Hunting dogs or dogs hunting??

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So you are asking for an exception for dogs on 6 ft. tether?

Since there is no rule there is no exception to ask for. I run an e-collar on my dog right now as he's still in training but once fully trained I'd have no issues with him off leash with no e-collar. I'd say adopt the Yukon regulations......they put the responsibility squarely in the hands of the dog handler. You decide what you need to make your dog comply with the regulations.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am not confused at all.

FC....it works everywhere else. Why would it not work in AB??

tm

Originally Posted by cover

There are so many angles to this discussion it is hard to debate ....but if one spent most of their time in the sticks and alpine it would not take much for most border collies to figure out what you want .... check out www.versatiledogs.com and search the collie that knows lots of words... LOL

Your talking to someone that's had stock dogs all their life...I know what they can do and what they can't and it's somewhat a moot point anyhow because having a dog assist in the hunt would be illegal.

[FCLightning]

You need an easily identifiable definition of "in control". That is the only thing to me that would remove all doubt as to interpretation of the rule. There is a wide variation in what dog owners and outside observers would consider in control, just as there is a wide variation in things that could be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt". A 6 ft. tether law would suit me just fine - I have advocated for such for a long time as I see no reason to not have a leashed tracking dog to aid in the recovery of wounded big game - in fact it is a travesty to the animals that we still have a restriction against such IMO.

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am not confused at all. There is far too much room for interpretation of what may or may not constitute aiding in the hunt. You are opening a large grey area of enforcement when enforcement is difficult enough already.

What's grey about this..

“It is unlawful to: allow your dog to chase or molest big game animals, furbearing animals or specially protected wildlife.”

Originally Posted by FCLightning

You need an easily identifiable definition of "in control". That is the only thing to me that would remove all doubt as to interpretation of the rule. There is a wide variation in what dog owners and outside observers would consider in control, just as there is a wide variation in things that could be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt". A 6 ft. tether law would suit me just fine - I have advocated for such for a long time as I see no reason to not have a leashed tracking dog to aid in the recovery of wounded big game - in fact it is a travesty to the animals that we still have a restriction against such IMO.

Once the dog gets involved in covery of game you may have a point...I'm just asking that a dog be permitted to walk beside you and carry your lunch and in no way assist in the hunt or recovery.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Since there is no rule there is no exception to ask for.

? The rule is no dogs. You want an exception to the rule. Having an open ended interpretation of "in control" is asking for an enforcement nightmare and a PR boondoggle.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I run an e-collar on my dog right now as he's still in training but once fully trained I'd have no issues with him off leash with no e-collar. I'd say adopt the Yukon regulations......they put the responsibility squarely in the hands of the dog handler. You decide what you need to make your dog comply with the regulations.

So long as your decision is not at odds with the outside person observing you and making the complaint/charge.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

You need an easily identifiable definition of "in control". That is the only thing to me that would remove all doubt as to interpretation of the rule. There is a wide variation in what dog owners and outside observers would consider in control, just as there is a wide variation in things that could be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt". A 6 ft. tether law would suit me just fine - I have advocated for such for a long time as I see no reason to not have a leashed tracking dog to aid in the recovery of wounded big game - in fact it is a travesty to the animals that we still have a restriction against such IMO.

So you are against the granola crunchers out there enjoying nature with their dogs off leash at the present time??

Could someone in the know address how/when it became possible to hunt cougar in AB with dogs??

tm

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Once the dog gets involved in covery of game you may have a point...I'm just asking that a dog be permitted to walk beside you and carry your lunch and in no way assist in the hunt or recovery.

Why.....is it not an ethical responsibility of the hunter to make every attempt to recover game?? Jack Russel's are used for game recovery all over the world. Not sure they would be much of a threat to moose or deer.

tm

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

So you are against the granola crunchers out there enjoying nature with their dogs off leash at the present time??

Could someone in the know address how/when it became possible to hunt cougar in AB with dogs??

tm

Granola crunchers? What could their dog possibly do that could ever in any way be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt"? There is no law that could currently be broken by them being out with a dog at any time. Right now the law is that if you are hunting - leave the dog behind. Reasonable unless there are some hard, fast, easily identifiable definitions of what constitutes aiding in the hunt and/or in control.

[podman]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Granola crunchers? What could their dog possibly do that could ever in any way be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt"? There is no law that could currently be broken by them being out with a dog at any time. Right now the law is that if you are hunting - leave the dog behind. Reasonable unless there are some hard, fast, easily identifiable definitions of what constitutes aiding in the hunt and/or in control.

