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  #1  
Old 12-21-2006, 10:10 PM
willy
 
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Default crossbow season?

Any word on if they're gonna get 1 goin for next season? I think it would be great to get more out into the field hunting. Iknow the achery crowd will whine and bitch but who cares lets make a 2 week season just before rifle season where X-bows and other bow hunters can hunt. I'm lookin to buy one before spring.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2006, 11:12 PM
jrs
 
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Default

I don't think province wide this would be applicable. Maybe some of the primitive weapon areas or select zones. I'm kind of against it because i'd have to go buy one then Oh well, what harm would another toy be.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2006, 02:35 AM
Jamie Hunt
 
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Default

Why not??
Oh I know
The archery season would lose 2 weeks.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Stupid rules. I wonder who exactly the bow guys have pictures of in compromising positions??
While we are at it.. why not some Muzzle loaders?? Especially in the Bow zone?
Talk all you want about Modern Muzzles. But I think we could make it work.

Jamie
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  #4  
Old 12-22-2006, 07:52 AM
crossbows
 
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Default crossbows

weve had them in my state for years and it doesnt make a diff i dont use one but i for one dont see that much advatage in them other than not having to deal with the drawing motion and draw wieght wich some cant even the lower wieghts. i wish all places would have it by the time my arms and shoulders cant handle the draw any more.
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  #5  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:13 AM
Morbius131
 
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Default Re: crossbows

If this is going to be discussed again make sure we stick to the facts and regular discussion. Don't turn this into attacks on a person or a group.

Morb
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:24 AM
jrs
 
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Default Re: crossbows

"i for one dont see that much advatage in them other than not having to deal with the drawing motion"

Where i was bow hunting last year this was the biggest issue. When cover is very sparse and theres not even enough to sit up, a crossbow would make it a walk in the park (even if theres no other advantages) I can see it being appropriate in treed areas where this isn't really an issue. Just an idea, i really don't have a strong opinion on this one, but it would make coulee deer a lot more vulnerable, getting within 30 yards was easy, drawing your bow back at that point was almost always impossible.
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:52 AM
Rackmastr
 
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Default Re: crossbows

I'm all for crossbows and muzzleloaders having a season, but I personally dont think you can compare a crossbow to a compound, for the same reason you cant compare a longbow to a compound. The crossbow has advantages (such as less movement) in the same way that the compound has advantages to the longbow.

Personally I'd love to see seasons for each, but I dont want either to be lumped into 'archery' seasons...for obvious reasons.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:57 AM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Not certain the reasons are so obvious Trev. Certainly as you pointed out the crossbow requires less movement to shoot but other than that the crossbow and vertical bow are pretty well identical in performance with the slight nod actually going to the vertical bow. There are some good arguements to be made for including crossbows in archery season as they are in many states and provinces and there are also a few arguements for keeping them out. I can't help but think that getting hunters spending more days in the field is a good thing and certainly increasing crossbow opportunities would do that, just as increasin muzzleloader opportunities would as well.
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

"but it would make coulee deer a lot more vulnerable, getting within 30 yards was easy, drawing your bow back at that point was almost always impossible."

Yeah...for a good hunter...who knows where to go and how to get within 30 yrds....most guys that good...know how to get the draw on them too. Who you tryin to kid?:b

Its 99% hunter, 1% tool.

Let them in with the rest of the bows imo. P.s. i'm strictly a bowhunter for my big game...i love my new Mathews Switchback XT and my Legacy before it too(and have done very well with both). I have thought about them (and argued about them) quite a bit and i have no problem with them, i would like to see them allowed in to the archery seasons. The differences in statistics in states/provinces where they've been allowed is not even worth mentioning...they are bows...success in bowhunting comes down to the hunter...not the tool.

B
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:09 AM
Rackmastr
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Have there been any studies to show success rates with crossbows? I know for a fact I could have killed several more big deer this year with a crossbow. Simple movement alone blew shots or shot opportunities. I understand that the crossbow and compound dont have a pile in performance difference, but everyone must be able to admit that the fact remains that a crossbow can be held at draw with no movement, and shot off a bipod with a scope or red-dot reticle for MUCH higher shot percentage.

