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  #151  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:58 PM
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http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/hunti...tudy-1.1954926
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  #152  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shooter View Post
Have they ESRD, scientifically identified an issue with sheep? Not that I'm aware of. They are speculating.

Is there a real population problem at the moment? The last study shows the same data roughly since the 90's so I'm not seeing the issue.

We'd all love bigger sheep but at what cost, loss of hunting opportunity should be the last viable option... Not the first.

Here's the info Im referring to.
http://esrd.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife...Feb03-2012.pdf
As I said. If they reinstate grizz tags that's opening up hunting opportunities for hunters in sheep zones while controlling predators. Also same with if they up cougar tags in sheep zones. Also shows they are more into trophy quality them slashing your sheep hunting opportunities.
Someone said last season they kept picklejar closed to save sheep last season. I didn't believe it then but I'm starting to think he may have been right.
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  #153  
Old 12-05-2014, 08:04 PM
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One of the issues is ageing sheep. You can give a sheep to three different people and get three different answers on age. It was a topic of discussion at the seminars last year at WSF in Red Deer. The age collection may be very inaccurate for that reason. They were working on a solution to that but I'm not sure what's come from it.
I see, easiest way would be to pull a tooth and get some info like they do with CWD animals. Then compare the age with the horn structure. I would also add if we want some specialists at aging sheep maybe a bunch of taxidermists should be trained seeming how most sheep end up at a taxidermy shop after the wildlife office. There are ways we as hunters can help the government i'm sure.

Last edited by dshaw; 12-05-2014 at 08:11 PM.
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  #154  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:13 PM
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I would be for full curl, not shortening seasons if they reinstated grizz tags in units that need managed, upped cougar quotas and set dates for controlled burns. Until they show they care for the lively hood of sheep hunters and sheep, I see no reason to take it out on the hunters.
All good suggestions, but with the CMA boundaries being the FTR in many areaas, will increasing quotas actually do much? How many cats are actually getting killed in sheep country? These cat hunters don't get that far from their trucks. I think what's needed is to figure out how to get these guys chasing cats behind the front range. Changing boundries perhaps? Get the trappers targeting cats and not having them come off the quota for that area?
I would guess cats are the biggest killers on four legs of rams, and there's not many sheep killers getting taken out
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  #155  
Old 12-06-2014, 01:23 AM
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Stay focused man... stay unbanned.... lol...
X2. You have lots of passion and good intentions and lots of good stuff to contribute but sometimes you are so far out in left field I don't even know what the heck you are trying to get across.
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  #156  
Old 12-06-2014, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 7MM Mike View Post
WB,
I spent a fair amount of personal effort the last time changes were proposed, fighting for the regs to stay the same as many folks did. I conversed with Rob Corrigan via email about the situation and other options. The province claims to want to keep this as simple as possible for enforcement reasons.
that is the long and short of why they would likely never entertain an age based wait time system or something of that nature, which would be my first choice of any management change.

I don't think there is a serious issue with our sheep in the zones where the changes are proposed. But I am not opposed to some change that would benefit bighorn sheep populations in general and/or increase the number of mature rams / trophy quality.

I don't think WMU 400 is a good example of the outcome of full curl regs as the population was already at a critically low level (ewes and lambs included, and recruitment rates) due to factors others have already listed.

I believe that in a healthier population the results will be different. Call me blind or naive. Just an opinion.
You are not blind or naïve.

I agree with you on most. 400 is not a good example of what could come from some changes.

bdub, has said pretty much everything I would need to. I think he has a good grasp on why change wont hurt as much as some would like to lead us to believe.

I am not 100% sure what needs to be done, but IMO something needs to change and soon.
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  #157  
Old 12-06-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by MountainTi View Post
All good suggestions, but with the CMA boundaries being the FTR in many areaas, will increasing quotas actually do much? How many cats are actually getting killed in sheep country? These cat hunters don't get that far from their trucks. I think what's needed is to figure out how to get these guys chasing cats behind the front range. Changing boundries perhaps? Get the trappers targeting cats and not having them come off the quota for that area?
I would guess cats are the biggest killers on four legs of rams, and there's not many sheep killers getting taken out
Exactly! The only positive step I have heard of is WSFA is sponsoring some horseback hunts in some of the 400 zones. Not sure of all the details but it is a step forward. I think in select 400 zones trapppers should be allowed to target cats. That and put in a dogless season in the 400 zones as well. Maybe a few would be taken that way.
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  #158  
Old 12-06-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by martinnordegg View Post
Exactly! The only positive step I have heard of is WSFA is sponsoring some horseback hunts in some of the 400 zones. Not sure of all the details but it is a step forward. I think in select 400 zones trapppers should be allowed to target cats. That and put in a dogless season in the 400 zones as well. Maybe a few would be taken that way.


