Classified Waters - Some insight from a BC Fisherman

[Parker Hale]

So I have been following the conversation in the Elk River thread and thought I would talk about what has happened here in BC since the change to classified waters.
Starting with my history here, I was born and raised in Cranbrook. Fished the waters here through the 70's to present day. I watched the decline in fish numbers in pretty much every stream and river in the area prior to the changes to the regs. FYI: for this thread I am only speaking about rivers and streams, no lakes.
The first big change was going to single barbless hooks and a lot being designated flyfishing only. Then the classified waters were brought in. As a BC resident this has had virtually no effect on my fishing other than an extra 20 bucks a year. I understand it is different for you out of province guys, 20 bucks a day isn't cheap, especially when your doing a week long trip, now having said that I did live in Calgary for 20 years and made many trips out here to fish. To me the $20 a day was worth it, on several occasions I came for 5 -7 day trips and payed the money, again worth every cent. The change to limiting the number of out of province days, was the most recent change. Is it fair? No, but I see the results and can't argue with them.
Some time ago, I was still in Calgary at the time a good friend and I were fishing a river we have both really loved getting to but after a day of catching nothing but fish with scars and chunks missing from their lips we made the decision to stop fishing that river altogether. Last year I returned to that river and was happy to see the fish looking much better, and definitely less traffic on the river. The same story can be told for pretty much all the classified waters.
In summary, have these regs worked? I believe so, I may not agree with all the regs but we have to have some kind of set of regulations in place.
Now the question becomes will a classified system work for Alberta? It's hard to say, but if the same system was used it would not effect local Alberta fishermen, beyond that extra license cost and like I said 20 bucks a year is worth every cent for the results I have seen here.
A draw system would be a completely different animal that I don't agree with, and I hope it never comes to that here.
I hope this helps some of you good Albertans understand the classified water system here in BC and maybe gives some insight into possibilities for the heavily pressured waters there.

Tight lines all, get out and do it while you can because who knows what the future will bring.

[Parker Hale]

One more thing I would like to add. If somebody from the AB government asked me for some input I would say go single barbless. Neither my success or enjoyment has been negatively affected by this. I would go so far as to say it has increased my enjoyment, it adds a little more challenge and makes it easier to release a fish with minimal handling, less stress on fish and fisherman.

[ÜberFly]

So I'll give the perspective as a AB fishing guide and the fact that BC guides that don't have any rod days on the BC streams are bringing clients into AB to fish the Southern small streams (which are adding to the increased pressure and the fish are getting beaten up as you describe), and not really contributing to the AB economy and probably are going to any of the Crowsnest flyshops to support them... AB guides cannot bring AB clients into BC...

[Parker Hale]

...and BC guides should not be allowed to guide in AB. I'm with you there Uber, the playing field needs to be even.

[bessiedog]

No
Classified

Waters.

Tis a silly idea.

Hard enough to get kids into fly fishing (aka the sport of the rich). It’ll be just another barrier.

And yes….. our rivers do suffer from BC guides plaguing our better more scenic stretches.

You can’t go
Through the Gap w/out seeing a set of BC plates (and 3-5 guys bailing out)

Having guided for a few years ( and then realizing my leisure should not be my job…)…. Man!….. I’d run into troops of BC guided clients….. so they always move in packs….. do they always not skip 2 holes ahead… but rather wait at the hole your already fishin like sun
Kinda neoprene sunglassed vultures….. or park ONE hole ahead and fry to
Keep buMping ahead of you when you try to pass…?


I’ve been fishing these waters down here since ‘92….. the fishery has improved greatly in the 4 main drainages i haunt.
Yes….. catch and release is going to generate scarred fish. Your annecdote that limiting rod days mitigates that …….. not buying it.

Let’s try and NOT ‘Eurozone’ our waters…….

This issue is very similar to paid landowner hunting access.

[Parker Hale]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

No
Classified

Waters.