Like I said, I'm all for having a crossbow season, but I dont agree with just lumping it with the compound.

More hunters in the field, the better......and I'm not opposed to giving up some of my archery season for a cross-bow season.....
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  #11  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:09 AM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

"Each tool is different, and neither is a THREAT to others. I'm not a bowhunter who thinks that the crossbow is a threat. Like I've said since my first post, I support it. I support all types of hunting, but I do see differences, and hate it when I see people advocating trying to lump everything together. I'm not threatened, I just like to see my vertical bow in a different class because I know there is a TAD more skill involved. Kill rates, accuracy, speed, is all garbage as far as I'm concerned. The more hunters, the better. I've just become profieccient in what I do and dont appreciate other weapons comparing as if they are identical in skill level required."

Yet two of them are still already lumped together, the traditional and the compound. What's one more?

Well said btw and i see your point and don't totally disagree. My point is, where does it fit?

To me....its lumped in entirely the wrong spot...its not even close to a gun yet its lumped there...so who would even buy one? Anyhow, not the point, but where it does fit is in the archery seasons with the rest of the bows....imo.

B
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  #12  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:10 AM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Quote:
Do you feel more confident in making a shot with a rifle or a compound? Lets be honest here......when you're shaky and you are at full-draw with a compound, there is no comparison to being on a bipod and looking down a scope. Sometimes I find that crossbow enthusiasts try to downplay this. Why spend your time downplaying it? Its a fact that you are more solid on a bipod....you have less movement....you have a scope......BIG DEAL!! Crossbows STILL have every right to be in the field hunting.
I've never seen a crossbow user shoot off a bipod or shooting sticks. I guess it could be done but crossbows are cumbersome and bulky enough already so I don't see a big advantage.

I think you are downplaying your skill level Trev if you feel a a couple hours with a crossbow could make someone as profient as you with your 13 years of compound experience. Yes, crossbows do have a shallower learning curve but there is a learning curve none the less. A very proficient compound shooter should be more accurate than a very proficient crossbow shooter. Competition bears that out time and time again.
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  #13  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Chung
 
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Default Re: crossbows

I agree with Rackmaster the differences between the bows.
The traditional bow hunters (long / recurve) probably had the same feelings toward compound bows when they first came out. But for people who have injuries that prevnt them from bow hunting, a primitive weapons season this would be a dream come true ( all bows and muzzle loaders).

Just me being jealous of the people who get to hunt a longer season than me
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  #14  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:21 AM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: crossbows

"Have there been any studies to show success rates with crossbows?"

Internet search...there was a beauty discussion on ABA a year or two ago and lots of excellent data but essentially the difference is so minimal it's not worth mentioning imo. I saw studies from several states that watched it pretty close and i believe there is a province or two that see no difference worth mentioning either. There's info all over the place as its been a hot topic over the past few years...continent wide.

Hey, did you score with your bow then? What makes you think you wouldn't have blown it with a crossbow? I've played out certain scenerio's where i think it would have helped me also but i still got what i was after anyhow, the hunter was still in the right places at the right times. Only a certain percentage of guys will be in those positions and generally they are gonna score with either tool in their hands. A good hunter is a good hunter...you can put a rookie in the right spot with either tool and their just as likely to blow it...same as how many rookies get beat by buck fever even with guns in their hands.

B
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  #15  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:35 AM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: crossbows

"Just me being jealous of the people who get to hunt a longer season than me "

We would all probably have different reasons for choosing either bow...the hardcore go for the traditional equipment because they want that challenge. I would like to see them as i think they are a neat weapon and i'd like to use it coyote calling etc. from time to time(you think its hard to draw on a deer...try a coyote) and to also be able to take people i know into the archery seasons who aren't going to be as dedicated as me. I'm quite positive i would be much happier doing my own deer with my Switchback but one of the things i like to do is take new people(family/friends) and bows are a high practice item/sized to the individual etc. so you don't hand a trad or compound bow to someone else. As it is i have lots of bowhunting permission but zip for gun hunting permission, i managed to find a saturday to get my wife her first deer with a rifle last season but was a one time deal....if we had a crossbow then we could have had her deer alot sooner. Thats just me...i'd rather not have to try and find both types of permissions...i don't like Nov outside the bowzone...way too many yahoos running around for my tastes.

