Whats best a bullet that passes through or one that reaches the backside of the hide ???

Energy can't be "unleashed" It can however allow a bullet to do its work. In fact a bullet can't work without it but the energy is used up by the resistance the bullet encounters from the second it leaves the barrel...it's not magically unleahed...well unless you are using an exploding projectile.

The moving mass (the bullet) creates a permanent wound channel and a temporary wound channel. Absolutely there is hydraulic force or shock caused by the moving mass...not energy being unleashed or dumped. It's called a temporary wound chanel. If energy killed bullet proof vest would be useless.

Type "energy dump myth" into Google and sit down for a few hours and read what comes up.

[nekred]

Yes the energy is unleashed!.... it can become uncaged... most dangerous energy is when energy becomes uncaged....

The chemical energy stored in you gunpowder gets unleased in a hurry under the right circumstances...then it carries on into the target and gets TRANSFERRED.... to the target and if enough energy gets transferred to the right location to creat the destruction required....

Shoot a 2 liter rubber coated water bottle filled with 85% water and 15% sand... let me know how that works. (human body is 85% water and most of the rest is silica)....

Warp it in a bullet proff vest and then shoot it at 100 yards with a 20 MM cannon and see if the energy is unleashed!....

In arrows there is a direct wound channel. In bullets there is a wound column.

You unleash enough energery on a bullet proff vest and it is ineefective... thus why they have to have a trauma plate etc. for larger rounds....

What happens is the energy has to reach the vital tissue!.... with enough force (energy again)

That is how concussion grenades work!....

To be more technical entropy is at play....

Like I said, you should likely Google "Energy transer or dump myth" or not........

When you start comparing a bottle of water to the human body or a concussion grenade or 20mm cannons to a very small solid mass moving through tissue, I think it's time for me to walk away.

[Speckle55]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

here is one opinion..

i just know that it is not a worry that consumes me as i shoot and a well placed bullet does massive tramua with a PP 175 grain 7mm Mag Rem at any range up to 1100 meters

i do also know that i will not shot a animal bedded again in the heart again as the blood shot was massive and wasted both front shoulders.. at 450 yards pic attached for the trolls
001 (2).jpg

i have not open up the brain and look for it though

David

Ballistic gel well illustrates the effects of hydraulic shock or temporary wound channel. It's much more prevelant at the begining of the wound channel and declines dramatically as the bullet slows. At that point it's all about the hole. It becomes apparent that velocity and the size of the temporary wound channel share a close relationship so it's pretty easy to make the case that a bullet that retains velocity/energy and passes through actually has a longer track of hydraulic shock and creates more secondary damage to tissue. It's also very obvious that engery dump is a myth. The bullet slows because of friction and loses energy because it loses velocity....not because it's transfering or dumping it.

[silver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's also very obvious that engery dump is a myth. The bullet slows because of friction and loses energy because it loses velocity....not because it's transfering or dumping it.

I think energy dump is a poor choice of words, but if a bullet is slowing due to friction, is that not a transfer?

Originally Posted by silver

I think energy dump is a poor choice of words, but if a bullet is slowing due to friction, is that not a transfer?

In the fact that it transforms into to heat yes.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by silver

I think energy dump is a poor choice of words, but if a bullet is slowing due to friction, is that not a transfer?

Not only is it a transfer, it is a fury of power transferring destructive force and energy causing hopefully cataclysmic damage and pulverization of said critter tissue resulting in immediate or close to immediate doom and destruction for said critter if hit in the right spot. Makes sense, no?

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by bdub

Not only is it a transfer, it is a fury of power transferring destructive force and energy causing hopefully cataclysmic damage and pulverization of said critter tissue resulting in immediate or close to immediate doom and destruction for said critter if hit in the right spot. Makes sense, no?

love it. On a side note sheephunter so what is t

he best bullet then? In your opinion?

Originally Posted by muledeerking

love it. On a side note sheephunter so what is t

he best bullet then? In your opinion?

One that expands rapidly upon impact to about 2x its original size and retains a very high percentage of weight. And is accurate of course. There are numerous bullets that fit into this category.

