30 trail cams and 9 salt blocks stolen.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by creeky

Shoulda put that in there-seen that interaction ---many times.


Creeky....


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As I with the grizzly scenario I mentioned

Regardless feral horses are not a positive to the ecosystem, they compete with resources with native species even if the extent is debatable and the are an invasive species even if they look nice

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

It's as if all the little girls who swooned over Black Beauty, and all the boys who fancied themselves as The Man from Snowy River, grew up, met, and had kids.
Now, their dreams are tied to to the continued existence of the majestic wildies; facts don't matter.

You nailed it.
Putting emotions before logic is sure way to screw up wildlife management.
That comment about the kids and wife loved to see them is a good example where no logic was applied.
We need to look at the affect an invasive species has on the habitat, and not at its appearance.
If it was a herd of ugly pigs everyone would say shoot them.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by 59whiskers

A problem Alberta Wild Life Control Officer I knew about 25 years ago said those feral horses need to be removed permanently. Lots of competition with elk that are very scarce now 25 years later.

Is it the horses that are causing the scarcity?

[makin tracks]

with proper management, there should be room for all! from my observations grizzly numbers have increased in some of the area's i've been in. i would think the same with wolf and cougar, horse also, there is a balance, just hasn'r bwwn achieved yet. grass needs to be managed also, or we will see some nasty fires out west. same as all the cutblocks, trees disapearing, less fish, fewer moose deer, elk. ,i'm really not sure who is manageing what these days. won't really matter, if the land turns orange

[Battle Rat]

I cannot think of any instances where the introduction of an invasive species has had a positive effect.
What would be the negative effect of removing the horses?

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

You nailed it.
Putting emotions before logic is sure way to screw up wildlife management.
That comment about the kids and wife loved to see them is a good example where no logic was applied.
We need to look at the affect an invasive species has on the habitat, and not at its appearance.
If it was a herd of ugly pigs everyone would say shoot them.

So just because you don't want to look at the wild horses out there, no one eles should be able to either? people have the right to stop and look all they want! I'd also say the majority of Alberta residents feel the same way, you'd lose big!

where is your limit as to what an invasive species is, you may not like the results you so hope for? Evan if it was possible? lol.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

As I with the grizzly scenario I mentioned

Regardless feral horses are not a positive to the ecosystem, they compete with resources with native species even if the extent is debatable and the are an invasive species even if they look nice

yes they do to some extent, but what are the cattle doing out there? you see what they do to creeks etc? if there were less horse's , don"t you think there might just be less deer, moose, elk out west? do you think the numbers of predators would decrease that much? it's not rocket science

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

So just because you don't want to look at the wild horses out there, no one eles should be able to either? people have the right to stop and look all they want! I'd also say the majority of Alberta residents feel the same way, you'd lose big!

where is your limit as to what an invasive species is, you may not like the results you so hope for? Evan if it was possible? lol.

What I said was taking pleasure of looking at something has no basis of environmental impact.
Looking at something pretty is an emotion that holds no value to science.
What other invasive species are you alluding to?

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

And I have watched grizzly feed in the same slides as moose/elk/black bear peacefully too but that is not always the case

Small windows into interaction between species doesn’t mean that they always interact the same way

like a lot of people! lol.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

What I said was taking pleasure of looking at something has no basis of environmental impact.
Looking at something pretty is an emotion that holds no value to science.
What other invasive species are you alluding to?

you tell us what might be a invasive species out west, you seem to have all the logical answers? ha

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

I cannot think of any instances where the introduction of an invasive species has had a positive effect.
What would be the negative effect of removing the horses?

Nothing left to eat some of the grass down? I'm sure you understand that grass needs to be grazed to remain healthy and productive right? Either that or burn it off. That doesn't always turn out so good

How much time do you spend in the land of the horses out west? Sounds like a fair bit I'm assuming?

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Nothing left to eat some of the grass down? I'm sure you understand that grass needs to be grazed to remain healthy and productive right? Either that or burn it off. That doesn't always turn out so good

How much time do you spend in the land of the horses out west? Sounds like a fair bit I'm assuming?

Horses are very picky eaters and will not graze the longer grasses.
You will find long lush green grass growing next to short cropped grass of a different type in any pasture.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Nothing left to eat some of the grass down? I'm sure you understand that grass needs to be grazed to remain healthy and productive right? Either that or burn it off. That doesn't always turn out so good

How much time do you spend in the land of the horses out west? Sounds like a fair bit I'm assuming?

there is over 2.2 million acres of grass out west that 1200 horses are decimating to oblivion! or so a few want us to believe! beter management out west would improve results considerably, hunting season for grizzly, cougar and wolf, would manage numbers, or at least give the wild animals a better chance of survival! keep the horse population at a managable level, increase fees for range cattle, put some of that money into better studies and data! put more fish into the rivers, streams and lakes. to much jibber jabber from self interest groups.

[jetboat175]

What scumbags to thieve and steal, my guess is there vote liberal or ndp.....

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

Horses are very picky eaters and will not graze the longer grasses.
You will find long lush green grass growing next to short cropped grass of a different type in any pasture.

I'll have to watch for that in my horse pasture this year....
They do avoid the quack grass, I'll give you that. Seem to be rather fond of that long lush orchard grass though

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

Horses are very picky eaters and will not graze the longer grasses.
You will find long lush green grass growing next to short cropped grass of a different type in any pasture.

horse's from what i understand crop the grass, and cattle will pull the grass up by the roots? tell me which are more destructive?