Tis a silly idea.

Hard enough to get kids into fly fishing (aka the sport of the rich). It’ll be just another barrier.

And yes….. our rivers do suffer from BC guides plaguing our better more scenic stretches.

You can’t go
Through the Gap w/out seeing a set of BC plates (and 3-5 guys bailing out)

Having guided for a few years ( and then realizing my leisure should not be my job…)…. Man!….. I’d run into troops of BC guided clients….. so they always move in packs….. do they always not skip 2 holes ahead… but rather wait at the hole your already fishin like sun
Kinda neoprene sunglassed vultures….. or park ONE hole ahead and fry to
Keep buMping ahead of you when you try to pass…?


I’ve been fishing these waters down here since ‘92….. the fishery has improved greatly in the 4 main drainages i haunt.
Yes….. catch and release is going to generate scarred fish. Your annecdote that limiting rod days mitigates that …….. not buying it.

Let’s try and NOT ‘Eurozone’ our waters…….

This issue is very similar to paid landowner hunting access.

I never said limiting rod days mitigates scarring of fish, I stated what I have seen with my eyes and stated my opinions. Less rod days = less fisherman = a fish being caught fewer times.
I'm not telling Alberta or anyone else what they should do with their resources or regulations. Since the subject of pressured or over pressured rivers comes up which brings on the various regulation possibilities I just offered my personal experiences.
As for BC plates in AB, the same can be said for BC, take a drive through any campground on a long weekend. To me this has not about my province your province. As I have said I lived in AB for a long time and fished BC as an Albertan and run into many guys from AB while out fishing. I don't have an issue with people that want to come and enjoy the beauty of the area and have made some friends through these meetings. But I have seen the results of what these regulations have done and in my opinion they are good results.
Will it ever be like it was 50 years ago? I highly doubt it, until then I will enjoy good fishing, produced from good management.
And Bessie, if you ever find yourself out this way I'd be happy to take you out for a day.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Parker Hale

I never said limiting rod days mitigates scarring of fish, I stated what I have seen with my eyes and stated my opinions. Less rod days = less fisherman = a fish being caught fewer times.
I'm not telling Alberta or anyone else what they should do with their resources or regulations. Since the subject of pressured or over pressured rivers comes up which brings on the various regulation possibilities I just offered my personal experiences.
As for BC plates in AB, the same can be said for BC, take a drive through any campground on a long weekend. To me this has not about my province your province. As I have said I lived in AB for a long time and fished BC as an Albertan and run into many guys from AB while out fishing. I don't have an issue with people that want to come and enjoy the beauty of the area and have made some friends through these meetings. But I have seen the results of what these regulations have done and in my opinion they are good results.
Will it ever be like it was 50 years ago? I highly doubt it, until then I will enjoy good fishing, produced from good management.
And Bessie, if you ever find yourself out this way I'd be happy to take you out for a day.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain the things you’ve witnessed under BC’s regulations. Especially after having spent obviously lots of time in both provinces.

[pikergolf]

Limited resources and seemingly unlimited anglers, not a good mix. Alberta is quit cursed on both accounts. Single barbless hooks would help a lot, lake and flowing waters.

[bessiedog]

Yes
I can get behind single barbless. I don’t see a problem there.

Public waters have to have public a access.

[spurly]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Yes
I can get behind single barbless. I don’t see a problem there.

Public waters have to have public a access.

I agree with single barbless hooks
But non residents should have to pay to play.
Plus designated rod days for non res. Guides.
If BC guides want to come here, and compete against our guides, and use our resources it should cost them some extra cash. To do so.

[Don Andersen]

Squabbling over the remains!
Notice how many large cuts are shown. Everyone realize the little ones are gone.
And no its not poaching or quads.
The Oldman today mirrors the Madison when the fishery collapsed.


