Loose lug nuts

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Last Nov I put the winter tires on the car and torqued the lug nuts. After about 100km (probably closer to 125) I checked the torque. There were a few lug nuts that need a bit more torque, but nothing unusual.

A month or so later, we are heading out and make it about 20 km when there is a bad vibration. I pull over to check and one tire is so loose that it is ready to come off. I get the tire iron, tighten up the lug nuts on that tire and then check all the other ones. They were fine. When we get home, I re-torqued all the lug nuts. The other three tires were fine. After 100km I recheck and every thing is fine.

Yesterday I noticed that the car was missing a lug nut. Dig up a spare from the box in the shop and grab a wrench. Check the other lug nuts. Every one of them is loose. Not to the point of coming off, but well below spec. At this point those lug nuts have all been torqued four times and now they are all loose???

I'm at a loss. We have had the car for several years. Same winter rims and tires. Never had a problem.

ARG

[elkhunter11]

When I bought steel rims for my Tacoma, they were loose after 25km, then again at 100km, and again at 200km. Finally at 300km, they were still at the correct spec. Every winter, they moved a bit at 100km, and sometimes at 200, while my aluminum rims never lost any torque. I torque wheels when I install them, then go for a short drive, retorque, and then torque at 100km. If they move at all at 100km, I check at 200km.
But if this just started after a shop installed wheels, they may have been stretched, and if so they will stretch until they start breaking.

[urban rednek]

This sounds like someone over torqued those wheel studs and stretched the threads. If this is the case, the studs need to be replaced.

[artie]

Did you put the lug nuts on without any lubricant. The book I read says put them on dry without lub.
Did you ever accidently tighten the lug nuts to tight and stretch the threads this could happen when using an impact gun
i did it on a yamaha quad to lazy to look up the torqe and set it at 100 ft lbs
it should have only been 45 foot pounds. Had a wheel fall off the quad as the nuts all came loose. I had stretched the threads and needed all new studs and lug nuts.
You might have to replace the studs and nuts not hard to do if you are handy.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

This sounds like someone over torqued those wheel studs and stretched the threads. If this is the case, the studs need to be replaced.

My first thought too. Someone ugga dugga'd those wheels on at some point.

[Big Sky]

My wife would say that the car is going into the shop because there's no way that she's risking losing a tire on the road because I fixed it when I actually don't know what I'm talking about.

I would say that it's time for new studs and lug nuts.

[bezzola]

On my truck suv and car i run them up with a 3/8 impact then finish with torque wrench with never an issue Between working on and driving semis the minute lug nuts start lossening up we would replace the studs and the problem went away

[Big Grey Wolf]

I may be wrong but few years back when all rims were steel do not recall all these problems with lug nuts.
PS where is Tire Bob when we need him?

[Au revoir, Gopher]

We bought the car in 2018 (it had 45,000km on it) it had the original tires on it and no winters. Since then the only times anyone but me has put tires on it was when we bought the winter rims and tires and when we bought a new set of summer tires. Both times from the same reputable shop that I'm certain didn't over torque the nuts. I'm equally certain I haven't over torqued them. I do use the 3/8 cordless impact driver but only for the convenience of it spinning the nuts a lot faster than I can, it can't get anywhere close to the correct torque much less over.

And no I don't lube studs.

Looks like I will be looking for new studs and lug nuts when I change over to the summers.

ARG

[bat119]

I bought new tires yesterday at Kal tire was told they do not do a retorque anymore ? I should've asked why never thought about until I saw this thread.

found the answer

https://www.kaltire.com/en/wheel-torque.html

[urban rednek]

Looking for a possible cause? Did it need a tire repair or brake inspection last summer?

Originally Posted by bat119

I bought new tires yesterday at Kal tire was told they do not do a retorque anymore ? I should've asked why never thought about until I saw this thread.

What? There is a reason I stopped dealing with Kal Tire years ago.

[W921]

I think the new wheels are centered on the hub instead of centered by the lugnuts.
All my stuff is the old lugnut centered stuff but I mount tires. Retorque by feel after a trip to town and then check a third or even a forth time if I gain on a few partial turns on the nuts the third time.
I would be surprised if stud threads stretched? You would think you would feel it if you thread a new nut on with fingers? I use WD 40 for lube or lithium grease. I clean my threads every time I have wheel off usually with wire wheel.
Hey could someone be loosening your wheel nuts? Hope not

[Ackleyman]

After getting tires put on in US if you ask when you should come by for re - torque they look at you like your from Mars.

[densa44]

The rest of us who are not experts like the people who are posting have never retorqued wheel nuts. Is this a common problem with cars or trucks nowadays? We could use a little insight from tire Bob right now.
I’m thinking of pulling the trailer to Whitehorse and don’t need this.

[3blade]

I had this happen once, old torque wrench was way out. 80 ft/lbs was more like 40-45. Double check yours before doing the studs.

[-JR-]

I would recheck your torque wrench or borrow one ,you could always add some lock-tite to the nuts if your worried about them coming loose again .
I have only had loose nuts on a ford 3500 once .
What type of car are you using ,are they factory rims ?
Does the centre of the rim sit nice and tight on the wheel hub ?