As stated about Granola crunchers, their dogs are up there and are not causing problems as far as I have ever understood. Most likely hunters dogs would be the same only better as they are often better trained from my personal experience. Also I grew up working on one of the larger sheep ranches in Southern Alberta and we didn't have dogs, but when someone brought a dog along it did not work because the sheep were not conditioned as mentioned by others. If you had a poll I am sure you would find most hunters would feel a dog would hinder and not help them with big game hunting except for cougars and bears.

[Zippbuster]

My dog comes everywhere with me. I work in remote places with lots of wildlife around.....I hunt, fish, hike, camp some of those places and my dog comes with me...whether its rivers, lakes, mountains....i don't know squat about training but I sure don't want her chasing game...so she doesn't, however we worked that out....as for legalities....when she sees game she stares a laser at them and vibrates but knows death awaits her should she try it...in the instances where I haven't seen game, yet notice her laser/vibrations, should I crawl on my lips to the nearest CO and throw myself at his/her feet?...a good dog is an amazing companion whether you're hunting or not so i don't wanna go without...and the peace of mind in the walltent at night with the wife and kids along is priceless...shes got a bear bark too...30lb keg of dynamite she is.

Everytime someone thinks something needs to be a law, we all lose.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Granola crunchers? What could their dog possibly do that could ever in any way be interpreted as "aiding in the hunt"? There is no law that could currently be broken by them being out with a dog at any time. Right now the law is that if you are hunting - leave the dog behind. Reasonable unless there are some hard, fast, easily identifiable definitions of what constitutes aiding in the hunt and/or in control.

I think you are having a problem understanding that we are talking about a dog "accompanying" the hunter. As far as hiker's go, their dogs can chase and harass wildlife just the same as a hunters dog.

A dogs job on a hunt is to keep you safe while you sleep. For the rest of the time it stays close to you and is quiet.....if not.....it WILL screw up the hunt.

tm

[FCLightning]

Why is the law there? Is it to prevent dogs from "causing problems"? Not likely or there would be restrictions against all dogs at all times - especially birthing season. The only reason would be an idea that we should not be using dogs in the hunting of big game animals (with the exception of cougar) in Alberta. Dogs are used in the hunting of nearly every species of big game in some way in some part of the world. It is the concept of ethics, fair chase and custom that currently limits us. Open it up and you WILL have folks using dog in their pursuit of Sheep. Successfully or not is open to interpretation just as what constitutes success in the pursuit of game birds with dogs is highly variable. Allowing hunters to be accompanied by dogs would force us to re-evaluate what we as a society would deem to be acceptable in regards to the use of dogs while hunting for big game. Until that debate happens with clearly delineated results the grey areas of enforcement would overshadow any perceived benefits IMO.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

? The rule is no dogs. You want an exception to the rule. Having an open ended interpretation of "in control" is asking for an enforcement nightmare and a PR boondoggle.


So long as your decision is not at odds with the outside person observing you and making the complaint/charge.

We already have CAPITOL PUNISHMENT WITHOUT A TRIAL on the books for private animals that harrass wildlife. No worries on "defining in control".

Damage or threat caused by private animals
80(1) In this section, “privately owned animal” means any animal
that is not owned by the Crown.
(2) If a wildlife officer or wildlife guardian believes that a
privately owned animal is harassing wildlife, the officer or
guardian may order the owner or the person in charge of that
animal to confine it in the manner directed by the officer or
guardian and that person shall comply with the order, but this
subsection does not apply to the extent that that animal is a dog and
the wildlife is (a) big game being hunted in accordance with section
45(2)(b), or
(b) other wildlife being hunted if the hunter is lawfully
entitled to hunt that wildlife and the use of a dog for that
hunting is not prohibited by law.
(3) Where a privately owned animal
(a) harasses or poses a threat to the life or health of wildlife,
other than where that animal is a dog being used under the
circumstances described in subsection (2)(a) or (b), or
(b) is damaging or is likely to damage wildlife habitat,
an officer or guardian may, if it is in the public interest to do so and
the officer or guardian believes that doing so will protect the
wildlife or the habitat, capture or destroy or attempt to capture or
destroy the privately owned animal.(4) Where a privately owned animal is believed to pose an
immediate danger to any person or is damaging or is imminently
likely to damage property, an officer or guardian may, if it is in the
public interest to do so and the officer or guardian believes that
doing so will remove the danger or prevent the damage or further
damage, capture or destroy or attempt to capture or destroy the
animal.
(5) An officer or guardian and the Crown are not liable for the
death of or any injury to the privately owned animal resulting from
anything done under this section.
RSA 2000 cW-10 s80;2002 c30 s33


