Should we rename the whitefish?

[horsetrader]

Originally Posted by avb3

Good thing this isn't a Bass thread, eh horsetrader?

thats for sure Gus would drag me behind a seadoo if I made it a BASS thread

[0liver]

Hey Horsetrader whats your opinion on the BASS fishery in BRITISH COLUMBIA I wonder if they have any ISSUES with the NATIVE CUTTHROAT TROUT....gee I hope they don't get STUNTED or go EXTINCT....

[horsetrader]

Originally Posted by 0liver

Hey Horsetrader whats your opinion on the BASS fishery in BRITISH COLUMBIA I wonder if they have any ISSUES with the NATIVE CUTTHROAT TROUT....gee I hope they don't get STUNTED or go EXTINCT....

Well I don't th.......what .....uh..what is the rope for Gus....no..uhh---------------------s...h.....i---------------------

[Christofficer]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

Toothless Stinky Fish

Someone's been spending too much time down on 3rd ave....

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by horsetrader

thats for sure Gus would drag me behind a seadoo if I made it a BASS thread

Nah. Gus can call me and I'll drag you behind the Sea-Doo. I'll buy you the beer I promised you after, though.

[horsetrader]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

Nah. Gus can call me and I'll drag you behind the Sea-Doo. I'll buy you the beer I promised you after, though.

thanks .........

[jpietrzak1979]

I vote we call them "Meh, Lame Fish" encouraging people not to fish them leaving more for me.

[ak-71]

+1

[greylynx]

Our RM whitefish have a resemblence to the Filipino milk fish.

Rename them milkfish, and the rivers will be clean of those stinkys.

[wildman]

ps. i also like "Crackerfish"!!!!!!

[aulrich]

Undermouth BASS FTW

But I just call them fun and tasty

[Sundancefisher]

some people like ling cod...some like arctic grayling...so how about call it a

whiteling?

Actually...what I would call them are "going extinct fish". The historic literature tells of rivers swarming with whitefish...so thick at spawning times that you could walk across their backs and stay dry. Now...those same spawning grounds have relatively few whitefish left...yet we still hammer them with bait while they try to spawn. The populations of whitefish are crashed or crashing everywhere....yet no one cares.

This is the worst ongoing travesty that Alberta Fish and Wildlife still strongly supports. This is the only fishery that they have regulations in place that actively encourages you to catch them before they can spawn. Shame on us for not sending emails into F&W to have them stop the spawning slaughter!

How utterly stupid is that?

Sun (Free to protect the Whiteling)

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

some people like ling cod...some like arctic grayling...so how about call it a

whiteling?

Actually...what I would call them are "going extinct fish". The historic literature tells of rivers swarming with whitefish...so thick at spawning times that you could walk across their backs and stay dry. Now...those same spawning grounds have relatively few whitefish left...yet we still hammer them with bait while they try to spawn. The populations of whitefish are crashed or crashing everywhere....yet no one cares.

This is the worst ongoing travesty that Alberta Fish and Wildlife still strongly supports. This is the only fishery that they have regulations in place that actively encourages you to catch them before they can spawn. Shame on us for not sending emails into F&W to have them stop the spawning slaughter!

How utterly stupid is that?

Sun (Free to protect the Whiteling)

Are you sure this has nothing to do with introduced predatory species, increased water temperatures and huge nutrient loads? ie transformation of the environment


Nothing is the way it was. That doesn't make it unsustainable.

Can you identify watersheds where whitefish would qualify as being of conservation concern?

[buckmaster]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Are you sure this has nothing to do with introduced predatory species, increased water temperatures and huge nutrient loads? ie transformation of the environment


Nothing is the way it was. That doesn't make it unsustainable.

Can you identify watersheds where whitefish would qualify as being of conservation concern?

X2, beat me to it.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Are you sure this has nothing to do with introduced predatory species, increased water temperatures and huge nutrient loads? ie transformation of the environment


Nothing is the way it was. That doesn't make it unsustainable.

Can you identify watersheds where whitefish would qualify as being of conservation concern?

