F&W Searching my camp site etc!!!!

[Guitarplayingfish]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Ok is this tent an ice fishing shack that is not used for sleeping? Then it is not a dwelling house and a search without a warrant is allowed. If it is a sleeping tent then no they would not be able to search the tent without a warrant.

Possession of a barbed hook is not illegal. Using one is. Now if you were on a lake with a bait ban and had bait then you are screwed. Or if you are fishing in the National Parks and have lead weights you are screwed.

Comes down to context man. We can what if this to death but having a complaint of possible illegal activity gives a little more power of search and seizure. I was looking up case law on it and an anonymous complaint is not enough to get a search warrant for a dwelling house it allows for on the spot checks of everything else.

The Fisheries Act also allows for the stopping of vehicles and the search of them if they are involved in potentially illegal activities. The only sacred thing we have is our homes. Those are supposed to be inviolate.

an Icefishing shack used for fishing is still an ice-fishing shack... Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a dwelling have to on land..? Ice is only around for a portion of the year, so from my understanding regardless of whether your sleeping in it or not it does not qualify as a temporary residence.

as for example having bait at a bait-banned lake... As long as your not using it, it shouldn't be a problem.. say for example I had a tackle-box that had powerbait in it... that is always in it, and I haven't touched for a year... or if you are coming from a different lake which bait was allowed, it doesn't matter if its in your tackle box.. To begin with, he can't legally search without consent unless your breaking regulations or there is reasonable grounds. There is a world of difference having bait on your person or in your tacklebox and having it on the end of your line.

finally, Define potentially illegal activity.. I'll bet it's a doozie. I'm sure case law has defined it throughout history, but if a CO is going to stop a vehicle leaving a fishing area they better have a damn good reason to back up their claim for suspicion...

From the thread I read earlier about the man and his family being bothered and searched from an anonymous call... come on. It is the general publics responsibility to call and help protect our fisheries, but if your going to call make sure you actually see the violation happen and your sure the confrontation will lead to a fine.

[Isopod]

Originally Posted by OttCan

So if a CO stops you and you have tackle...IN YOUR TACKLE BOX...and there are hooks that are still barbed, a CO can still issue you a fine for tackle that is barbed, eventhough they are not being used??

As I understand it, you can have a tackle box full of barbed hooks and you are fine. It is only the hooks you are actually fishing with, ie on your line, that must be barbless. The regulations say it is illegal to USE barbed hooks but say nothing about it being illegal to POSSESS barbed hooks, as opposed to something like a gaff hook, which is illegal to possess while angling in Alberta (ie you could have a gaff at home, but not one with you when you are out fishing).

[Guitarplayingfish]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

So what exactly constitutes reasonable grounds though? An eye witness? An anonymous phone call? etc... I am all for allowing a LEGAL search if required, as I don't keep ANY fish, I am just interested in learning my rights.

I'm pretty sure that is up to the judge.. Most (but not all) of the time if the CO decides whatever is reason enough to search, than the judge will agree.

fairly certain, but don't quote me.

[gatorhunter]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

Actually, as soon as you set up in a campsite it is a temporary living area... It must be treated as a place of residence and F&W cannot just do whatever they want.

There could certainly be a certain right to privacy attached if the camping structure is on a paid site in an approved campground or where the occupants of the camping structure have a right to erect that structure. However, any or all rights might be lost if this structure is erected illegally.

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

Hence why drinking in a campsite is not "drinking in public".

It's usually legal on a paid for campsite in a campground that permits liquor on your campsite. Park or campground regulations will dictate whether or not liquor can be possessed or consumed in a park or campground. I'd go so far as to say that Private campgrounds carry liability insurance to protect them their clients consumption of liquor.

Regular Crown lands are usually considered public therefore drinking on open Crown lands is considered drinking in public and probably subject to prosecution. Depends what your Province's liquor control laws say.

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

If you are icefishing and have a cooler beside you and F&W comes up and checks out the fish you have laying on the ice, they have no reason to check your cooler whether it has more fish in it or not.. There has to be reasonable belief.. If there was a scale on the cooler or blood on/around it, they would have every right to check it out.. If it was bare, it could be filled with beer or drugs or an illegal amount of fish and they have no right to check it unless you directly give them permission.