Sponsoring some horseback hunts? Can you explain more
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  #159  
Old 12-06-2014, 07:07 AM
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7 MM and Davey;

Can you elaborate on why you don't think that 400 is a good example of what can happen with these changes?
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  #160  
Old 12-06-2014, 07:24 AM
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What I was told by F&W was that they were looking at making every sheep zone a draw hunt and eliminating the 4/5 or full curl and making ANY ram legal. They were looking at this for three reasons; first, to cut down on the massive litigation costs pursuing charges against people who shoot short sheep. Most of these charges end up being thrown out in court anyway. Second, to reduce the # of rams shot and left after they are found out to be just short when the hunter gets to them. Third, to control the # of hunters in any given zone to make it a better experience and quality hunt. (I don't necessarily buy that argument). Again, just what I've been told first hand, don't shoot the messenger.
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  #161  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:28 AM
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Pdfish who at F&W and what title did they hold? Just calling and talking to a rank and file employee or even an officer does not necessarily equal correct information, it's amazing the amount of incorrect info that comes out of branch offices.
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  #162  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Some quick points. ..

I asked the WSFAb to inquire at the AGMAG meeting this week as to a rumour that f&w was going forward with a full curl regulation.

The result of the enquiry was an admission that there is a proposal to take effect for the 2016 seaon
- full curl from 434 south.
- shortened season for 302 400(already full curl)
- Yukon protocol for aging/measuring to be implemented
- regional registration centers will be established.

F&w wanted to have these changes in place for 2015 but ran out of time to do so.

We (wsf) are waiting for a copy of the proposal that will include concerns and supporting data. At the urging of the WSF, a stakeholders sheep meeting will held in early March 2016.
what is Yukon protocol?
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  #163  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mad mountain mike View Post
Pdfish who at F&W and what title did they hold? Just calling and talking to a rank and file employee or even an officer does not necessarily equal correct information, it's amazing the amount of incorrect info that comes out of branch offices.
I'm not at liberty to disclose the name of the person who shared the info with me. Trust me, he is not rank and file, nor officer.
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  #164  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by pdfish View Post
What I was told by F&W was that they were looking at making every sheep zone a draw hunt and eliminating the 4/5 or full curl and making ANY ram legal. They were looking at this for three reasons; first, to cut down on the massive litigation costs pursuing charges against people who shoot short sheep. Most of these charges end up being thrown out in court anyway. Second, to reduce the # of rams shot and left after they are found out to be just short when the hunter gets to them. Third, to control the # of hunters in any given zone to make it a better experience and quality hunt. (I don't necessarily buy that argument). Again, just what I've been told first hand, don't shoot the messenger.

This idea is complete ludicrous. If esrd thinks hunters are affecting the genetics now. Take a guess at how many non sheep hunters would be putting in a sheep draw and going out and shooting a banana ram. Let's fast forward five years down the road...... All you would see in the mountains is banana Rams

I have no doubt that givin time and our govt they will wreck this amazing resource of ours, one way or another.
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  #165  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:28 AM
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This idea is complete ludicrous. If esrd thinks hunters are affecting the genetics now. Take a guess at how many non sheep hunters would be putting in a sheep draw and going out and shooting a banana ram. Let's fast forward five years down the road...... All you would see in the mountains is banana Rams

I have no doubt that givin time and our govt they will wreck this amazing resource of ours, one way or another.
How would this be any different than the mule deer draw over most of the province. Is there a point or age restriction on mule deer? How has the population of mule deer in the province changed since most of it went to draw years ago?
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  #166  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:48 AM
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I'm in favour of it but would like to see an option that allowed harvesting broomed short old rams.
X2 That should be looked at no doubt we know of lots of legal Rams that meet this criteria that have been seen and can not be harvest. In most zones.
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  #167  
Old 12-06-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by pdfish View Post
What I was told by F&W was that they were looking at making every sheep zone a draw hunt and eliminating the 4/5 or full curl and making ANY ram legal. They were looking at this for three reasons; first, to cut down on the massive litigation costs pursuing charges against people who shoot short sheep. Most of these charges end up being thrown out in court anyway. Second, to reduce the # of rams shot and left after they are found out to be just short when the hunter gets to them. Third, to control the # of hunters in any given zone to make it a better experience and quality hunt. (I don't necessarily buy that argument). Again, just what I've been told first hand, don't shoot the messenger.
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I'm not at liberty to disclose the name of the person who shared the info with me. Trust me, he is not rank and file, nor officer.