The Oldman River, Bow River, Red Deer River, North Saskatchewan River and Athabasca River watersheds have all taken significant drops in population based upon "anecdotal" reports. Unfortunately when I did a larger literary review of fisheries studies in Alberta, the lowly whitefish was never studied to gain a base line. Instead the reports circled around how "overly" abundant the whitefish were and what could be done to make more room for trout.

Therefore I grant the "science" is not there to back up what I believe is true but when you see how many whitefish used to be around versus today...it is quite dramatic. If there are any 70-90 year olds on this forum...I would love to hear what you remember seeing when you were younger.

As for habitat...that is not a critical factor on whitefish given the proximity of the streams and the habitat they reside in. Their basically looking for the same habitat as any trout in which to live and grow and reproduce. Increased nutrient loading actually benefits fish populations...like in the Crow and Bow.

Water temps come and go as they always and vary year by year and watershed by watershed but the loss of whitefish numbers is common to all areas with greater loss in areas with a high fishing pressure in the Fall.

I remember fishing in a few places in my youth for whites and the banks were lined up with dozens of guys every day killing their 10 whites a day in 1998 to 5 today. I seem to recall it being 20 a day at one point.

The best predator in these streams were and still are bull trout. They are the evolved predator and when Europeans first reached the Rockies...there were photos of hundreds of 10 pound plus stringers of bull trout from rivers the size of the Elbow. These rivers don't hold near as many as their was back then while still support ample numbers of whitefish back then also.

Removal of whitefish before they spawn dramatically reduces their numbers. They are prolific spawners but still...you can't see their numbers increasing if we continue to stop them from spawning. It is so wrong it is laughable.

If there were lots more whitefish...the bull, brown, rainbow and cutt populations would improve as those tasty little young of the year is a great food source as is the 1 and 2 year old whites.

[buckmaster]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

The Oldman River, Bow River, Red Deer River, North Saskatchewan River and Athabasca River watersheds have all taken significant drops in population based upon "anecdotal" reports. Unfortunately when I did a larger literary review of fisheries studies in Alberta, the lowly whitefish was never studied to gain a base line. Instead the reports circled around how "overly" abundant the whitefish were and what could be done to make more room for trout.

Therefore I grant the "science" is not there to back up what I believe is true but when you see how many whitefish used to be around versus today...it is quite dramatic. If there are any 70-90 year olds on this forum...I would love to hear what you remember seeing when you were younger.

As for habitat...that is not a critical factor on whitefish given the proximity of the streams and the habitat they reside in. Their basically looking for the same habitat as any trout in which to live and grow and reproduce. Increased nutrient loading actually benefits fish populations...like in the Crow and Bow.

Water temps come and go as they always and vary year by year and watershed by watershed but the loss of whitefish numbers is common to all areas with greater loss in areas with a high fishing pressure in the Fall.

I remember fishing in a few places in my youth for whites and the banks were lined up with dozens of guys every day killing their 10 whites a day in 1998 to 5 today. I seem to recall it being 20 a day at one point.

The best predator in these streams were and still are bull trout. They are the evolved predator and when Europeans first reached the Rockies...there were photos of hundreds of 10 pound plus stringers of bull trout from rivers the size of the Elbow. These rivers don't hold near as many as their was back then while still support ample numbers of whitefish back then also.

Removal of whitefish before they spawn dramatically reduces their numbers. They are prolific spawners but still...you can't see their numbers increasing if we continue to stop them from spawning. It is so wrong it is laughable.

If there were lots more whitefish...the bull, brown, rainbow and cutt populations would improve as those tasty little young of the year is a great food source as is the 1 and 2 year old whites.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by buckmaster

d'oh what?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

d'oh what?

D'oh a deer a female deer. Should this be on the hunting thread?

[BeeGuy]

There is considerable literature on P.williamsoni wrt Alberta.

You will not likely find scientific studies for any species from >80yrs ago.

For this time period, the only records would be commercial, and riverine catches are not as well recorded as lacustrine hauls due to their more, 'opportunistic', and less commercially viable nature.


There is data that would qualify as baseline for this species at least as far back as the mid-70's.

Articles can be posted if you want, just ask.

[chubbdarter]

Mother nature will eventually fix the problem

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

There is considerable literature on P.williamsoni wrt Alberta.

