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  #211  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:03 AM
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What difference does it make? You seem to have lost touch with the reason for hunting for many people in the first place, and that’s to put food on the table. A guy trying to put food on the table would be pretty stupid to limit himself to using a crossbow in general season when he could use a rifle. Makes sense to me.
Nope haven’t lost touch. There is “stages of hunting” proven time and again.

http://www.huntfairchase.com/five-stages-of-the-hunter/

I use only my bow during general season, why? Because I like the challenge and the experience and the means...the end “goal” doesn’t have to occur as quickly as possible.

Just curious if those so passionate about the crossbow are using them when they can...vs being upset about when they can’t. If hunting is only about putting food on the table for you, you are missing out on a lot.

So if I hear you correctly the crossbow for you isn’t about the means...but the ends to the means? It’s just about achieving the goal as fast as possible? Do you bowhunt currently, can you pull 40lbs?

LC
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  #212  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:08 AM
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Pretty sweet for bow only hunters, eh? I hunt my moose in 506 and if I’m drawn I can hunt my bull during the rut in archery season AND, if unsuccessful, during the general season with a rifle if I want. How would this be good for anyone else but bow only hunters? Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.
Cake and it eat it too? You didn’t read or understand the proposal. Cake and eat it too would describe wanting to hunt the entire season with a draw and if you couldn’t get it done early with the bow transition to the rifle to get it done.
....but regardless that proposal is only valid for the calendar year of submission. Just like so many other proposals like pack dogs, tracking dogs, and yes crossbows. I think Salavee posted this as the last part shows who voted for it...and the projected ABA member numbers at the time. But you wouldn’t waste an opportunity to bash the ABA

But I digress...the OP asked his questions, received his answer and more...and is now an ABA Life Member.

LC
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  #213  
Old 04-15-2018, 09:58 AM
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Settle the "whats archery" argument with the historical facts of how and why a crossbow was created. A bolt resembles an arrow and it has limbs and a string. That's where all of the commonalities end. They function differently after that and significantly enough that crossbows are easier and are more efficient. I can guarantee harvests will increase and due to increased participation and increased success. That means all the benefit of the season will be gone. Because people can read I am repeating that.

BC and SO are examples of how that works and so are many states.

For those that want to stamp there feet and say they want it their way, why are you different than the ABA? If you get your way you will ruin the entire season. The entire benefit will disappear. And that's not selfish?
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  #214  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Settle the "whats archery" argument with the historical facts of how and why a crossbow was created. A bolt resembles an arrow and it has limbs and a string. That's where all of the commonalities end. They function differently after that and significantly enough that crossbows are easier and are more efficient. I can guarantee harvests will increase and due to increased participation and increased success. That means all the benefit of the season will be gone. Because people can read I am repeating that.

BC and SO are examples of how that works and so are many states.

For those that want to stamp there feet and say they want it their way, why are you different than the ABA? If you get your way you will ruin the entire season. The entire benefit will disappear. And that's not selfish?
Meh, and so can be said when comparing traditional bow to the fandangled compound bow...
Think we got too many toxophilite's around here
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  #215  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:13 AM
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Meh, and so can be said when comparing traditional bow to the fandangled compound bow...
Think we got too many toxophilite's around here
And you again missing the point. It's about losing it all because of increased harvest. Compound and traditional is sustainable in the current model.

Your meh comment and poor use of a big word only supports the willful ignorance to push your agenda over facts.

I don't want crossbows because I don't want reduced seasons and opportunities. You can say the same thing.
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  #216  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:33 AM
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And you again missing the point. It's about losing it all because of increased harvest. Compound and traditional is sustainable in the current model.

Your meh comment and poor use of a big word only supports the willful ignorance to push your agenda over facts.

I don't want crossbows because I don't want reduced seasons and opportunities. You can say the same thing.
Ahhh you might see an increase In Sales of crossbows and harvest rates go up the first year, then like everything else the novelty will wear off because you got to actually get out of the vehicle, haul your carcass into the woods while carrying this contraption of so called guaranteed succes hit anything out to 100 yard wonder bow. I know people who hunt with crossbows and depending on the type of hunt, situations, set up they prefere thier compound and then again they will occasionally pick up thier traditional gear too...
Person who is fond of or an expert at archery is sometimes called a toxophilite.
So meh, as in whatever, ignorance runs amuck, enjoy your factual agenda.
Mark my words you will see traditional, compound and cross bows all in one archery zone/season.
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  #217  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:35 AM
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So why bother if the “novelty” wears off? Change for the sake of change without purpose or projection of consequence...