[densa44]

The rest of us who are not experts like the people who are posting have never retorqued wheel nuts. Is this a common problem with cars or trucks nowadays? We could use a little insight from tire Bob right now.
I’m thinking of pulling the trailer to Whitehorse and don’t need this.

[rjlester]

Yes the torque for these newer vehicles is higher than the good old days. My daily driver is 130ft/lbs!! Used to be everything pretty much was 90 to 100.

So I can see wheels coming loose if they are not quite torqued enough. Like someone else mentioned, check that your torque wrench is accurate.

I work on engines/cars a lot and don't typically use a torque wrench unless its a cylinder head or a plastic intake etc. Now I always use one on wheel bolts and nuts.

[tirebob]

Woah! Just saw this... Okay, a lot of variables can cause the issue.

First, studs that have been over torqued and stretched causing issues isn't lug nuts coming loose by backing off. it is usually presenting as lugs continuing to tighten and not reaching torque, and if/once torque is achieved they continue to stretch making it seem like the torque has changed. A lug nut won't normally just back off and fall off in a case like this, but the stud might break completely and fall off, or the nuts get bound up on the stud itself and when trying to loosen they bind up and break acting much like a cross threaded nut.

I should point out it isn't always being over-torqued, but over years of removal and installation studs can eventually weaken depending on the specific metal used for production. Older Toyota studs were famous for this. You see it less and less with the larger diameter studs vehicles are often using these days taking much higher torque loads, but it is still legit. Every time you tighten a lug nut, the threads and stud stretches.

Now as for studs seeming to actually loosen off even after retorquing it is hard to pinpoint on the internet of course, but I am going to be looking at things like the wheels not centring well and as such not seating well. Think a tight dirty/rusty hub/hub-centre not sitting all the way down even at torque, so as you drive it settles down even more, re-tighten and settles even more etc...

You may have a torque wrench that is not properly calibrated so your torque setting are not accurate and you are actually under torquing...

If you used a lubricant you may have used too much affecting torque settings being accurate...

We see people all the time who have a set of aftermarket wheels that require the use of hub-centric rings who when removing those wheels and re-installed stock wheels that are hub-centric, they forgot to remove the rings themselves from the car before installing the OEM wheels. This causes the ring to squish down as driving happens so the wheel keeps loosening...

The rims being used could simply be a wrong hub bore and not fitting properly, but assuming they have been used seasonally before with no issue and this is a new problem it is probably not that...

Using the wrong seat lug nut for the rims being used could also be an issue ie using a radius seat nut on an acorn seat wheel etc...

You get the idea... You need to go through it methodically and try and identify the issue that is happening.

[bat119]

Question for Bob

Do you do retorques on new tire installations ?

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by bat119

Question for Bob

Do you do retorques on new tire installations ?

Always... Not re-torquing is silliness.

[bat119]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Always... Not re-torquing is silliness.

Good to know I'll be checking mine

[Sundancefisher]

There has been a problem in cities with vandals loosening lugs.

Don’t think they are stealing tires but worse… could cause a bad accident messing with lugs.

https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/bc...er-loses-wheel

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/saskatche...nuts-1.5044848

https://globalnews.ca/video/7222092/...oosened-in-b-c

[WV911]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Woah! Just saw this... Okay, a lot of variables can cause the issue.

First, studs that have been over torqued and stretched causing issues isn't lug nuts coming loose by backing off. it is usually presenting as lugs continuing to tighten and not reaching torque, and if/once torque is achieved they continue to stretch making it seem like the torque has changed. A lug nut won't normally just back off and fall off in a case like this, but the stud might break completely and fall off, or the nuts get bound up on the stud itself and when trying to loosen they bind up and break acting much like a cross threaded nut.

I should point out it isn't always being over-torqued, but over years of removal and installation studs can eventually weaken depending on the specific metal used for production. Older Toyota studs were famous for this. You see it less and less with the larger diameter studs vehicles are often using these days taking much higher torque loads, but it is still legit. Every time you tighten a lug nut, the threads and stud stretches.

Now as for studs seeming to actually loosen off even after retorquing it is hard to pinpoint on the internet of course, but I am going to be looking at things like the wheels not centring well and as such not seating well. Think a tight dirty/rusty hub/hub-centre not sitting all the way down even at torque, so as you drive it settles down even more, re-tighten and settles even more etc...

You may have a torque wrench that is not properly calibrated so your torque setting are not accurate and you are actually under torquing...

If you used a lubricant you may have used too much affecting torque settings being accurate...

We see people all the time who have a set of aftermarket wheels that require the use of hub-centric rings who when removing those wheels and re-installed stock wheels that are hub-centric, they forgot to remove the rings themselves from the car before installing the OEM wheels. This causes the ring to squish down as driving happens so the wheel keeps loosening...

The rims being used could simply be a wrong hub bore and not fitting properly, but assuming they have been used seasonally before with no issue and this is a new problem it is probably not that...

