of the lowest home invasion rates, and murder rates are also equally low.
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  #210  
Old 01-03-2012, 09:01 PM
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The reason Canada and US rates are higher is because we are better shots
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