You sound extremely passionate about crossbows. What crossbow do you currently hunt with during the general or primitive weapons seasons? How many days a year do you spend using it?

Factual agenda? Really? LMAO.... how about your emotional agenda, sore feelers? Words marked...waiting....

As mentioned before....sorry to the OP for the severe derailment of his post, happy to have a new member to the ABA.

LC
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  #218  
Old 04-15-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
So why bother if the “novelty” wears off? Change for the sake of change without purpose or projection of consequence...

You sound extremely passionate about crossbows. What crossbow do you currently hunt with during the general or primitive weapons seasons? How many days a year do you spend using it?

LC
Not there yet lefty, love my old Jennings bow, dragging it around since 1992.
But would like to invest in a crossbow which will happen if the Jennings blows up...I hunt and am loyal to the tools I use never could justify having a room full of gear that may or may not get used. I do have buddies that use cross bows every year and swear by them but also curse at them in tight spot stalk situations. I go two months with the bow and then get into the rifle or carry both which gets goofy at times.
Glad too the OP found a club to belong to, something that will benefit his quest.
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  #219  
Old 04-15-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Settle the "whats archery" argument with the historical facts of how and why a crossbow was created. A bolt resembles an arrow and it has limbs and a string. That's where all of the commonalities end. They function differently after that and significantly enough that crossbows are easier and are more efficient. I can guarantee harvests will increase and due to increased participation and increased success. That means all the benefit of the season will be gone. Because people can read I am repeating that.

BC and SO are examples of how that works and so are many states.

For those that want to stamp there feet and say they want it their way, why are you different than the ABA? If you get your way you will ruin the entire season. The entire benefit will disappear. And that's not selfish?
1. A crossbow is not more efficient. In fact it is less efficient. A crossbow requires considerable more draw weight (3 or more times) than a compound bow to achieve comparable energy.

2. You can't guarantee anything.

3. You have it backwards. The ABA wants it their way. Crossbow enthusiasts want inclusion but are thwarted by "elite" archers determined to undermine that proposition. Undermining by means of misinformation (as you provided above), selfishness and greed.
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  #220  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:05 PM
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1. A crossbow is not more efficient. In fact it is less efficient. A crossbow requires considerable more draw weight (3 or more times) than a compound bow to achieve comparable energy.

2. You can't guarantee anything.

3. You have it backwards. The ABA wants it their way. Crossbow enthusiasts want inclusion but are thwarted by "elite" archers determined to undermine that proposition. Undermining by means of misinformation (as you provided above), selfishness and greed.
It’s not “less efficient” it has a shorter power stroke, due to geometry. Compound bows don’t get over 400fps, only one I know can.

LC
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  #221  
Old 04-15-2018, 04:30 PM
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It’s not “less efficient” it has a shorter power stroke, due to geometry. Compound bows don’t get over 400fps, only one I know can.

LC
LC. That is not correct. Suggest you look up the definition of efficient..........equals maximum productivity with the least effort. The design of a crossbow is not as efficient as a compound bow if it takes 3 or more times the effort to get the same amount of energy out of a crossbow as a compound bow. I own two modern crossbows, neither shoots 400 fps. Excalibur Micro 335 has a draw weight of 270# and propels 350 gr arrows at 335 fps. Excalibur Matrix 330 has a draw weight of 220# and propels 350 gr arrows at 330 fps.

If there is one compound bow shooting more than 400 fps then I guess there are compound bows that shoot 400 fps.................then there are those guys with the extra long arms that get more speed out of a 70# bow than the average man.

These aren't alternate facts.....................just random facts
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  #222  
Old 04-15-2018, 05:42 PM
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1. A crossbow is not more efficient. In fact it is less efficient. A crossbow requires considerable more draw weight (3 or more times) than a compound bow to achieve comparable energy.

2. You can't guarantee anything.

3. You have it backwards. The ABA wants it their way. Crossbow enthusiasts want inclusion but are thwarted by "elite" archers determined to undermine that proposition. Undermining by means of misinformation (as you provided above), selfishness and greed.
It's has nothing about elitism. It's about definition and results.