Using the wrong seat lug nut for the rims being used could also be an issue ie using a radius seat nut on an acorn seat wheel etc...

You get the idea... You need to go through it methodically and try and identify the issue that is happening.

Nice to see a informed, qualified answer from someone who really knows what he is talking about.

[Cement Bench]

I TOLD HIM TO WRITE A BOOK


BUT


he does t listen to me


BESIDES WHICH

he is far to busy

just having a little fun but he is one of the brightest guys I know, in the field of rubbers

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

Looking for a possible cause? Did it need a tire repair or brake inspection last summer?

I hate it when things like this happen and I can't identify the cause. It means I can't prevent it from happening again.

No tire repair, not brake inspection. I'm the only monkey that has been wrenching on this vehicle except for the tire shop that I got the winters and new summers from. And that was 5 and 4 years ago.

Originally Posted by tirebob

Woah! Just saw this... Okay, a lot of variables can cause the issue.

First, studs that have been over torqued and stretched causing issues isn't lug nuts coming loose by backing off. it is usually presenting as lugs continuing to tighten and not reaching torque, and if/once torque is achieved they continue to stretch making it seem like the torque has changed. A lug nut won't normally just back off and fall off in a case like this, but the stud might break completely and fall off, or the nuts get bound up on the stud itself and when trying to loosen they bind up and break acting much like a cross threaded nut.

I should point out it isn't always being over-torqued, but over years of removal and installation studs can eventually weaken depending on the specific metal used for production. Older Toyota studs were famous for this. You see it less and less with the larger diameter studs vehicles are often using these days taking much higher torque loads, but it is still legit. Every time you tighten a lug nut, the threads and stud stretches.

Now as for studs seeming to actually loosen off even after retorquing it is hard to pinpoint on the internet of course, but I am going to be looking at things like the wheels not centring well and as such not seating well. Think a tight dirty/rusty hub/hub-centre not sitting all the way down even at torque, so as you drive it settles down even more, re-tighten and settles even more etc...

You may have a torque wrench that is not properly calibrated so your torque setting are not accurate and you are actually under torquing...

If you used a lubricant you may have used too much affecting torque settings being accurate...

We see people all the time who have a set of aftermarket wheels that require the use of hub-centric rings who when removing those wheels and re-installed stock wheels that are hub-centric, they forgot to remove the rings themselves from the car before installing the OEM wheels. This causes the ring to squish down as driving happens so the wheel keeps loosening...

The rims being used could simply be a wrong hub bore and not fitting properly, but assuming they have been used seasonally before with no issue and this is a new problem it is probably not that...

Using the wrong seat lug nut for the rims being used could also be an issue ie using a radius seat nut on an acorn seat wheel etc...

You get the idea... You need to go through it methodically and try and identify the issue that is happening.

Thanks for responding Bob.

I'm pretty sure the rims are correct. Like I said, they were bought from a reputable tire shop, and if they needed different lug nuts I would hope they would have told me so. And I have been using these rims for 5 years now and this is the first time I have had a problem.

I had discounted dirt/rust because I take a wire brush to the hubs and a wire or plastic brush to the rims (depending on steel or alloy). But I will be inspecting carefully when I swap to the summers. Also, I could see me goofing a wheel, but all four???

I hadn't considered the possibility that the torque wrench is out of wack. But I do have a fairly good feel for torque and didn't notice anything at the time. Will have to go looking for a shop that calibrates torque wrenches. Might as well get the little inch/pound one done too.

As for the suggestion that it could be vandalism, I sincerely hope not. But I must admit it did cross my mind after the first incident, it happened so suddenly.

ARG

[Au revoir, Gopher]

And to lighten things up a bit....

You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel

https://youtu.be/mJIn6gMlo6A

ARG

[JD848]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Always... Not re-torquing is silliness.

I re - torque and check every time. Had one tire shop only put on one lug nut on the passenger side .AS i pulled over the wheel fell off and an OPP car seen this as it was happening ,he drove me back in his car to the tire shop and there were my 5 missing nuts sitting there on the passenger side. Cost back then was 1000 bucks for damage on front end and fender .

Year was 1987 ,after that i double check all wheels before I leave and after 100klm I check to see if there all snug.3 times my lug nuts were loose on the stud .At another 200 I do fast pass around just for the heck of it,ten minutes of times is worth any ones life .

I really thought everyone new this specially out door guys .

RV'S also guys big time .

[-JR-]

It happens to all of use . I left Edmonton in a service truck and drove to a drilling rig in winter just south of the Berland river . On the way back just as i crossed the Berland bridge it felt like my rear left tire hit a pot hole . When i looked in the side mirror i seen both of my dully tires rolling down the road . one of them even passed me Lol . A picker truck seen it all as he was behind me , so he was nice enough to lift my back end up and i threw on the two tires and robbed 4 nuts from the other 3 tires . only had 4 studs ,the others were snapped off . Got into Fox creek and and the ford dealer had more nuts and studs but could not get me in . So there I was in there parking lot ,doing it my self . I learnt the hard way . Need to double check your nuts guys after you get new tires .