I can also see other reasons they are good, for those a little older and bad shoulders etc. to enjoy more opportunities afield etc.

Eitherway, the data supports it as a bow, regardless your reasons for wanting to shoot one weapon over another...its like choosing calibers....short fat for thick stuff, long skinny flat for the prairie stuff etc. same thing. Big picture...they are a bow.

B
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  #16  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:35 AM
Rackmastr
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

No, I didnt score but I pass on lots of good opportunities and I missed a couple of deer. I've been archery hunting since I was 12 and am a very confident archery hunter, but I know that I could put a crossbow in someones hand and they would shoot as well as I can within 2 hours as it took me in 13 years.

Do you feel more confident in making a shot with a rifle or a compound? Lets be honest here......when you're shaky and you are at full-draw with a compound, there is no comparison to being on a bipod and looking down a scope. Sometimes I find that crossbow enthusiasts try to downplay this. Why spend your time downplaying it? Its a fact that you are more solid on a bipod....you have less movement....you have a scope......BIG DEAL!! Crossbows STILL have every right to be in the field hunting.

Seems most crossbow enthusiasts take too much time comparing, when all they should do is spend more time advocating for a season. They are different weapons, which require different skills, and different abilities. End of story. Argue it till you're dead, but they are different weapons IMO and should be treated differently (even if slightly differently).

I am more confident with my bow than some rookies are with their gun, but yet people dont compare a rifle or a bow. They just accept they are different methods of hunting and accept they are both responsible. A crossbow is a responsible way of hunting, and should be given its time in the season. For the same reason that muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, are not allowed in the archery season, I think the crossbows should not be allowed either. There needs to be seperation IMO....
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  #17  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:37 AM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: crossbows

A couple things Trev....the difference in harvest rates are virtually identical between crossbows and compound bows in studies conducted in a number of states and in Ontario.

As for the crossbow being more accurate...not so. In top end 3D competition where the two compete side by side, the compound bow is traditionally the winner.
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  #18  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:42 AM
Rackmastr
 
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Default Re: crossbows

I would never say the crossbow is more accurate....sorry if I inferred that....I simply said it was probably an easier tool to master. I think if I shot side by side with a crossbow shooter, I could probably beat him in a 3d shoot, but it also took me 13 years to become proffiecient enough to do so.

I think of the crossbow the same way that I would think of the compound if I was a longbow shooter. Its a much harder tool to master, and if I was a longbow hunter, I would be looking for earlier seasons for traditional archery only....

Surely crossbow enthusiasts can agree that some tools are easier to master than others?

Again, I'm a supporter of the season. I'd just like to hear why crossbow enthusiasts are so worried about being a part of the archery season? Do they have to overlap? I really could care less if the archery season was first or the crossbow season was first.....but they're different and should be treated differently.....
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  #19  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:44 AM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

"As for the crossbow being more accurate...not so. In top end 3D competition where the two compete side by side, the compound bow is traditionally the winner."

That is some very cool info! Doesn't surprise me...seen many a guy pick up my bow and try and hold it out...and think how hard it would be to hold it still. But when you draw it back to anchor its like a rock...i can hold my bow steadier at draw than i can a rifle freehand...i use guns for predator calling but very very rarely do i shoot unless off sticks.

The crossbow has its disadvantages. Better make first one count, good luck getting a redraw in time...plus noisier than bows so they are gonna booger off not giving chance at a second shot anyhow. Also, don't pick the thing up until ready to shoot, kind of like drawing the bow, don't do it until ready to go otherwise your gonna end up holding it for too long and start shakin like a leaf. Also, compounds are arguably better at long range as they carry the energy much further than the crossbows, bigger longer arrows lose less energy...they are probably equal to about 50 yrds but the compound will start gaining from there...if i remember right from the discussions. So as much as people think crossbows are good for 100 yrds, lol, nope, same ranges as compound....anyone who thinks different will learn pretty quick how much a 'bow' the crossbow really is.