Don

[South west trappin RG]

Originally Posted by spurly

I agree with single barbless hooks
But non residents should have to pay to play.
Plus designated rod days for non res. Guides.
If BC guides want to come here, and compete against our guides, and use our resources it should cost them some extra cash. To do so.

This exzactly. I fish allot of the rivers mentioned an even off the beaten track as Bessie said is getting pressure that I don’t think can be sustained. It’s never going to be like when I was a kid but I believe it can improve. I have witnessed the elk an 4-5 years after implementing classified waters it’s fishing like it was in the eairly 90s when my dad an me would take trips there. Leaving today to go float the elk for three different days one on the bull river an st Marrys. always a highlight of my summer.

[bessiedog]

Gonna disagree Don

Lower Crow has seen a huge increase in lil guys.

Caught several lil guyes in

Upper OMR
Castle and Tribs
Even lower OMR downstream from Waldron

This has been over the last two years

I used to think the same as you ‘whirling disease’… but not from what I’m seeing.

[PFKGSP]

The part I hate most about the CW system in BC is having to stay up until 1 am on March 1 to get my days. Other than that I wish I could get a resident license and only pay $20 a year to fish whichever CW I want whenever I want.
Seems to me like a small price to pay for a resident who is serious about fishing and the resource.
PH, do you know much about how the systems works as a whole? The way I see it they sell so many days in a 2 week block so in theory everyone could buy all the "days" on the same day in that period. Not sure that that enhances the fishing experience.
The other problem I see with it and I can't prove this happens, but I suspect it does. Those with large bank accounts wouldn't care about spending $600 to buy a month of days knowing they will only go fishing 5 or 6 days. Cheaper than paying a guide. I know I have thought about it more than once. Not sure that is really fair.

[StephenC]

First off....the differences between AB and BC licensing systems mean that there is asymmetry between how AB residents are treated by BC and how BC residents are treated in AB.....this seems unfair given that we all live in the same country....but that is a political football that I don't want to debate.

More importantly to me, I like to fish with a buddy both for camaraderie and safety reasons. We like to fish in SW AB and the east Kootenays but I have found the BC web portal makes it virtually impossible for both of us to purchase a licence for a specific date on Class 2 rivers where there are limited numbers of rod days for non-residents.

A few observations:
- the system opens at midnight Pacific time March 1 - this means that non residents have to stay up until 1am to buy licences.....really.....there is no magic to doing this in the middle of the night....why not do this at a time that is a little more friendly to getting a good nights sleep
- the rod day licences on all rivers sell out in minutes for the whole season....if you don't get a licence within minutes of the system, opening ....forget it
- the system is VERY clunky and any transaction takes many minutes which means there is no practical way to buy more than one or two rod days before they are all gone
- the system only allows me to buy a licence for me (not me and my buddy) ....if I want a rod day on more than one river, I have to do multiple transactions...which doesn't work as the rod days are all gone in minutes...see my previous comment
- given that I can only buy a rod day for myself, if I want to fish with a buddy on a specific day, each of us has to separately try to book that specific date on that specific river within moments when the system opens at 1 am. Experience has shown that this is not practically possible.

Has anyone come up with a practical way for non-residents to purchase a few rod days for two anglers on the same river and the same date.

Surely BC could come up with a more user friendly web portal to address these frustrations. It is almost as if BC want to drive non-residents to only fish with BC guides......hmmmm.

Cheers
Steve

[WinefredCommander]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Gonna disagree Don

Lower Crow has seen a huge increase in lil guys.

Caught several lil guyes in

Upper OMR
Castle and Tribs
Even lower OMR downstream from Waldron

This has been over the last two years

I used to think the same as you ‘whirling disease’… but not from what I’m seeing.

Crow doesn’t count Bessie, it’s a stocked water body. 30000 rainbows in the lake. How many of those actually stay in the lake?

[bessiedog]

Good point…..
Cept the lowerCrow Dinks were amid and the majority were cutbows…?

Todd creek seems to flush a batch of cutties to the Crow ever so often it seems.