A crossbow IS more efficient hunting. I've hunted in seasons with crossbow hunters in archery seasons and it is easier. I own crossbows and I can pick one up months after the last time and do the same thing I did months ago. I can shoot a crossbow from positions that it's physically impossible to shoot a bow from. You can skip the prep and the draw, etc, etc.

Why do crossbow enthusiasts desire to be included? They can do what they like as the law now allows.

We have to have the restriction to limit the percentage of the harvest. That's what this discussion is actually about. Why do the crossbow people have to act like this is a white privilege/#metoo victim scenario.

The idea that the spike in harvest and persistence of crossbow hunters being temporary then arguing that they're enthusiasts is ridiculous.

I can tell you my harvest rate with a crossbow vs a compound or traditional setup would be much higher. I'm not exceptional but I am persistent and that's why I have been successful with a bow. Why wouldn't this be the same for crossbow enthusiasts that refuse to commit to archery to enjoy the benefit of the current season.

In a true debate the arguments made for crossbows being included in the current system and being sustainable will fail under the weight of the facts on how it has worked where crossbows are included. These aren't predictions, it's how it's works.

It's not a hate for crossbows; it's a desire to keep the privilege as it is and not ruin it for the sake of a few "enthusiasts" that apparently won't persevere anyway (not my prediction). If I had to go purely traditional in my archery equipment to see an increase in that privilege and opportunity I'd set my compound aside as well.
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  #223  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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Excalibur Matrix Mega and Barnett Ghost both surpass 400fps, HCA Speed pro arrows (3gr/pound) out of a X10 can achieve over 400 if the string has no peep and the arrow has no fletches and has a 55gr point

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  #224  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:21 PM
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It's has nothing about elitism. It's about definition and results.

A crossbow IS more efficient hunting. I've hunted in seasons with crossbow hunters in archery seasons and it is easier. I own crossbows and I can pick one up months after the last time and do the same thing I did months ago. I can shoot a crossbow from positions that it's physically impossible to shoot a bow from. You can skip the prep and the draw, etc, etc.

Why do crossbow enthusiasts desire to be included? They can do what they like as the law now allows.

We have to have the restriction to limit the percentage of the harvest. That's what this discussion is actually about. Why do the crossbow people have to act like this is a white privilege/#metoo victim scenario.

The idea that the spike in harvest and persistence of crossbow hunters being temporary then arguing that they're enthusiasts is ridiculous.

I can tell you my harvest rate with a crossbow vs a compound or traditional setup would be much higher. I'm not exceptional but I am persistent and that's why I have been successful with a bow. Why wouldn't this be the same for crossbow enthusiasts that refuse to commit to archery to enjoy the benefit of the current season.

In a true debate the arguments made for crossbows being included in the current system and being sustainable will fail under the weight of the facts on how it has worked where crossbows are included. These aren't predictions, it's how it's works.

It's not a hate for crossbows; it's a desire to keep the privilege as it is and not ruin it for the sake of a few "enthusiasts" that apparently won't persevere anyway (not my prediction). If I had to go purely traditional in my archery equipment to see an increase in that privilege and opportunity I'd set my compound aside as well.
You are all over the map.
All pieces of archery equipment be it a traditional bow, compound bow or cross bow have thier strengths and weaknesses based on the type of hunting they are applied to.
Why can't the privilidge be shared? Traditional bow hunters that are dedicated to this type of archery share with compound bow hunters....harvest rates increased with the easier of the two being introduced and all got along...or didn't but either things moved forward...as they will again.
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  #225  
Old 04-15-2018, 07:24 PM
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Muddy the waters, deflect etc., good for delays, hang on as long as you can.

End of the day, if you set afield in pursuit of game with a crossbow, compound or traditional then you are indeed bowhunting.

It really is that simple. And that's why when a majority of people are presented all the facts, all the sides, then you get what should be.

The right thing to do is fix it now that we know, then adjust as necessary as we go. Again, that simple, pretty much just the stroke of a pen on a definition faux pas and we can all move onto something else lol.
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Old 04-15-2018, 07:38 PM
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And the accusations of selfish agendas by those in favor of allowing it in with the other bows are hilarious.