As I posted on the "other" thread, the Fisheries Act of Canada clearly gives Fishery Officers the powers to search/inspect any receptacle, vehicle that an Officer has reasonable grounds to believe is related to fish or fishing. A cooler anywhere near fishing activity is fair game for inspection by a Fishery Officer.

[Kim473]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Ok is this tent an ice fishing shack that is not used for sleeping? Then it is not a dwelling house and a search without a warrant is allowed. If it is a sleeping tent then no they would not be able to search the tent without a warrant.

Possession of a barbed hook is not illegal. Using one is. Now if you were on a lake with a bait ban and had bait then you are screwed. Or if you are fishing in the National Parks and have lead weights you are screwed.

Comes down to context man. We can what if this to death but having a complaint of possible illegal activity gives a little more power of search and seizure. I was looking up case law on it and an anonymous complaint is not enough to get a search warrant for a dwelling house it allows for on the spot checks of everything else.

The Fisheries Act also allows for the stopping of vehicles and the search of them if they are involved in potentially illegal activities. The only sacred thing we have is our homes. Those are supposed to be inviolate.

If you have lead weights in your tackle box but are not using them, they can fine you?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

an Icefishing shack used for fishing is still an ice-fishing shack... Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a dwelling have to on land..? Ice is only around for a portion of the year, so from my understanding regardless of whether your sleeping in it or not it does not qualify as a temporary residence.

as for example having bait at a bait-banned lake... As long as your not using it, it shouldn't be a problem.. say for example I had a tackle-box that had powerbait in it... that is always in it, and I haven't touched for a year... or if you are coming from a different lake which bait was allowed, it doesn't matter if its in your tackle box.. To begin with, he can't legally search without consent unless your breaking regulations or there is reasonable grounds. There is a world of difference having bait on your person or in your tacklebox and having it on the end of your line.

finally, Define potentially illegal activity.. I'll bet it's a doozie. I'm sure case law has defined it throughout history, but if a CO is going to stop a vehicle leaving a fishing area they better have a damn good reason to back up their claim for suspicion...

From the thread I read earlier about the man and his family being bothered and searched from an anonymous call... come on. It is the general publics responsibility to call and help protect our fisheries, but if your going to call make sure you actually see the violation happen and your sure the confrontation will lead to a fine.

A shack set up on the ice with provisions to sleep, ie bunks ect is considered a temporary residence. Does not need to be on land. A camper on the ice would be considered a temporary residence.

Ice hunt is not a temp residence. No expectation of privacy with an ice shelter for fishing. Subject to search.


Barbed hooks are not illegal, just the use. Possession of bait where bait is banned can get you in trouble and lead in a National Park is a no no. Don't have to be using just possessing.

RAP call comes in of someone keeping walleye where no limit (for example) with a sufficient description would be enough to form reasonable grounds that an offense could have occurred.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

As I posted on the "other" thread, the Fisheries Act of Canada clearly gives Fishery Officers the powers to search/inspect any receptacle, vehicle that an Officer has reasonable grounds to believe is related to fish or fishing. A cooler anywhere near fishing activity is fair game for inspection by a Fishery Officer.

Here;

Search

27(1) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may,

(a) on obtaining a warrant, or

(b) without a warrant if the officer or guardian believes on reasonable and probable grounds that it is not practical to obtain a warrant because the necessary delay may result in the loss of evidence,

search for fish and fishing equipment in any vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft or railway car, or in any business premises, building, tent or structure unless it is used as a private dwelling, when, on reasonable grounds, the officer or guardian believes that fish or fishing equipment is contained there.

[Guitarplayingfish]

A paid campsite would be up to the campground and provincial liquor laws, but if you set up camp on crown land you can drink as much as you want within a reasonable distance from your tent or trailer or whatever it may be. This goes back to a place of dwelling, or temporary residence. All I do is camp backcountry on crown, and I have drank a whole lot of beer near officers who stopped by the camp. If it was drinking in public, I'm fairly certain I would have heard about it by now.