[smitty9]

Originally Posted by Parker Hale

So I have been following the conversation in the Elk River thread and thought I would talk about what has happened here in BC since the change to classified waters.
Starting with my history here, I was born and raised in Cranbrook. Fished the waters here through the 70's to present day. I watched the decline in fish numbers in pretty much every stream and river in the area prior to the changes to the regs. FYI: for this thread I am only speaking about rivers and streams, no lakes.
The first big change was going to single barbless hooks and a lot being designated flyfishing only. Then the classified waters were brought in. As a BC resident this has had virtually no effect on my fishing other than an extra 20 bucks a year. I understand it is different for you out of province guys, 20 bucks a day isn't cheap, especially when your doing a week long trip, now having said that I did live in Calgary for 20 years and made many trips out here to fish. To me the $20 a day was worth it, on several occasions I came for 5 -7 day trips and payed the money, again worth every cent. The change to limiting the number of out of province days, was the most recent change. Is it fair? No, but I see the results and can't argue with them.
Some time ago, I was still in Calgary at the time a good friend and I were fishing a river we have both really loved getting to but after a day of catching nothing but fish with scars and chunks missing from their lips we made the decision to stop fishing that river altogether. Last year I returned to that river and was happy to see the fish looking much better, and definitely less traffic on the river. The same story can be told for pretty much all the classified waters.
In summary, have these regs worked? I believe so, I may not agree with all the regs but we have to have some kind of set of regulations in place.
Now the question becomes will a classified system work for Alberta? It's hard to say, but if the same system was used it would not effect local Alberta fishermen, beyond that extra license cost and like I said 20 bucks a year is worth every cent for the results I have seen here.
A draw system would be a completely different animal that I don't agree with, and I hope it never comes to that here.
I hope this helps some of you good Albertans understand the classified water system here in BC and maybe gives some insight into possibilities for the heavily pressured waters there.

Tight lines all, get out and do it while you can because who knows what the future will bring.

THANK-YOU Parker Hale!

Usually, the Classified Waters rant is a beloved annual thing for me. I appreciate you taking on this burden. Lol

The system could easily work in Alberta. While it could be “inspired” by BC, it doesn’t have to be a “carbon copy” of BC’s.

Nor should it.

Here’s what it would look like in Alberta, pretty close to BC but different in guiding policies:
1. Annual fee for Albertans only. Something in the order of $35 to $40 once a year. This would defeat BessieDog’s absurd argument about elitism and sport for the rich.
2. Absolutely no guiding from outside the province.
3. Albertan anglers come first; this would be the major difference between BC and AB. In BC, it would seem the guides have the power in terms of rod days and allocations. In AB, the everyday “Joe and Jane” angler would come first in allocations.
4. No guiding on small waters like Livingstone.
5. Double fees for non-resident Canadians (BC’ers and Sask anglers), add a per day cost. Triple fees for non-resident, “alien” (US anglers) with a per day cost.

The main difference is that Classified Waters in Alberta would focus on serving the needs of the fish by managing anglers, and Alberta anglers would take priority, not guiding. This recognizes that SW Alberta has FAR LESS water to spread anglers out, as compared to the East Kootenays in BC. In BC, they must have like 10x the water we do with bulls and cutts. We basically have 3 main stems in the South Sask drainage; The Castle system, the Crowsnest river, and of course the Oldman (yes, I have ignored the Bow for now).

Classified Waters is long overdue in Alberta.

And I don’t spend much time anymore talking about it, I am working with bios, dialoguing, planting the seeds to make it happen.

Originally Posted by bessiedog

No
Classified

Waters.

Tis a silly idea.

Hard enough to get kids into fly fishing (aka the sport of the rich). It’ll be just another barrier.

And yes….. our rivers do suffer from BC guides plaguing our better more scenic stretches.
….
Let’s try and NOT ‘Eurozone’ our waters…….