The agenda is simple, logic alone tells us where the tool belongs, that's it. The other agenda in all this is straight up selfishness.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:55 AM
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A few of you are putting a lot of energy into fighting each other. Why dont we fight for more archery only zones to accommodate the increased popularity of the sport AND we can include crossbows...Or are the crossbow hunters going to get in a fight with the rifle hunters now? There has gotta be a balance somewhere.
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  #228  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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A few of you are putting a lot of energy into fighting each other. Why dont we fight for more archery only zones to accommodate the increased popularity of the sport AND we can include crossbows...Or are the crossbow hunters going to get in a fight with the rifle hunters now? There has gotta be a balance somewhere.
Why do we need more Archery only Zones ? "Archery" season is open from late Aug to the total end of the Hunting season in every WMU in the Province. Lots of time and plenty of room. It appears however, that most of the Archery only types trade their Bows for Rifles as soon as rifle Season opens. Why would that be ? Take advantage of what is available and don't go looking for more exclusive territory. Rifle hunters don't mind sharing.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:30 AM
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Why do we need more Archery only Zones ? "Archery" season is open from late Aug to the total end of the Hunting season in every WMU in the Province. Lots of time and plenty of room. It appears however, that most of the Archery only types trade their Bows for Rifles as soon as rifle Season opens. Why would that be ? Take advantage of what is available and don't go looking for more exclusive territory. Rifle hunters don't mind sharing.
Id like to hunt more WMU`s with my bow for deer in November without having gunshots scattering the animals in every direction and making them nocturnal. Im just stating what I would like... Would a crossbow hunter like the same? Maybe its because of the reason above that archery hunters pick up their rifle.... if you cant beat them, join them?

Maybe crossbow hunters should do as you say and `take advantage of what is available` and hunt with a weapon that is classed as archery equipment in the archery season. You have all of November to hunt with your crossbow. I wont go `looking for more exclusive territory` if you stop looking to be included in the archery season with your non-archery equipment. After all, rifle hunters don`t mind sharing.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:33 AM
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A few of you are putting a lot of energy into fighting each other. Why dont we fight rifle hunters for more archery only zones to accommodate the increased popularity of the sport AND we can include crossbows...Or are the crossbow hunters going to get in a fight with the rifle hunters now? There has gotta be a balance somewhere.
Fixed it for you. No, I won't join forces with anyone to screw someone else over, but thanks anyway.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:43 AM
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Id like to hunt more WMU`s with my bow for deer in November without having gunshots scattering the animals in every direction and making them nocturnal. Im just stating what I would like... Would a crossbow hunter like the same? Maybe its because of the reason above that archery hunters pick up their rifle.... if you cant beat them, join them?

Maybe crossbow hunters should do as you say and `take advantage of what is available` and hunt with a weapon that is classed as archery equipment in the archery season. You have all of November to hunt with your crossbow. I wont go `looking for more exclusive territory` if you stop looking to be included in the archery season with your non-archery equipment. After all, rifle hunters don`t mind sharing.
lol .. OMG .. gunshots scattering the animals. Certainly different than bowhunting in a private Sanctuary isn't it? Try and adapt to conditions the same as a X_Bow hunter does. I'm sure your success rates won't suffer.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:51 AM
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Fixed it for you. No, I won't join forces with anyone to screw someone else over, but thanks anyway.
How Switzerland of you. Im not saying `Fight rifle hunters`, im saying lets find a solution for everyone. A solution where we can balance - number of hunters, number of tags, game populations, types of hunting, ect. Just allowing crossbows into the archery season doesn't fix or balance anything.... unless im missing something.

Im very open to your suggestions though! Without the argument of `a crossbow is archery equipment`. Because its not.. at least right now. Lets start there.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:09 PM
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How Switzerland of you. Im not saying `Fight rifle hunters`, im saying lets find a solution for everyone. A solution where we can balance - number of hunters, number of tags, game populations, types of hunting, ect. Just allowing crossbows into the archery season doesn't fix or balance anything.... unless im missing something.

Im very open to your suggestions though! Without the argument of `a crossbow is archery equipment`. Because its not.. at least right now. Lets start there.
The solution for everyone is to lump the tools available into the two distinct seasons we have for them.

Currently we can't due to the definition faux pas, but an easy fix.

You got your nice and quiet, 50-ish yard stick/string/arrow options approx. 15% harvest rates and you got your loud 300+ yard boomsticks with approx. 85% harvest rates. (for argument sake that's close enough stats)

It doesn't really get much simpler than this. To leave a tool out or put one in the other season doesn't help anyone. Waste of time really.