[Guitarplayingfish]

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Here;

Search

27(1) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may,

(a) on obtaining a warrant, or

(b) without a warrant if the officer or guardian believes on reasonable and probable grounds that it is not practical to obtain a warrant because the necessary delay may result in the loss of evidence,

search for fish and fishing equipment in any vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft or railway car, or in any business premises, building, tent or structure unless it is used as a private dwelling, when, on reasonable grounds, the officer or guardian believes that fish or fishing equipment is contained there.

The question is what defines reasonable ground?

[Guitarplayingfish]

Barbed hooks are not illegal, just the use. Possession of bait where bait is banned can get you in trouble and lead in a National Park is a no no. Don't have to be using just possessing.

National parks are a different story, but I honestly disagree with possessing bait at a bait-banned lake. What if I was fishing and an officer pulled up and noticed I had powerbait or scented minnows in the back seat.. does that give him reason enough to think Im using it at the bait-banned lake? Is that reason enough to tear my shack and tackleboxes apart?

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

The question is what defines reasonable ground?

I think it's reasonable to assume that the truck you drove ice fishing would have fishing equipment in it. And the shack.. maybe not a cooler though. wow, tough call. I am glad I don't have to make that call. There has to be case law about this.. I wonder if it's available online?? I looked on CanLii but couldn't find anything.

[Guitarplayingfish]

It really is a tough call... stuff like this is why court cases take so damn long.. I've got a law book I could probably look up precedence from earlier cases but Im lazy.

[canadiantdi]

Originally Posted by Guitarplayingfish

It really is a tough call... stuff like this is why court cases take so damn long.. I've got a law book I could probably look up precedence from earlier cases but Im lazy.

Show me a guitar player that isn't lazy lol..

[Guitarplayingfish]

hahaha

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by Isopod

LOL, too much tetosterone on this thread. When I go fishing I do it to have a good time and relax. CO comes up and wants to check my stuff I cooperate fully. Wants to look in my cooler, sure, why not? When they see I'm cooperative and not getting in their face about my rights and whether they have warrants, blah, blah, they keep it friendly, and we both continue our day happy. You guys can confront them and then come here and rant about it if you want, to each their own.

Testosterone?

Well if your a sheep that likes to be eaten by wolves, go for it.

Baa Baa Baa

[Isopod]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

Possession of bait where bait is banned can get you in trouble

Are you sure on this one? I just read the regulations and they talk about it being illegal to USE bait where it is banned, but they don't say it is illegal to possess it. I think most of us probably have some kind of powerbait or scented plastic lures hiding somewhere in our tackle boxes, and I know I certainly never go through my tackle box to remove them before going fishing. Some days I might do some fishing on the Red Deer where bait except maggots is banned, then if things are slow I might move to a trout pond or lake where bait and scented lures are allowed, surely the regs wouldn't expect me to buy new scented lures if I were switching venues during the day.

[Isopod]

Originally Posted by greylynx

Testosterone?

Well if your a sheep that likes to be eaten by wolves, go for it.

Baa Baa Baa

I guess I don't consider CO's as wolves. It's great to have rights when you want or need them to protect you. But having rights doesn't mean that you have to insist on using them all the time. It's nice that I have rights to protect me, but if a CO is doing his/her job at making sure people are following the fishing regs, and asks to see in my cooler, I'll gladly let them look so they can see I'm legit and move on. I haven't lost any of my rights in doing so, I've just chosen not to exercise them at that time.

[Guitarplayingfish]

Originally Posted by Isopod

I guess I don't consider CO's as wolves. It's great to have rights when you want or need them to protect you. But having rights doesn't mean that you have to insist on using them all the time. It's nice that I have rights to protect me, but if a CO is doing his/her job at making sure people are following the fishing regs, and asks to see in my cooler, I'll gladly let them look so they can see I'm legit and move on. I haven't lost any of my rights in doing so, I've just chosen not to exercise them at that time.

Well obviously that is the right thing to do, if you have nothing to hide than give them permission... but we're talking law here, not ethics.

[gatorhunter]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

A shack set up on the ice with provisions to sleep, ie bunks ect is considered a temporary residence. Does not need to be on land. A camper on the ice would be considered a temporary residence.