When were you told this?

These options were brought to the table years ago, and defeated. Old news?
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  #168  
Old 12-06-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Roughneck Country View Post
what is Yukon protocol?
A more detailed measuring dataset.

It includes measuring the length of each years horn growth and circumference at each annulus. This allows for a much more detailed investigation into individual animal/ regional/climatic conditions factors that may have influenced horn growth.

I'm on my phone and can't access some pdfs for a further explanation right now, but have a look at this Yukon research paper that concludes the Alberta "hunter induced genetic change" sheep data research likely lead to false assumptions.


The role of phenotypic plasticity in responses of hunted thinhorn sheep ram horn growth to changing climate conditions
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.01948.x/full


At the conclusion of previous meetings on sheep management, it was agreed to initiate more detailed research before making any regulation changes. Many people worked hard and a bunch of money was raised to make this possible.

Now f&w is trying to push ahead with changes before the new research can provide new information. .... uh huh..... that says a lot....

Cont on next post....
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  #169  
Old 12-06-2014, 12:46 PM
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RESILIENT BIGHORN SHEEP
PROJECT

Newsletter # 1 -November 2013





The overall goal of the Resilient Bighorn Sheep
Project is to develop mechanisms, procedures and
management policies that ensure and maintain the
health of natural ecosystems and native wildlife
populations, specifically Bighorn Sheep, in the
Northern Rocky Mountains. The project area
includes all Bighorn Sheep range from the Red Deer
River drainage north to the Narraway River in British
Columbia, with the exception of Ram Mountain.

The project was initiated by Jeff Kneteman (Alberta
Environment and Sustainable Resources
Development (ESRD) – Wildlife Branch) as part of
his graduate thesis program in the Department of
Biological Sciences, University of Alberta
(supervised by David Hik).

This research is necessary because the
environments used by Bighorns, and other wildlife,
are changing, both through intensifying land use and
climate warming.

Our recent efforts are focused on determining how
many animals make up the basic population and the
extent of their natural range. We are focused on
analysis of composition (number of rams and ewes),
lamb survival, and seasonal or long-term
movements, and how these factors may affect the
overall health and sustainability of the population.

The most recent Ecological Resilience and
Bighorn Sheep workshop was held at the
University of Alberta on June 3, 2013. It brought
together people from ESRD-Wildlife Branch, the
University of Alberta (U of A) and interested groups
including the Alberta Fish and Game Association,
Wild Sheep Foundation, Alberta Professional
Outfitters Society and Safari Club International
(Northern Alberta Branch).

Jeff provided an overview and background to the
project and a summary of his research-to-date.
Analysis of the 40-year Bighorn Sheep census
dataset indicates that the population has been
relatively stable over the entire Northern Rockies.

However, at the Census Zone and Wildlife
Management Unit scale, it appears that rams and
ewes are leaving some areas and congregating in
others, in particular modified habitat associated with
mining in the Cadomin area. Lamb survivability is
also variable at a regional scale.

Two key questions are:


What enables populations to tolerate or benefit
from environmental change and what are the
limits to this tolerance?

How can we manage landscape disturbances to
be consistent with Bighorn Sheep population
“health”?
For more information contact Jeff Kneteman: jeff.kneteman@gov.ab.ca


Four Research Topics Were Identified

1. Demography of Sheep Populations – This
work takes advantage of existing census data
collection and is ongoing.
2. Genetic Structure of the Population – Fecal
samples were collected throughout the Northern
Rockies Bighorn Sheep range during the winter
2012-13 in order to develop new techniques for
determining genetic structure of the population.
This analysis will indicate whether there are distinct
genetic groups within the larger population and
whether population structure differs between
males and females. For example, is it possible to
tell a Willmore Bighorn Sheep from a Clearwater
Bighorn Sheep? Do genetic groupings of females
occupy smaller areas than genetic groupings of
males? If so, we may be able to trace the
movements of individuals from these distinct
populations into other areas. There is no existing
data that currently allows us to do this.
David Coltman’s lab (U of A) is responsible for
analyzing these fecal samples. During summer
2013, Beth Adamowicz began to develop DNA
extraction protocols for optimizing this process. In
October, Dr. Jamie Gorrell joined the project and
during the next months will continue the DNA
extraction protocols, complete the genotyping of
samples and begin the main analyses of this data.
At present we have 908 faecal group samples and
128 blood or muscle samples from 35 sites across
the Northern Rockies. We intend to collect more
faecal group samples from 4-5 sites west of the
Sulphur River and North of the Sheep Creek in
winter 2013/14; and expect to obtain muscle, blood
or hair samples from bighorns in the British
Columbia portion of the study area.