(2) Where a person is convicted by a court of an offence against
this Act in relation to section 19(3), 22, 24(1), 33(1)(c), 37(1) or
(2), 39, 40(1), (2) or (7), 41(1), 45(1)(b) or 51(1) or, if the offence
is in respect of wildlife that is not a bird of prey or an endangered
animal, section 55(1), a justice may cancel all that person’s
recreational licences and suspend that person’s right to obtain or
hold any such licence for a period of one year, 2 years, 3 years, 4
years or 5 years.

(2) A person who is convicted of an offence against this Act under
circumstances where subsection (1) does not apply is liable to a
fine of not more than $50 000 or to imprisonment for a term of not
more than one year, or both.

[Redfrog]

FClightning, do you work for the gov't?

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Why is the law there? Is it to prevent dogs from "causing problems"? Not likely or there would be restrictions against all dogs at all times - especially birthing season. The only reason would be an idea that we should not be using dogs in the hunting of big game animals (with the exception of cougar) in Alberta. Dogs are used in the hunting of nearly every species of big game in some way in some part of the world. It is the concept of ethics, fair chase and custom that currently limits us. Open it up and you WILL have folks using dog in their pursuit of Sheep. Successfully or not is open to interpretation just as what constitutes success in the pursuit of game birds with dogs is highly variable. Allowing hunters to be accompanied by dogs would force us to re-evaluate what we as a society would deem to be acceptable in regards to the use of dogs while hunting for big game. Until that debate happens with clearly delineated results the grey areas of enforcement would overshadow any perceived benefits IMO.

Exactly....why is there a law??

It has been open here and in many places for a VERY long time. There is no where in the world that I have ever seen a successful sheep hunt utilizing dogs to "hunt" them. There however has been hundreds, if not thousands of sheep harvested in N. America while the hunter was accompanied by a dog.

What we as a society deem ethical has already been decided by the majority. My question is as to why Alberta deems it necessary to single out hunters in this situation and fall into the minority while it does so.

tm

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Zippbuster

t....as for legalities....when she sees game she stares a laser at them and vibrates but knows death awaits her should she try it...in the instances where I haven't seen game, yet notice her laser/vibrations, should I crawl on my lips to the nearest CO and throw myself at his/her feet?...

I wonder if, by definition of the law, the dog would be aiding in the hunt if he saw an animal first and "told" you that it was there?

[Duk Dog]

Having had dogs all my life I personally fail to see how a dog could be used to hunt say an elk, moose, deer, sheep etc.. I just don't see it. I can however easily see a number of ways they would be a detriment. I think it would be great to be spiked out in the mtns in a tent with a dog along - for company, to assist with packing some gear, to act as an alarm in bear country etc.. I personally couldn't see taking my current nearly 10 year old dog on such a trip, but could easily see starting out my next dog from day 1 trained to accompany on these sorts of trips if it was allowed. It would certainly at least join me on summer hiking treks in the mtns.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Exactly....why is there a law??

It has been open here and in many places for a VERY long time. There is no where in the world that I have ever seen a successful sheep hunt utilizing dogs to "hunt" them. There however has been hundreds, if not thousands of sheep harvested in N. America while the hunter was accompanied by a dog.

What we as a society deem ethical has already been decided by the majority. My question is as to why Alberta deems it necessary to single out hunters in this situation and fall into the minority while it does so.

tm

This law is residual legislation from the first Wildlife Act, approx 1906. The first hunting regulations made it illegal to allow dogs to chase ungulates. It is time to update this law!


A quick check of provincial laws regarding hunting ungulates with dogs. There may be errors in this.

Yes = Dogs can accompany. No Chasing (hounding).

B.C. - Yes.
Yukon - Yes.
NWT - Yes.
Nunavut - Yes.
Ontario - Yes. Hounding may be allowed
Quebec - Yes. Hounding may be allowed.
Nova Scotia - Yes.
New Brunswick - Yes. Hounding may be allowed.

8 out of 13 Provincial/Territories allow dogs to accompany ungulate hunters.

Lets make it 9 out of 13.