Ice hut is not a temp residence. No expectation of privacy with an ice shelter for fishing. Subject to search.

The act governing liquor in Alberta will define what type of structure would be considered a dwelling, etc. Here in Manitoba, there is absolutely no provision for consuming liquor in any structure in which a person does not actually live in. By law, a camper on open Crown does not meet the legal definition. A camper on an approved site in a campground that has authority to allow liquor does become a residence or dwelling.

While Game Wardens may enforce liquor laws, it is a police responsibility so you should consult the appropriate police agency to get your answer.

As for what constitutes reasonable grounds for belief, articulating the reasons for inspecting a cooler in the immediate area of fish and/or fishing activity is one of the easiest. Officer.......has been an officer for X number of years. During that time he/she has inspected thousands of anglers who utilize coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep their catch of fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has been an avid angler for X number of years. He/she utilizes coolers or other refrigerated containers to keep fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has provided volumes of evidence showing that anglers use coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep fish fresh. It is common practice for anglers to keep fish in coolers.

[crestliner]

Originally Posted by Isopod

I guess I don't consider CO's as wolves. It's great to have rights when you want or need them to protect you. But having rights doesn't mean that you have to insist on using them all the time. It's nice that I have rights to protect me, but if a CO is doing his/her job at making sure people are following the fishing regs, and asks to see in my cooler, I'll gladly let them look so they can see I'm legit and move on. I haven't lost any of my rights in doing so, I've just chosen not to exercise them at that time.

It is your right as to wether you give them permission to search your belongings. If you let them you are not giving up your right. You are exercising your right to allow them to search...... so no rights relinquished.....

[Guitarplayingfish]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

The act governing liquor in Alberta will define what type of structure would be considered a dwelling, etc. Here in Manitoba, there is absolutely no provision for consuming liquor in any structure in which a person does not actually live in. By law, a camper on open Crown does not meet the legal definition. A camper on an approved site in a campground that has authority to allow liquor does become a residence or dwelling.

While Game Wardens may enforce liquor laws, it is a police responsibility so you should consult the appropriate police agency to get your answer.

As for what constitutes reasonable grounds for belief, articulating the reasons for inspecting a cooler in the immediate area of fish and/or fishing activity is one of the easiest. Officer.......has been an officer for X number of years. During that time he/she has inspected thousands of anglers who utilize coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep their catch of fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has been an avid angler for X number of years. He/she utilizes coolers or other refrigerated containers to keep fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has provided volumes of evidence showing that anglers use coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep fish fresh. It is common practice for anglers to keep fish in coolers.

It is also common practice for anglers to keep beer, sandwichs and food in coolers... With no fish around, is my word not enough?

[Donkey Oatey]

Originally Posted by gatorhunter

The act governing liquor in Alberta will define what type of structure would be considered a dwelling, etc. Here in Manitoba, there is absolutely no provision for consuming liquor in any structure in which a person does not actually live in. By law, a camper on open Crown does not meet the legal definition. A camper on an approved site in a campground that has authority to allow liquor does become a residence or dwelling.

While Game Wardens may enforce liquor laws, it is a police responsibility so you should consult the appropriate police agency to get your answer.

As for what constitutes reasonable grounds for belief, articulating the reasons for inspecting a cooler in the immediate area of fish and/or fishing activity is one of the easiest. Officer.......has been an officer for X number of years. During that time he/she has inspected thousands of anglers who utilize coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep their catch of fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has been an avid angler for X number of years. He/she utilizes coolers or other refrigerated containers to keep fish as fresh as possible. Officer........ has provided volumes of evidence showing that anglers use coolers or other types of refrigerated containers to keep fish fresh. It is common practice for anglers to keep fish in coolers.

Yep. The Gaming and Liquor Act defines a temporary residence as.

(ff) “temporary residence” means
(i) a place that is used by a traveller in respect of which
the traveller pays a fee,
(ii) a vacation or recreational dwelling,
(iii) a tent that is set up in an area where overnight
camping is not prohibited,
(iv) a motor home or other vehicle that is parked in an
area that is not a highway or road and where
overnight camping is not prohibited, and
(v) a watercraft that has built-in living accommodation
and is moored in an area where moorage is not
prohibited
that is being used as a temporary private dwelling,
including any structure or land adjacent to the dwelling
that is used for the convenience or enjoyment of the
occupants of the dwelling;

So a cabin on the lake would be a temp residence. Temporary residences would need a warrant to search.