This issue is very similar to paid landowner hunting access.

AH…Bessiedog, we’ll never see eye to eye on this. lol. Twas ever thus, and c’est la vie. Your argument about fly fishing becoming the domain of the rich and elite is absurd. I’ve taught school in poor, inner city neighbourhoods, these kids still manage to wear $200 ripped jeans and have $800 to $1200 Iphone / Samsung cell phones.

So an extra $20 to $40 per year, annually, isn’t excluding anyone.

It will help the fish, and manage the anglers better. As you point out, this is more about non-Albertans using our fisheries for dirt, dirt, ultra-cheap. It’s time this nonsense stopped.

As Parker Hale pointed out, you - as an Albertan - would hardly notice the extra costs.

Tight lines! I appreciate your pm’s from last year; would love to get out with you for a day!

-Smitty

P.S. And yes, Bessiedog I know (1) how to hike and (2) and I am working to get kids into the outdorss vis a vis a non-profit. An annual fee for Classifed Waters is not the major barrier.

P.P.S. Like I said, I spend more of my time doing actual ‘good’ in trying to make this happen by working behind the scenes. With luck, maybe 2025. Otherwise, by the end of the decade Classified Waters should be here in ES1.

[opto55]

Hi smitty9'
I agree with you 100%. Your ideas make sense to manage our fisheries.
I just returned from Fernie and fished the Elk river . The guides have the river all tied up.
I have no problem paying the daily fee for quality fishing.

[crazy_davey]

Excellent post Smitty!

[Parker Hale]

Hey Smitty, thanks for the kind words. I would like to make a clarification on one of your points.
"3. Albertan anglers come first; this would be the major difference between BC and AB. In BC, it would seem the guides have the power in terms of rod days and allocations. In AB, the everyday “Joe and Jane” angler would come first in allocations."
The rod day allocations for guides is only on out of province people, myself "Joe angler" I can still fish any of these waters any day on my yearly classified license. BC did what you state and put BC anglers first and I feel AB should do the same. It sucks that it has come to this, as a previous response says we're all Canadians but there are more and more of us and something needs to be done to protect these valuable resources.

[fishinisgood]

Originally Posted by Parker Hale

Hey Smitty, thanks for the kind words. I would like to make a clarification on one of your points.
"3. Albertan anglers come first; this would be the major difference between BC and AB. In BC, it would seem the guides have the power in terms of rod days and allocations. In AB, the everyday “Joe and Jane” angler would come first in allocations."
The rod day allocations for guides is only on out of province people, myself "Joe angler" I can still fish any of these waters any day on my yearly classified license. BC did what you state and put BC anglers first and I feel AB should do the same. It sucks that it has come to this, as a previous response says we're all Canadians but there are more and more of us and something needs to be done to protect these valuable resources.

I am totally unfamiliar with how the classified work in B.C. And I realize I can look it up but you seem to be in the know so I will ask. Buying a classified license allows you to still fish classified waters any day and time of the week? Residents don’t have limitations to allotted time?

[goldscud]

A few rivers/streams in BC have to be booked online at the start of the season to get a day to fish.
You can check the BC regs to discover which ones those are

[Parker Hale]

That is correct fishinisgood, from the Regulations:
If you are a B.C. resident:
Your Classified Waters Licence is valid for the
licencing year. This means you can fish on
any Class I or Class II water in the province
during the year.

[bessiedog]

‘Twas ever thus…?’

Hrumph… elitist

You prolly worship Satan too

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Parker Hale

...and BC guides should not be allowed to guide in AB. I'm with you there Uber, the playing field needs to be even.

Your posts are true, and thanks for posting, alberta fisheries are taking a beating with numbers going down and toss in congestion from anglers especially the easy to get to bodies of water.

I don’t agree with all the regs etc but we gotta start somewhere or we would have nothing in short order.

Too many people just don’t look at what negative impacts they are having on the fisheries.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by smitty9

THANK-YOU Parker Hale!