[bdub]

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/b...s/methods.html

Not sure if the cut and paste thing worked but this is an interesting read on bullet performance and terminal ballistics. It may be a little dated as stuff is changing so fast but it shows good comparisons of various rifle bullets and wound channels. Also a few surprising results.

[bdub]

Whatever you do stay away from this ammo.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Pick and choose Rich...pick and choose.

Feel inferior to who? You?....yah that's it. That's the biggest gag in this thread. Thanks for yet another stellar contribution...

LC

Oh come on buddy are you always this grumpy when someone tells you your fly is open? LOL

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Energy has never killed an animal...it's pure an absolute bunk. Energy allows a bullet to do its work, nothing more. If that bullet is designed properly and there is suffucient energy to allow it to expand and penetrate...things die. Two bullets, depending on construction, can do very different amounts of work with the same amount of energy. Energy basically means nothing with modern bullets......provided there is enough to allow them to do their work.

....and there you have the truth folks.....

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Oh come on buddy are you always this grumpy when someone tells you your fly is open? LOL

I ain't your buddy pal...

LC

[338Bluff]

...So in conclusion a crossbow has no place in a general archery season.......oh wait a minute wrong thread. From the heated repartee I could of swore this was a crossbow thread.It must be a stolen trail camera or ballistics thread then.....

Seriously. Pass through is the best, use monolithics or bonded bullets and everythings good. Two holes are always better than one. If a bullet passes completely through a vital area and exits chances enough damage has been done to humanely dispatch your game. Bang flops are ok to but usually can equate to more damage to venision in the immediate area and fragmentation through out the animal.

JMHO

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You know the diaphram is a muscle that expands and contracts?...and actually has a certain amount of movement...in a human it moves up and down and in 4 legged beasts it moves laterally back and forth....it doesn't move a lot but it does move...

Read this...first two paragraphs...you might learn something.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/heal...athappens.html

....
LC

Uh, Lefty-Canuck, regarding how the diaphragm moves, here are the first few lines from the nih site you asked us to read:

"When you breathe in, or inhale, your diaphragm contracts (tightens) and moves downward. This increases the space in your chest cavity, into which your lungs expand."

The diaphragm performs the same function in all mammals, whether they be game or humans. When an elk inhales, his diaphragm shifts towards its pelvis, which increases the space in it's chest cavity and so expands the lungs. If elk walked on two feet, their diaphragm would move in the same way, down toward their pelvis.

I voted for the pass through.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I understand that the diaphram function is the same in all mammals...what exactly do you think I misunderstood?

Humans stand upright....4 legged animals do not. Hence why I stated in humans the diaphram moves up and down....when you lay down to sleep it would move up and down in your chest cavity but not up and down as related to a horizontal plain. 4 Legged animals do not walk up right....so therefore the diaphram in 4 legged animals move horizontally not vertically.

My whole main point to all of this was that the chest cavity changes size and shape slightly through the process of respiration....and the positioning of several internal organs shifts slightly as well. Whether you agree with me or not is up to you .....clearly several do not and I am ok with with that

Hunting with a rifle is a game of inches....one inch one way or the other can make a difference.

LC

[twofifty]

I edited while you posted.
Hold on a second.

[twofifty]

My bad, sorry. You had it right from the get-go.

I've thought about your dad's gut sucking story and can imagine that this could very well happen:

1. Animal gets hit at the moment of full exhalation.
2. A quartering away shot into the abdomen sends the bullet through the diaphragm into the lungs.
3. Animal's first reaction is to think WTF then take a deep breath.
4. Stuff from the abdominal cavity gets drawn into the lungs.

edit: as to organ movement, I agree they move slightly in their immediate neighbourhood, all the while being suspended and encapsulated by conjunctive tissue (the white stuff).

[Lefty-Canuck]

No worries

The bullet was a pass through so it didn't "blow up" we were trying to figure out how guts got into the chest cavity as by looking at the entrance and exit wounds...it was not a gut shot.