You will not likely find scientific studies for any species from >80yrs ago.

For this time period, the only records would be commercial, and riverine catches are not as well recorded as lacustrine hauls due to their more, 'opportunistic', and less commercially viable nature.


There is data that would qualify as baseline for this species at least as far back as the mid-70's.

Articles can be posted if you want, just ask.

I agree.

No real commercial mountain whitefish fishery. Subsistance netting maybe. Lots for lake whitefish but not mountain.

Mountain whitefish were never a desirable food or sport fish...even less so than bull trout back then.

http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/ar.../whitefish.htm

If this link is true...Montana has a limit of 100 Mountain Whitefish. Crazy...but in the larger warmer waters with limited harvest...they may get away with it. Harvest up in Alberta has always been very high and targetting heavily during the spawning migration.

I am not so sure the baseline data would necessarily work to compare historical numbers to today's numbers. It certainly would show a continued decline in numbers from the 70's to today. What is lacking is the ability to track population density over time and also follow any trends affecting trout populations...either negatively or positively.

The montana link above...while not scientific claims to purport trout and mountain whitefish don't compete.

That I do not agree with. I find it hard to see that being the case. It is just that there are year classes of whitefish that will add high quality food resources to certain size classes of predatory trout.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

The Oldman River, Bow River, Red Deer River, North Saskatchewan River and Athabasca River watersheds have all taken significant drops in population based upon "anecdotal" reports. Unfortunately when I did a larger literary review of fisheries studies in Alberta, the lowly whitefish was never studied to gain a base line. Instead the reports circled around how "overly" abundant the whitefish were and what could be done to make more room for trout.

Therefore I grant the "science" is not there to back up what I believe is true but when you see how many whitefish used to be around versus today...it is quite dramatic. If there are any 70-90 year olds on this forum...I would love to hear what you remember seeing when you were younger.

As for habitat...that is not a critical factor on whitefish given the proximity of the streams and the habitat they reside in. This is absolutely criticalTheir basically looking for the same habitat as any trout in which to live and grow and reproduce. The ecology of Brown Trout and RMW are very different although their ranges can overlap Increased nutrient loading actually benefits fish populations...like in the Crow and Bow. Nutrient loading is a death sentence for some species of fish. A massive influx of nutrients is why we see huge ecological differences between the low, middle, and upper Bow

Water temps come and go as they always and vary year by year and watershed by watershed but the loss of whitefish numbers is common to all areas with greater loss in areas with a high fishing pressure in the Fall.Increased siltation, reduced canopy, increased water temps, invasive and introduced species are all common to areas you suggest RMW's are in decline.

I remember fishing in a few places in my youth for whites and the banks were lined up with dozens of guys every day killing their 10 whites a day in 1998 to 5 today. I seem to recall it being 20 a day at one point.

The best predator in these streams were and still are bull trout. If these places you recall include the Bow, the Bull is now certainly replaced by the Brown in this regard. They are the evolved predator and when Europeans first reached the Rockies...there were photos of hundreds of 10 pound plus stringers of bull trout from rivers the size of the Elbow. These rivers don't hold near as many as their was back then while still support ample numbers of whitefish back then also.

Removal of whitefish before they spawn dramatically reduces their numbers. They are prolific spawners but still...you can't see their numbers increasing if we continue to stop them from spawning. It is so wrong it is laughable.

If there were lots more whitefish...the bull, brown, rainbow and cutt populations would improve as those tasty little young of the year is a great food source as is the 1 and 2 year old whites.Perhaps this scenario has already played out many years ago, and the new 'balance' is partially what supports so many Browns

Just some thoughts there. I support conservation, and think the RMW is under appreciated. The RMW has an enormous distribution, 1,000,000sqkm++, and I think many would agree that without the knowledge/experience of how things were, the RMW appears abundant in many of the East Slope watersheds.

Anyone else have some anecdotes from back in the day wrt the RMW?

[BeeGuy]

Bit of a derailment here. Should we take it to a new thread?