[kinwahkly]

Search all they want, if you follow the rules then there is nothing to worry about.

[thirty-30]

I always wondered about this scenario:

CO: Can I look in your cooler?

Person: -proceeds to get uppity about rights, etc-

CO: I'm sorry, Sir, but the vehemence with which you are protesting this makes me believe you have something to hide. I now have reasonable suspicion. Open the cooler. And while you're at it, your pockets, tackle box, truck, etc.

Then everyone is having a bad day. And if you had of just opened the cooler, nothing would have happened. Were I a CO, I'd do exactly that. The legislation is pretty vauge about what constitutes reasonable suspicion or not and someone acting like a dick could be perceived as trying to cover for something.


Why not just let him look and be done with it? In the end, he looks like a chump anyway, and I support them in their work.

I've been asked if my firearm was loaded in my vehicle before on the way to a hunting site, while it was in the back seat (not the front) and handed it over to be checked without hesitation despite it being a pretty stupid question in my mind.

You think if I got uppity about it the encounter would go well?

I figure I have nothing to hide, so who cares?

Now the other side to that is that I expect to be treated fairly and politely. These people are civil servants and I do not want to be treated like a criminal. I just don't see asking to have a look as doing that. If he comes up with an attitude, treating me like I've done something, sure, he can look and look like a chump, but I'm going to get his name and info and call in with a report about it.

The problem is, some people see a simple polite request as an accusation and it really isn't.

But I don't really have a problem helping them out doing their duties. They deal with people ****ing and moaning all day and copious amounts of attitude and ****... why give them more for doing their jobs?

Yeah, I'm not poaching or fish poaching or whatever you call it..... but maybe Jimmy Bob at the next site is, and I'd rather he be caught.

You don't -HAVE- to let him look in the cooler, but you -SHOULD- is the difference.

[fishunter]

Here is a question. Can a guy drink on the ice and is sleeping on the ice that same night?

[Mickey]

Originally Posted by thirty-30

I always wondered about this scenario:

CO: Can I look in your cooler?

Person: -proceeds to get uppity about rights, etc-

CO: I'm sorry, Sir, but the vehemence with which you are protesting this makes me believe you have something to hide. I now have reasonable suspicion. Open the cooler. And while you're at it, your pockets, tackle box, truck, etc.

Then everyone is having a bad day. And if you had of just opened the cooler, nothing would have happened. Were I a CO, I'd do exactly that. The legislation is pretty vauge about what constitutes reasonable suspicion or not and someone acting like a dick could be perceived as trying to cover for something.


Why not just let him look and be done with it? In the end, he looks like a chump anyway, and I support them in their work.

I've been asked if my firearm was loaded in my vehicle before on the way to a hunting site, while it was in the back seat (not the front) and handed it over to be checked without hesitation despite it being a pretty stupid question in my mind.

You think if I got uppity about it the encounter would go well?

I figure I have nothing to hide, so who cares?

Now the other side to that is that I expect to be treated fairly and politely. These people are civil servants and I do not want to be treated like a criminal. I just don't see asking to have a look as doing that. If he comes up with an attitude, treating me like I've done something, sure, he can look and look like a chump, but I'm going to get his name and info and call in with a report about it.

The problem is, some people see a simple polite request as an accusation and it really isn't.

But I don't really have a problem helping them out doing their duties. They deal with people ****ing and moaning all day and copious amounts of attitude and ****... why give them more for doing their jobs?

Yeah, I'm not poaching or fish poaching or whatever you call it..... but maybe Jimmy Bob at the next site is, and I'd rather he be caught.

You don't -HAVE- to let him look in the cooler, but you -SHOULD- is the difference.

I agree. With all of the people that constantly complain on this site about bad service and poachers and people stealing trail cams and their stuff, why not let these guys do their jobs a little more easily?

There are a few folks around here that need tinfoil hats.