I suppose it is possible the bullet fragmented slightly and a shard pierced the guts...

In any event....

....I am not saying these things to re-invent anatomy or the wheel.....just that this was explained to me quite a few years back and at the time it made sense....

But some folks disagree with me and that is just fine....I don't know everything and I don't pretend to know everything either

LC

Originally Posted by twofifty

My bad, sorry. You had it right from the get-go.

I've thought about your dad's gut sucking story and can imagine that this could very well happen:

1. Animal gets hit at the moment of full exhalation.
2. A quartering away shot into the abdomen sends the bullet through the diaphragm into the lungs.
3. Animal's first reaction is to think WTF then take a deep breath.
4. Stuff from the abdominal cavity gets drawn into the lungs.

Only problem there is a deep breath would be impossible with a ruptured diaphragm.

[twofifty]

Yes, bullet damage to the diaphragm would have to be quite limited in area, otherwise the pump will have lost its prime. With a ruptured diaphragm that elk has drawn its last breath, no matter how much help it gets from its rib muscles.

Perhaps with a small hole, the abdominal organ 'stuff' would keep 're-sealing and re-priming' the pump at the stuff is drawn into the lungs.

Most of the above is speculation on my part.

Originally Posted by twofifty

Yes, bullet damage to the diaphragm would have to be quite limited in area, otherwise the pump will have lost its prime. With a ruptured diaphragm that elk has drawn its last breath, no matter how much help it gets from its rib muscles.

Perhaps with a small hole, the abdominal organ 'stuff' would keep 're-sealing and re-priming' the pump at the stuff is drawn into the lungs.

Most of the above is speculation on my part.

The gut would have to get past the liver and stomach as well..... I could see it getting pushed there by a fragmenting bullet...otherwise, not so much.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

The gut would have to get past the liver and stomach as well..... I could see it getting pushed there by a fragmenting bullet...otherwise, not so much.

I should qualify when I am talking "gut" I mean green, leafy, veggie, smelliness material.....possibly from the stomach...?

.....I don't mean there was intestine wrapped up in the chest cavity.

LC

[338Bluff]

When I have found half digested plant material in the chest cavity I always figured it was from bullet or bone framents hitting the esophagus. The gut material is 'cud'.

Just sayin'

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I should qualify when I am talking "gut" I mean green, leafy, veggie, smelliness material.....possibly from the stomach...?

.....I don't mean there was intestine wrapped up in the chest cavity.

LC

More easily explained by pulmonary aspiration......

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

When I have found half digested plant material in the chest cavity I always figured it was from bullet or bone framents hitting the esophagus. The gut material is 'cud'.

Just sayin'

That could be too....just seemed like there was an awful lot of it all up in there....

The observation was from a single point in time while dressing the animal and was not a "full autopsy" if you will.

It is possible we were mistaken as well...like I said we were trying to figure out how this happened.....the chest cavity was full of "gut contents"

....the suggestion of the position of the diaphram was made and at the time seemed reasonable.

LC

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

When I have found half digested plant material in the chest cavity I always figured it was from bullet or bone framents hitting the esophagus. The gut material is 'cud'.

Just sayin'

Yup, that is a much more plausibe answer as well.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

That could be too....just seemed like there was an awful lot of it all up in there....

The observation was from a single point in time while dressing the animal and was not a "full autopsy" if you will.

It is possible we were mistaken as well...like I said we were trying to figure out how this happened.....the chest cavity was full of "gut contents"

....the suggestion of the position of the diapram was made and at the time seemed reasonable.

LC

Hammer a doe with a cup and core bullet while she is chewin her cud and you could see a pile of lawn clippings. Bone fragments cause a lot of secondary damage as well. Sometimes an animal may run a short distance and expire. It can really mess stuff up internally if there are bone shards tearing things up.

Another thought. When you shot the doe through the vitals it is possible that all the contents of the rumen could have leaked/spilled into the chest due to the massive trauma caused by the bullet. If the esophagus is ruptured and the rumen contracts/or loses control at the time the doe went down then you could see more?