Usually, the Classified Waters rant is a beloved annual thing for me. I appreciate you taking on this burden. Lol

The system could easily work in Alberta. While it could be “inspired” by BC, it doesn’t have to be a “carbon copy” of BC’s.

Nor should it.

Here’s what it would look like in Alberta, pretty close to BC but different in guiding policies:
1. Annual fee for Albertans only. Something in the order of $35 to $40 once a year. This would defeat BessieDog’s absurd argument about elitism and sport for the rich.
2. Absolutely no guiding from outside the province.
3. Albertan anglers come first; this would be the major difference between BC and AB. In BC, it would seem the guides have the power in terms of rod days and allocations. In AB, the everyday “Joe and Jane” angler would come first in allocations.
4. No guiding on small waters like Livingstone.
5. Double fees for non-resident Canadians (BC’ers and Sask anglers), add a per day cost. Triple fees for non-resident, “alien” (US anglers) with a per day cost.

The main difference is that Classified Waters in Alberta would focus on serving the needs of the fish by managing anglers, and Alberta anglers would take priority, not guiding. This recognizes that SW Alberta has FAR LESS water to spread anglers out, as compared to the East Kootenays in BC. In BC, they must have like 10x the water we do with bulls and cutts. We basically have 3 main stems in the South Sask drainage; The Castle system, the Crowsnest river, and of course the Oldman (yes, I have ignored the Bow for now).

Classified Waters is long overdue in Alberta.

And I don’t spend much time anymore talking about it, I am working with bios, dialoguing, planting the seeds to make it happen.




AH…Bessiedog, we’ll never see eye to eye on this. lol. Twas ever thus, and c’est la vie. Your argument about fly fishing becoming the domain of the rich and elite is absurd. I’ve taught school in poor, inner city neighbourhoods, these kids still manage to wear $200 ripped jeans and have $800 to $1200 Iphone / Samsung cell phones.

So an extra $20 to $40 per year, annually, isn’t excluding anyone.

It will help the fish, and manage the anglers better. As you point out, this is more about non-Albertans using our fisheries for dirt, dirt, ultra-cheap. It’s time this nonsense stopped.

As Parker Hale pointed out, you - as an Albertan - would hardly notice the extra costs.

Tight lines! I appreciate your pm’s from last year; would love to get out with you for a day!

-Smitty

P.S. And yes, Bessiedog I know (1) how to hike and (2) and I am working to get kids into the outdorss vis a vis a non-profit. An annual fee for Classifed Waters is not the major barrier.

P.P.S. Like I said, I spend more of my time doing actual ‘good’ in trying to make this happen by working behind the scenes. With luck, maybe 2025. Otherwise, by the end of the decade Classified Waters should be here in ES1.

Totally agree, another great post.

[58thecat]

My son has just gotten into fly fishing and has totally embraced it.
Mountain streams, the plan, the walk, the execution of all coming together to have that bite.....I am so glad he gets to enjoy this activity and that comes with some tougher regs being implemented along the way so that someday he can pass this onto his children.


I just got back from BC and my dad and I were discussing the good old days and remember when the little creeks around his area were full of fish, spawning salmon etc but now the area is over grown with people and the old creeks are non existing

The river systems around these areas would be the same had not implementation of regulations over the years....I remember talking to my dad back then and he was grumpy about it but 40 years later he see’s the reasoning.

Still got places to wet a line

[smitty9]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

‘Twas ever thus…?’

Hrumph… elitist

You prolly worship Satan too

LOL. If trout are Satan...then yes.

[fishinisgood]

Originally Posted by Parker Hale

That is correct fishinisgood, from the Regulations:
If you are a B.C. resident:
Your Classified Waters Licence is valid for the
licencing year. This means you can fish on
any Class I or Class II water in the province
during the year.

I can’t see this being a bad thing for residents then? It essentially limits non residents from a free for all on our fisheries