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

there is over 2.2 millionsacres of grass out west that 1200 horses are decimating to oblivion! or so a few want lead us to believe! beter management out west would improve results considerably, hunting season for grizzly, cougar and wolf, would manage numbers, or at least give the wild animals a better chance of survival! keep the horse population at a managable level, increase fees for range cattle, put some of that money into better studies and data! put more fish into the rivers, streams and lakes. to much jibber jabber from self interest groups.

I see those horses every single day. Well the days I'm at work anyways. I'll have to start paying attention to the destruction. If I find it I'll try to post a pic or 2. Little tougher to see to the untrained eye I suppose, guess that's why I don't notice it compared to those that sound like they spend more time out there than I do

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I'll have to watch for that in my horse pasture this year....
They do avoid the quack grass, I'll give you that. Seem to be rather fond of that long lush orchard grass though

i had horses for three yrs, they had no problem with tall grass, seemed to like it! were hard on fences though?

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I see those horses every single day. Well the days I'm at work anyways. I'll have to start paying attention to the destruction. If I find it I'll try to post a pic or 2. Little tougher to see to the untrained eye I suppose, guess that's why I don't notice it compared to those that sound like they spend more time out there than I do

i'm sure they are no angels,ha i won't have hores here on the Hacinda again, but i still like seeing them around the farming areas, and out in the west country. almost all the group we camp with feel the same.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

horse's from what i understand crop the grass, and cattle will pull the grass up by the roots? tell me which are more destructive?

Don't know where got that from.
If there was any amount of truth to that every cattle producer would have the cultivate and replant there pastures every year.
Cows will cut the grasses off by cutting with the bottom jaw insisors against the palate.
This will leave a longer grass stem where horses can cut it of at ground level.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by creeky

Not a fan of all those cameras out there on crown land, upside is they've dispelled a lot of myths about them. Seen a cool viral vid recently of a grizzly running these horses.

Pic attached, shows plenty of grass + elk + horses all getting along.


Creeky....


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I don't see elk and horses getting along.
I see horses outcompeting the elk for the best grass while the elk get to eat on the edges.

Nature survives on a game of inches.
These little things add up to life or death.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by jetboat175

What scumbags to thieve and steal, my guess is there vote liberal or ndp.....

it is people? some are pure evil hate anything they don't like. the fellow who stole the cameras got caught, don't know if his helper has been yet. as far as i know the camera knapper, was stopped trapping horse out in the williams creek area several years ago, and had a vedetta against the Haws society. he could see some jail time, as he had a lot of cameras. just couldn't let his hate go!

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

Don't know where got that from.
If there was any amount of truth to that every cattle producer would have the cultivate and replant there pastures every year.
Cows will cut the grasses off by cutting with the bottom jaw insisors against the palate.
This will leave a longer grass stem where horses can cut it of at ground level.

I should have edited that, to what i saw! There was an area on the place that is always wet, that's were the cows had pulled grass up, never seen it anywhere else. horses would bite the grass off, cows tended to pull it, only had cows one year, was the last of that rodeo crap! ha.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

i should have edited that, to what i seen! There was an area on the place that is always wet, that's were the cows had pulled grass up, never seen it anywhere else. horses would bite the grass off, cows tended to pull it, only had cows one year, was the last of that rodeo crap! ha.

That one area that is always wet does not represent the general conditions of of the east slopes.
You have displayed the extent of your knowledge of animal grazing so it might be best if you just stop.
The elk that would fill the space left by any removed horses won't damage the forage quality of the area,

[creeky]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I don't see elk and horses getting along.
I see horses outcompeting the elk for the best grass while the elk get to eat on the edges.

Nature survives on a game of inches.
These little things add up to life or death.

Look again WB.

After grazing all night together on the valley floor those elk (20-30 hd)are heading up into their high timber day beds to escape the heat of the day + the people + the bugs.

Horses on the other hand are waiting to catch a little sun before doing the same.


Creeky....


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[Smokinyotes]

Originally Posted by makin tracks

I should have edited that, to what i saw! There was an area on the place that is always wet, that's were the cows had pulled grass up, never seen it anywhere else. horses would bite the grass off, cows tended to pull it, only had cows one year, was the last of that rodeo crap! ha.

Give me a break. Cows don’t chew the grass off shorter than horses and in 50 years of having cows I’ve never seen them pull it out by the roots. Horses are significantly harder on pasture grass than cows.

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

That one area that is always wet does not represent the general conditions of of the east slopes.
You have displayed the extent of your knowledge of animal grazing so it might be best if you just stop.
The elk that would fill the space left by any removed horses won't damage the forage quality of the area,

don't think anyone said or emplied elk would damage any forage quality of the area, i also don't think horses would do more damage than cattle would! so whats the problem oh wise one?

[makin tracks]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Give me a break. Cows don’t chew the grass off shorter than horses and in 50 years of having cows I’ve never seen them pull it out by the roots. Horses are significantly harder on pasture grass than cows.

Give me a break, who said cow's chew grass off lower than horses? Cows were in a wet area , that had some grass clumps on the ground, never noticed anything on dry ground. gone in the fall, I'll let someone else deal with cattle! and to be fair, had the horses for 3 yrs, and that was it for them to!
Have no real love for horses, but don't mind seeing them from the road or on the way out west.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by creeky

Look again WB.

After grazing all night together on the valley floor those elk (20-30 hd)are heading up into their high timber day beds to escape the heat of the day + the people + the bugs.

Horses on the other hand are waiting to catch a little sun before doing the same.


Creeky....


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Without writing your observation, no one would know what was occurring before or after the photo.
None of this means the elk and horses were getting along, not facing a negative impact from the other.

[270person]

Originally Posted by jetboat175

What scumbags to thieve and steal, my guess is there vote liberal or ndp.....

That makes zero sense for so many reasons.