Here is the "Hunting with dogs" thread from last year.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...hunting&page=2

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Having had dogs all my life I personally fail to see how a dog could be used to hunt say an elk, moose, deer, sheep etc.. I just don't see it. I can however easily see a number of ways they would be a detriment. I think it would be great to be spiked out in the mtns in a tent with a dog along - for company, to assist with packing some gear, to act as an alarm in bear country etc.. I personally couldn't see taking my current nearly 10 year old dog on such a trip, but could easily see starting out my next dog from day 1 trained to accompany on these sorts of trips.

Don't count em' out Duk.....slow and steady is perfect

tm

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

This is not what is being questioned.

I would like to see a hunter allowed to be accompanied by his dog while hunting in the same manner that a non-hunter is able to have their dog with them.

As it is right now, I think it is legal in AB to hunt with dog if you were pursuing cougar (which obviously some one changed in the regs unless they don't consider them "big game") so it is possibly not as "tough" a process as we are making it out to be.

I would think that you could have your dog with you if you had a moose/sheep/deer tags in your pocket.....as long as you had a cougar tag in there as well.

tm

That would be a loop hole if the seasons overlapped but there are not many WMU's that are late season and even fewer that are cougar managment WMU's that have a late deer elk or moose season.

I have my Brit in the truck along with my shotgun lots of times in November if the dogs out then I'm Bird hunting and I have nothing like a slug on me or in my vehicle that could cause reason to doubt I was birding at the time.

I am 100% behind Pack dogs for Big Game hunting no leash but a Pack and means of control ie: E collar would make sense to me.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This law is residual legislation from the first Wildlife Act, approx 1906. The first hunting regulations made it illegal to allow dogs to chase ungulates. It is time to update this law! [/url]

If this is true....and I have no doubt that it is, then the law was updated at some point to allow the hunting of cougars with dogs. Could the same conduit not be utilised to expedite the updating of the regs....or at least address the thought??

tm

ps....."hounding" is allowed up here for Polar Bear and Wolverine

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Don't count em' out Duk.....slow and steady is perfect

tm

In the very least I hope that he will join me on some 2011 summer conditioning treks and see how he manages. I took him on a couple smaller hikes this past summer and it was nice to have him around - especially when he got the initial ants out of his pants and he realized he'd better pace himself. lol

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

What's grey about this..

“It is unlawful to: allow your dog to chase or molest big game animals, furbearing animals or specially protected wildlife.”

I see allot of grey there.

Perhaps in the case of using pack dogs for big game hunting an addition to the current regs is needed. For example:

"Pack dogs must remain within XX feet of their handler and under his direct control at all times." or words to that effect.

That way the onus is on the dog handler to decide whether or not his particular dog should be tethered or not (or even be out there). Also, if a dog is within a set distance from his handler there is no confusion over whether or not he is assisting in the hunt.

Something like that would be allot easier to enforce and would remove any grey area. Responsible dog owners with the right dog shouldn't have a problem with it, there's a better chance of keeping "problem" dogs out of the hunting area and there's no wiggle room for anyone that wants to use his dog to assist in the hunt.

[Zippbuster]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I wonder if, by definition of the law, the dog would be aiding in the hunt if he saw an animal first and "told" you that it was there?

She can't talk....so couldn't admit to anything in a court of law....knowing her she wouldn't even if she could....

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

especially when he got the initial ants out of his pants and he realized he'd better pace himself. lol

lol.....yeah, they grow up but they always have a little pup left in em. Sure makes their eyes light up

tm

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Having had dogs all my life I personally fail to see how a dog could be used to hunt say an elk, moose, deer, sheep etc.. I just don't see it.

Duk, I've hunted deer with dogs in Ontario. They can flush deer and moose out of the bush pretty good. Sometimes the deer run towards or broadside to the hunter and other times they go the other way. Even bird hunting with my dog here in Alberta I've had to wave my arms a few times to make sure that I didn't get run over by a deer or a moose.

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Why.....is it not an ethical responsibility of the hunter to make every attempt to recover game?? Jack Russel's are used for game recovery all over the world. Not sure they would be much of a threat to moose or deer.

tm

It's a whole nother issue here with it's opponents TM......I'm just attempting to take baby steps first....

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Zippbuster

She can't talk....so couldn't admit to anything in a court of law....knowing her she wouldn't even if she could....

I neither confirm nor deny that I assisted in the hunt.....woof.