Your archery definition argument is hilarious.

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  #234  
Old 04-16-2018, 12:20 PM
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How Switzerland of you. Im not saying `Fight rifle hunters`, im saying lets find a solution for everyone. A solution where we can balance - number of hunters, number of tags, game populations, types of hunting, ect. Just allowing crossbows into the archery season doesn't fix or balance anything.... unless im missing something.

Im very open to your suggestions though! Without the argument of `a crossbow is archery equipment`. Because its not.. at least right now. Lets start there.
At least you seem to be"open" to finding a solution. Sad part is the solution
is mentioned in your last paragraph. That is the mindset that requires some adjustment. From that point, were are on the road to finding the elusive balance you refer to. If you want some balance, perhaps try increasing the required minimum compound poundage to 70 lbs, not reducing it to 35. That's shooting yourselves in the foot, so to speak, as far as increasing participation goes. On the bright side though, 35lbs will also increase the number of draws available for many families. Somehow "balance" doesn't seem to be part of the equation.
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:41 PM
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Statistics from this year’s edition of the provincial hunting guide show Albertans have been applying for resident hunting licences and draw applications in record numbers. In 2017, the province handled 435,630 applications — an increase of 62,000 from two years earlier.
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Old 04-16-2018, 03:35 PM
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Statistics from this year’s edition of the provincial hunting guide show Albertans have been applying for resident hunting licences and draw applications in record numbers. In 2017, the province handled 435,630 applications — an increase of 62,000 from two years earlier.
Cant afford to eat out as often too expensive since the oil crashed now its back to the basics baby!
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  #237  
Old 04-16-2018, 05:54 PM
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I found an old tidbit...that I agree with. Back in the day there was a vote held amongst all Alberta hunters... I actually missed voting on this personally.

But regardless the results spoke...that the result were to not have crossbow inclusion.

This reminds me of Quebec wanting to separate...every so often they get bent out of shape and want to vote on it...to the same resolve.

There is a thing called acceptance like mentioned below.

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It's not the ABA "keeping X-Bows out of our archery seasons". Alberta hunters voted. My opinion........and I'm not a member, is that the ABA is doing the right thing. It's not an "us against them" thing, because there is no them.......it's all us. Acceptance...take the pill.
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
I found an old tidbit...that I agree with. Back in the day there was a vote held amongst all Alberta hunters... I actually missed voting on this personally.

But regardless the results spoke...that the result were to not have crossbow inclusion.

This reminds me of Quebec wanting to separate...every so often they get bent out of shape and want to vote on it...to the same resolve.

There is a thing called acceptance like mentioned below.



LC
I agree with the old tidbit part but I'll go all-in about the Alberta Hunters vote against X-Bows. Exactly when and who with some solid data that such a thing ever took place is sorely needed on this one.

Reminds me of BC not allowing a pipeline to be installed within their special domain.
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  #239  
Old 04-16-2018, 06:25 PM
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Lefty-Canuck Lefty-Canuck is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
I agree with the old tidbit part but I'll go all-in about the Alberta Hunters vote against X-Bows. Exactly when and who with some solid data that such a thing ever took place is sorely needed on this one.

Reminds me of BC not allowing a pipeline to be installed within their special domain.
Were you around when every single hunter endorsed WIN card holder with a valid email address received a survey about crossbow inclusion?...that was the vote.

Go “all in” all you want...if you are claiming that didn’t happen, you would be broke.

LC
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
I found an old tidbit...that I agree with. Back in the day there was a vote held amongst all Alberta hunters... I actually missed voting on this personally.

But regardless the results spoke...that the result were to not have crossbow inclusion.

This reminds me of Quebec wanting to separate...every so often they get bent out of shape and want to vote on it...to the same resolve.

There is a thing called acceptance like mentioned below.



LC
I'm flattered by your stalking my prior posts. How many years ago was that?

However, as I explained on post #38 on page two of this thread, I've changed my view on this position. As I explained in post #38, self pride, selfishness and fear were my motivations. I've come clean with that.

So even though that I explained my reversal, admitted that I was a ferocious opponent of crossbows and now reversed that position, you believe that you have found some smoking gun? I ha ha in your general direction
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