[chubbdarter]

I have fished southern AB / BC creeks and streams for over 40 years.
Some things ive noticed is the lack of big schools of small 8-10 inch RMW in larger pools..not neccessarily deep pools. Tailing pools where its easy to view them. Strangely though way back when ..rarely did we ever catch a rmw at the head of the run , trout dominated that area. Now some very sizable rmw occupy those prime head riffles. I think the average size rmw has increased but numbers have declined.
The spawning run on the Flathead used to be large enough to attract alot of land based predators. The water was like chrome..I went in 2 years ago for a drive and to show some visiting relatives a grizz and the the run was very low.
Almost the same thing on the Bull river....under the Bull river bridge it used to be millions of fish strong...not as good now. Huge bull trout used to wait in the tail of the run waiting for spawning mortality. The sturgeon used to stack up at the juction of the Bull and Koot also.
Closer to home....the Crow used to be full of rmw in the average 11inch size....they would be in pods of 50 or so and the run would be void of trout. I stopped fishing the Crow after Vic invited the world. But on my last trip i remember catching some big rockies but never saw any big schools of them.
The same can be said for the Corbin, Alexander and Michael creeks. On these 3 creeks the cutty population and size is world class. But the big bull trout are almost non exsistant....still catch small bulls and brookies but the 5lb+ fish are rare. I know thats not a big bull at 5lbs but these are small creeks.

Could it be the regultions to protect the trout has forced people to harvest rmw when they normally wouldnt?

[BeeGuy]

For some of these you will need access to university library systems:

Observations on the Age, Growth, Reproduction, and Feeding of Mountain Whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) in the Sheep River, Alberta
Link

Movements of Mountain Whitefish (Prosopium williamsoni) in the Sheep River Watershed, Alberta
Link

The ecology and life history of the mountain Whitefish : (Prosopium williamsoni Girard) in the Sheep River, Alberta

For this one I believe you'll have to swing by the UoC library.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

Could it be the regultions to protect the trout has forced people to harvest rmw when they normally wouldnt?

I wonder what the SRD has for creel data.

Your comments suggest that on many of these creeks the species composition and demographics have changed significantly.

Overall, do you beleive that RMW's are of conservation concern? Generally or specifically?

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I wonder what the SRD has for creel data.

Your comments suggest that on many of these creeks the species composition and demographics have changed significantly.

Overall, do you beleive that RMW's are of conservation concern? Generally or specifically?

I think in many ways..this is what they want....TROUT is the favoured son of alberta....anything else is a kinda a black sheep.

I looked at some old pics and even though i have old pics of 5 gallon buckets full of rmw.....i dont see any rmw like the huge ones with the 1/2 inch up turned snouts we see today.
I also looked at some old b/w pics of bulltrout and they make our bulls today look like a ethiopian poster child.
Im no scientist...all i have for you is what ive seen

[Speckle55]

i have studys dating back to fifties and before 1936/37/38 in Alberta for RMWF
Dr D S Rawson/ in paper Food for the Rocky Mountain Whitefish Prosopium williamsoni (Girad) by J . L. McHugh (March 4 1940)

i also am a Ex WR holder for RMWF in the IGFA record books

Food for Thought
David

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

i have studys dating back to fifties and before in Alberta for RMWF

Food for Thought
David

Which studies are they and what data do they present?

[Gust]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Bit of a derailment here. Should we take it to a new thread?

No this is perfect, it's kinda the point on the renaming of both RMW and LW.

September and moreso October I used to stand on the Sheep River overpass and point out where in the school of whites the trout were and yell down and point out to my dad or cousin or an old italian guy (yes an old italian guy). The school which I've posted before was of a density from shore to shore and up and downstream as far as you could look,, it was a dark charcoal gray. When you would wade, they'd bump into your legs. Limit was 15, possession 30 (I'll go dig up some old regulations and reprint them here). Then a couple of years later it was like they vanished from those waters and all other holes. The trout weren't as abundant as one would think but I caught my first trout from the sheep, we called it a dolly varden then, it was a bull trout a little guy who fought like a Coho, had two other hooks in his mouth,, I ate him. I caught a 16" RMW in the Bow last year that I rank as a fight half way between a Rainbow and a Brown Trout, leaning more to Rainbow,, when I thought she was tuckered out she would turn and drag me back out to the big flow, over and over and over again, nice and intense.