The Government of Alberta has supported the
collection of additional fecal samples through its
biennial Bighorn Sheep census efforts and funded
development of techniques to extract DNA from
fecal material.

3. Horn Growth Analysis – The annuli
circumference and length of Bighorn Sheep horns
can be used to infer the environmental conditions
experienced by sheep during their lives. When
compiled, this information will give us some insight
into the Bighorn habitat conditions dating back
several decades. The annuli analysis of these
horns will be used to construct an environmental
timeline in much the same way tree rings and deep
glacier ice cores are used to reconstruct prehistoric
climates. For horns to be useful to this effort the
year and approximate location of death must be
known.
Initial measurements will be made on the Wildlife
Branch’s inventory and horns offered by private
parties in the province. During fall 2013 a total of
147 horns held by Wildlife Branch were identified
as suitable for measurements. There is need for
private parties to make horns available for
measurement of annuli. We expect to work with
several groups to locate and measure horns.
Future workshops will be held to train individuals in
the Yukon Protocols for determining annuli
characteristics so that all measurements are
standardized. Letters will be sent to various clubs
soliciting access to these trophy horns. This task
will be undertaken by U of A and private partners.

4. Habitat/Landscape Evaluation – Satellite data
provides an opportunity to classify and map habitats
in the Northern Rockies. Appropriate images will be
identified, acquired and analyzed. Comparison of
these maps may give us some insight into the
changing vegetation conditions in the region and
their suitability for Bighorn Sheep. A U of A student,
with expertise in remote sensing and GIS, will be
recruited to undertake this task beginning in 2014.
Future Funding

During the workshop, there was considerable
discussion about potential sources of future funding
for these research efforts. Funds generated by the
Minister’s Permit were identified as one source,
since much of the revenue generated by a Minister’s
special permit is to be directed to management and
research on the species to which the tag applies.

Other sources include provincial agencies and
private organizations. Support for the genetic
analysis is being sought from the Alberta
Conservation Association grants program.

Broadening Participation

Workshop attendees recognized that other parties
should be included in these discussions. These
might include, but are not limited to, First Nations,
conservation groups, provincial and national parks
agencies, and policy makers. These groups will be
approached over the next few months to determine
their interest.

Communication

The U of A will take responsibility for facilitating the
communications among the interested parties.
Initially this will be done through a newsletter. The
project will eventually host a website where results
and other information can be shared.

For more information contact Jeff Kneteman: jeff.kneteman@gov.ab.ca
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  #170  
Old 12-06-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinkhammer View Post

And another... this one also touches on the concern that the Alberta data used by researchers to promote " hunting induced genetic change" is faulty due to its very nature of being to simplistic for such a conclusion.



The role of phenotypic plasticity in responses of hunted thinhorn sheep ram horn growth to changing climate conditions

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.01948.x/full
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:02 PM
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I wanted to point out the important part of the article posted and why changes are needed if we want to see healthier herds and more Rams of all age classes on Albertans sheep ranges.


It turns out shrinking horn sizes from the bighorn hunt aren't due to any unseen biological effect. Animals with big horns are rarer simply because hunters shoot lots of them.
"Any shift in the distribution of body mass among males is demographic," Traill said. "Changes are largely driven by the removal of larger animals
"There are simply fewer males."
That means that the number of big males with fully curled horns could easily rebound if they weren't targeted as much.
"Any decreased frequency of hunting will simply mean that fewer large males are being shot, and thus the likelihood of large males being found in the population may increase," said Traill.
He pointed out that letting big males breed is also good for the overall health of a herd.

"It will always be better to let males in their prime breed," said Traill, who added it remains "prudent practice" to target older males "past their mating prime."
Alberta Environment is examining its hunting regulations around bighorns to try to determine if adjustments need to be made to improve stocks.
"We are in the process of completing a new management plan for bighorn sheep," said spokeswoman Carrie Sancartier.
"Once that is completed there is expected to be a public discussion that will include harvest."
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:09 PM
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I don't believe that hunting is causing a genetic change in the herd causing horn size to decrease either. Indirectly it may to a certain extent as younger males may be doing a greater share of the breeding causing them to not put on as much horn during those years of life.

I would like to see a healthier balance of all age classes of Rams rather than the skewed population dynamics we see now. That's why I believe changes are needed.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:27 PM
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I don't believe that hunting is causing a genetic change in the herd causing horn size to decrease either. Indirectly it may to a certain extent as younger males may be doing a greater share of the breeding causing them to not put on as much horn during those years of life.

I would like to see a healthier balance of all age classes of Rams rather than the skewed population dynamics we see now. That's why I believe changes are needed.