B
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:48 AM
Rackmastr
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

Blake,
Can you not agree that shooting off a bipod or shooting sticks should make the crossbow easier to master than the bow? Seems this point is always avoided. I know the crossbow has its disadvantages...so does the bow, and so does the slingshot. But each have their advantanges and why worry about trying to blend together?

I'm a compound hunter, but by no means do I compare my compound to a longbow.....or point out the disadvantages to my compound vs the longbow. I simply have an advantage in mastering the compound....no doubt about it.
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  #21  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:51 AM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

With the technology in todays compounds myself, my partner and a few others we seen get into it were drilling good groups within a couple hours. The consistancy takes a bit of time but even still, the stuff nowadays doesn't take long to learn, get your pins set...then its all down to the 'hunter' again. Yeah, good hunters could probably make good use of the crossbow, you and i can envision many new ways we could utilize the tool. But you and i can consistantly get it done with a compound too. Hey, what can i say, the stats are out there...you'll see...its no threat to the archery seasons. You and i probably wouldn't be satisfied going to that now that we're good with the compound. Doesn't matter either way.

Just as anyone can find a way to screw it up with a compound, there are probably just as many ways to do it with a crossbow. Must be, stats are out there to prove it.

B
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  #22  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:56 AM
Whupapup
 
Posts: n/a
Default Crossbows

I,m in the same category as Joaks. I have enjoyed hunting with my Hoyt for years..Now,being somewhat senior, I find it too difficult to handle an effective draw weight with the same proficiency and confidence as in earlier years.
I thinks it's time to include crossbows in the general Archery season. If that idea isn't acceptable to the hardcore "archers", at least include crossbows for use on PRIVATE LAND during the archery season.This way, no one will be adversly affected.
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  #23  
Old 12-22-2006, 11:58 AM
Rackmastr
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

Quote:
With the technology in todays compounds myself, my partner and a few others we seen get into it were drilling good groups within a couple hours.
Exactly.....and compound hunters dont preach to longbow shooters about being in the same class of skill level. I can give a compound to a beginner and have him shooting good within half a day. I can give a crossbow to a beginner and have him shooting good within a couple of hours. I can give a longbow to a person and it may take him a week or more to become HALF as good.

Each tool is different, and neither is a THREAT to others. I'm not a bowhunter who thinks that the crossbow is a threat. Like I've said since my first post, I support it. I support all types of hunting, but I do see differences, and hate it when I see people advocating trying to lump everything together. I'm not threatened, I just like to see my vertical bow in a different class because I know there is a TAD more skill involved. Kill rates, accuracy, speed, is all garbage as far as I'm concerned. The more hunters, the better. I've just become profieccient in what I do and dont appreciate other weapons comparing as if they are identical in skill level required.

The muzzleloader hunter also doesnt want to hear how the rifle should be allowed in MZ seasons, and how they are so similar that they should be lumped together. Its insane to think that they require the exact same skill and should be lumped into one category of 'long guns' and I wouldnt appreciate it if I was an accomplished muzzleloader hunter.

Just my take...
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  #24  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:03 PM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

"Blake,
Can you not agree that shooting off a bipod or shooting sticks should make the crossbow easier to master than the bow? Seems this point is always avoided."

Will have to rig a system up for in the treestand (and blind for that matter) . Would it be nice to be able to sit and use sticks or lay and us a bi-pod...sure would. But i can set up a portable blind or a treestand on any trail etc. and do it with my compound too. Would that make it a little easier for a guy like me...yeah. Does that let the rest of the hunters get into the exact same spots with the exact same game etc.? Nope, either one and i'll get the job done...it really is that simple. 99% hunter 1% tool.

When i first heard about this topic a few years ago my kneejerk reaction was 'hell no don't let them in...they are guns'...but i read, and read some more, i open mindedly listened to the arguments and made my own conclusions. Wasn't long before the stats showed enough to confirm those conclusions....in terms of archery seasons and its effectiveness etc......its a 'bow'. May not be defined as 'archery equipment' because its not 'held at draw'...fine by me....but in terms of bowhunting in archery seasons, then the seasons should have the name changed to 'bow seasons' to accomodate a tool that certainly fits in there alot closer that to any other season(including its own).

B
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:03 PM
sheep hunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

Quote:
Again, I'm a supporter of the season. I'd just like to hear why crossbow enthusiasts are so worried about being a part of the archery season? Do they have to overlap? I really could care less if the archery season was first or the crossbow season was first.....but they're different and should be treated differently.....
I don't think they are worried about being included in archery season...they just want an opportunity to hunt and rather than creating a new season, which would cause archers or rifle hunters to give up a portion of their season, the crossbow hunters are just following what has been done in a large number of states and provinces where crossbows are included in regular archery season. I doubt you'll ever see extended seasons in this province, so for there to be a dedicated crossbow season someone would have to give up a portion of theirs. I guess rather than reinventing the wheel, the simplest solution seems to be to follow the lead of many of the other states and provinces that allow crossbows in archery season.

As for crossbows being easier to master...no question they are but I see that as a positive. I mean I'd rather have archers that are more proficient with their weapons in the field. When it comes right down to it though, it's the skill of the hunter that matters and getting within range is the real challenge with either weapon.
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  #26  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:14 PM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

"As for crossbows being easier to master...no question they are but I see that as a positive. I mean I'd rather have archers that are more proficient with their weapons in the field. When it comes right down to it though, it's the skill of the hunter that matters and getting within range is the real challenge with either weapon."

Imagine if we weren't allowed compounds(only traditional equipment)...how many deer would be running around with arrows sticking out of their necks and arses eh?:lol

Joking aside, thats an awesome point. After all considerations i can make...there is way more positive(way way more) than negative to the motion imo.

Yeah, you still have to get within range, still have to get a shot opportunity, still have to move and release the shot at the right time. Whether your sitting/laying/standing...those differences are moot....its still bowhunting...its still that difficult to even get a good shot opportunity. All it is is another tool we can play with if we want...to me it only opens more doors...its more opportunity in our shrinking sports etc. Its all good in my book.

B
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  #27  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Blakeinator2
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

Should be some fire burning beside this thread in no time!:lol

B
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  #28  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Whupapup
 
Posts: n/a
Default crossbows

Maybe there is too much emphasis on the so-called advantages of either choice. I don't think that is the issue.
What is important is that those who choose one or the other have the same opportunities to participate .
Who really cares about an "advantage"..or skill level. It,s all about equal opportunity.
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:41 PM
Rackmastr
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

I know what you guys mean about archers and rifle hunters not wanting to give up part of their season....but I would gladly do it.

I'd love to see crossbows introduced. I know of a few 180+ deer that would have got thumped this year if that was the case.

One thing I'd ask, is if crossbows dont want to be lumped into archery hunting, why is it so important to have the crossbow season with the archery season, and not just with the rifle season as it is right now? I have no problem archery hunting during rifle season, so I'm just wondering....

Anways, this will be an ongoin subject and I'm not going to keep posting my thoughts in a repeated fashion. Not really sure why I'm even making these points, as I support crossbow hunting. I also support a muzzleloader season, as I know most do. TJ, would you like to see a muzzleloader only season, or are you happy with it in the rifle season?

Guess theres lots of things to chat about. Hopefully one day we'll see some form of season for crossbows.....
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  #30  
Old 12-22-2006, 12:43 PM
OutdoorChet
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

I don't understand why everything has to be made so easy for people. In my opinion, the thing that makes archery season great is that there is a lot less competition from other hunters because it takes a more dedicated hunter to learn how to hunt with a vertical bow than other legal weapons. There are generous general seasons in place that allow you to hunt with any legal weapon. Equipment restrictions help preserve the quality hunting experience that archery season is all about. No one is prevented from participating, it just requires a bit of dedication.

It's true that crossbows have more in common with vertical bows than firearms and they are effective hunting weapons. I don't know how great of an effect that including crossbows in archery season would have on overall hunter numbers in archery season but I know I'm glad there isn't 200 more hunters at the same priority level as me for 408 archery sheep or I would be too old to climb by the time I got drawn for it.

I think making it easier to access the archery season would have a negative effect on the archery hunting experience. Archery season isn't really about population control, general season is the main event for that.

I know lots of people think its a selfish opinion but I don't really think so. It's open to everyone - even those with disabilities that are unable to use a vertical bow.

Chet
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