What evidence are you basing the claim of "skewed dynamics" on?

According to f&w, the average age of harvested rams is increasing.


Assuming your conjecture of skewed dynamics is correct. ....

Explain how licenced hunting could be responsible for the problem when sheep populations have been stable to increasing for the last thirty years and licenced harvest has remained relatively stable.

If you cannot show that licenced hunting is the problem, then how will reducing licenced harvest solve the problem?
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
What evidence are you basing the claim of "skewed dynamics" on?

According to f&w, the average age of harvested rams is increasing.


Assuming your conjecture of skewed dynamics is correct. ....

Explain how licenced hunting could be responsible for the problem when sheep populations have been stable to increasing for the last thirty years and licenced harvest has remained relatively stable.

If you cannot show that licenced hunting is the problem, then how will reducing licenced harvest solve the problem?
I have no argument with the size of the population. It is stable. My argument is with the age class of ram we are targeting. What is the age class of the average ram taken in Alberta, 7.5 yrs? In other words the majority of the Rams harvested are Class 3 rams, rams 5-8 years old and we have virtually no class 4 Rams left in the population, certainly not at an optimum percentage of the male population. That is a skewed population dynamic in the ram herd.

We should have a much larger number of class 4 Rams in the population. How do we do that? Stop killing all the 5-8 year old Rams like we are now. By what means? Put it all on draw? Increasing horn curl from 4/5 to full curl? A combination. Something needs to change.
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Old 12-06-2014, 01:59 PM
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Ok so who do I send a cheque so I can have a voice in this issue? AFGA? WSF?

I am in favour of slot/age limits but total full curls? We've got 9 year olds that never made that due to brooming......

I'm in favor of asking for 8 rings, but even this won't work if they don't train and enforce it properly.
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  #176  
Old 12-06-2014, 02:44 PM
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I would hate to see the general areas turned into draw. That is a disaster in the making.

I'd rather a varied wait period imposed if there's really an identifiable problem.
The younger the sheep, the longer the wait between eligibility to hunt. It would make hunters more selective in certain instances knowing they have a long wait between sheep hunts if they decide to harvest a young immature ram.

Just for thought: (General Sheep Only)

Ram under the age of 6.5, 5 year sit out
Ram under the age of 7.5, 3 year sit out
Ram under the age of 8.5, 2 year sit out
Ram over the age of 8.5, 1 year as current sit out

The proper ageing would have to be essential at time of registration.

Last edited by shooter; 12-06-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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  #177  
Old 12-06-2014, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Ok so who do I send a cheque so I can have a voice in this issue? AFGA? WSF?

I am in favour of slot/age limits but total full curls? We've got 9 year olds that never made that due to brooming......

I'm in favor of asking for 8 rings, but even this won't work if they don't train and enforce it properly.
It's an issue with folks in all interest groups on both sides of the fence. I'm sure the outfitting industry is heavily against it due to the fact that increasing horn size restriction will put a serious damper on their success rates and pocketbook for a few years. Many outfitters are also in both the wsf and Afga. Lots of hunters wil be against it because they don't want to give up hunting opportunity even though it means a healthier herd and the chance at harvesting bigger rams down the road. I think we need to take a longer term view of the issue and do what is right for the sheep herd. You need to write in to the government and voice your concerns imo.
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Old 12-06-2014, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
How would this be any different than the mule deer draw over most of the province. Is there a point or age restriction on mule deer? How has the population of mule deer in the province changed since most of it went to draw years ago?
Because people who don't sheep hunt and don't grasp the concept of sheep hunting would kill sheep. So sheep hunting would turn into mule deer hunting without the quantity of sheep to support it. Sheep are not mule deer and they don't thrive in every zone throughout the province.
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Old 12-06-2014, 07:55 PM
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However if the gov starts to try and control sheep to more of a degree then it is now, by putting on full curl. Where is it going to end? The whitetail, mule deer and elk enthusiasts will want draws, to increase trophy quality. Where does it end, we will have no general tags in 10 years. We hunters are our own worst enemies. I too would like to see more mature Rams every year. However I have one and now I'm more in it for the experience every year and if I take one every ten years then so be it but I would like to be able to go every year.
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  #180  
Old 12-06-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Acesneights View Post
Because people who don't sheep hunt and don't grasp the concept of sheep hunting would kill sheep. So sheep hunting would turn into mule deer hunting without the quantity of sheep to support it. Sheep are not mule deer and they don't thrive in every zone throughout the province.
No doubt the number of tags and success rates would be far lower for sheep than muley and would have a bearing on number of tags issued per wmu.
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