Stop commercial fishing on Lake McGregor

[BlackHeart]

I don't think we all know the whole story and the inter-relationships.

I have talked to a commercial fisherman (he is a member here).
They target whitefish on slave. There is a by catch of other species, some marketable and some like burbot not marketable.

His view point is that netting whitefish has reduced their numbers to a manageable level that the lake can sustain, thus creating bigger fish for all including the sport fisherman.

But they do not allow the net targeting of walleye. The result is that the lake is overpopulated by small stunted walleye. Some of his by-catch showed this -not a single decent walleye-only stunted ones and anybody that has fished Slave knows you can catch a lot of small walleye but rarely a large one.

One of the by-catches is also burbot and that was why I was there......to take some of this rather than it going to waste. This was interesting.....a large number of these burbot had tail fins sticking out of their mouths. When gutted or pulled out with pliers, it generally was a 12inch walleye. In the batch of burbot we got, there was about 12 of these walleye sticking out and many more inside of them. Man can these fish swallow stuff......new tactic to fish burbort will be to rig a 12" bait.

So do I know whats best for the management of our fisheries......not really.....I'm not a biologist and have no knowledge of the inter-relationships, what causes what, nor even a good knowledge of the commercial fishing rules and practices.

So I would encourage others to actually investigate the issue before jumping to the conclusion that commercial fishing is bad (like I was guilty of as well) and that it is a win-lose senario......in fact it may be a win-win situation if the objective is more and bigger fish for everyone.

By the way burbot aren't as good eating as I had hoped or others claimed....a bit rubbery and bland so that would explain why there is no market for it.....but we still eat it as its fish....but I beleive it will be very good smoked.....anybody want to try it.

On the waste of burbot, you can easily do something to fix that.....talk to a commercial guy.....as they can also be outdoorsmen and as such would rather not have anything go to waste......and you can pickup the burbot by catch for your freezer.....as well as some for those who cannot afford fish on the table and need food or help.....thats what I have done and so can any of you who know how to fillet a fish...I am sure you will learn something and maybe make a freind in the fight to ensure there is fish for our children.

[slimjim]

If you are signing the petition against commercial fishing, you should also start a petition against the walleye draw. There are many better ways to look after our fish than charge fishermen a tax to catch one fish. The money from the walleye draw goes into general funds, that goes to pensions for our great politicians.

[Lonnie]

I"m now shure most of the younger generatoin is just plian stupid if they stopped netting white fish how long do you think that you would have any game fish even a tree hugger shuold be able to see the whole picture and not just the fish at the end his or her nose. green peace got papper with alot of signatures to stop the seal harvest and wiped out most of fishing industry,cod still has not recoved from that. that was atleast 20years ago.poor seals got to eat to guess what they eat? white fish eat alot of fish eggs if you want walleye & pike you have to keep white fish population low or they will wipe all other fish populations out. when you net fish alot get damaged hopefully mostly white fish but your bound to get a few others as well.but get that papper full of signatures and stop commercial fishing,and get the fishing sportsman to sing it.as it was mostly the workers of the fish prossessing plants that signed the potitions to save the seals.then wonderd what happen to their jobs smart bunch.

[Crossfire]

If we as anglers are not allowed to keep walleye they should not be able to either we should all be on an even playing field.

[Lonnie]

crossfire that is the point you are not on even playing field commercial fishing is not sport or fun. its wet cold hard work and the % of walleye caught in there nets is small most would likely die any way and that is why they get to keep them and they had better be only afew or the fish cops would be all over them what would you have them do throw them back.and the one that are dead or die would get them charged under the f&g act for wasting meat. use some common sents.

[Lonnie]

sorry F&g should have been fish & wildlife act

[dezmo]

Originally Posted by slimjim

If you are signing the petition against commercial fishing, you should also start a petition against the walleye draw. There are many better ways to look after our fish than charge fishermen a tax to catch one fish. The money from the walleye draw goes into general funds, that goes to pensions for our great politicians.

i thought the same thing it sure is dumb wat there doing, a guys gotta go to sask the fishing there is awsome and u can keep 5 walley in some lakes...

[SNAPFisher]

Topics like these know no bounds of scope. Even the oil industry was brought up at one point....

Anyways, I think it is great to see someone like muddywaters taking action and huge interest in an area that he obviously cares for. Good on ya mate!!

I'll take muddy's word on this one as I have never fishing McGregor. Sounds like he know it well.

I'm not against the commercial fishery. As it has been stated it is a practice in existence for a long time. I also would refrain from blanket statements that it should be banned everywhere.

I would hope that lakes that are fished commercially have a good balance and are able to sustain it. Where it is not sustainable then I agree that it should be stopped.

Cheers!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by gor

keeps them after the whites, not a big loss for most fisherman.
also stops white from eating spawn eggs.

gor...can you please explain this statement? Whites would not eat any spawned eggs from from other species. Pike spawn in different habitat away from whites...walleye spawn in different habitat away from whites and down in the gravel... Pike and walleye spawn in the Spring...whites in the Fall. Not sure what your statement is implying. I am not aware of any significant concerns in fisheries with respect to whitefish.

Lake whitefish are a prey species. A healthy population of lake whitefish will only benefit pike, walleye, perch and burbot population.

IMHO

Thanks

Sun

[slimjim]

Buck Lake has a big commercial fishery, and a very healthy sport fishery in summer, as its the only lake in central Ab. where you can take home a walleye on a general license.

[muddywaters]

Gentlemen,

Thank you to the ones that are supporting my petition. Your help is more appreciated than you think. It tells me I am not alone in my belief that:

a. Commercial fisheries in (some) Alberta Lakes are severely depleting the fish population;
b. The commercial fisherman in Alberta, although a hand-full, take more than a lion's share of a resource that belongs to all of us, at the expense of the rest of us - sweet deal for them;
c. Us, the anglers, contribute to Alberta's economy 70 times more than the commercial fishermen do.

I do not expect the commercial fishermen on this forum to support my petition. Gentlemen, of course you are entitled to your opinions and I am happy to see that you stand up for them. Having said that I would like to comment on three notes posted by you:

a. You mentioned that we HAVE TO MANAGE the whitefish population in order to have a healthy walleye and pike population (???); to me this argument is like saying we have to take out 100,000 gazelles and wilder beasts per year so we can have a healthy lion population; eliminating pray will not result in bigger and more numerous predators; besides, I suspect that the lakes will be able to “manage” themselves if you let them be – they have done it for a long time.
b. You mentioned that the anglers should NOT ALIENATE the commercial fishermen as we will lose good allies when negotiating with the government (???); to me this is like saying: in an abusive relationship, the abused should not stand up to the abuser because the abuser will stop protecting the abused from the big, bad world.
c. You mentioned that NO MATTER WHAT THE ANGLERS DO, no matter how many sign the petition, nothing will change and the commercial fisheries will still be there; gentlemen, you seem pretty confident in your relationships with the Alberta Government; It is my hope that the 300,000 anglers in this province pay attention here and that we may be able to surprise you.

Cheers mates.
muddywaters

[slingshotz]

Originally Posted by muddywaters

a. You mentioned that we HAVE TO MANAGE the whitefish population in order to have a healthy walleye and pike population (???); to me this argument is like saying we have to take out 100,000 gazelles and wilder beasts per year so we can have a healthy lion population; eliminating pray will not result in bigger and more numerous predators; besides, I suspect that the lakes will be able to “manage” themselves if you let them be – they have done it for a long time.

That reasoning is exactly my thoughts and opinions as I have stated earlier but to play devil's advocate I have to mention in addition a few things.

McGregor is not a naturally occuring body of water, we (humans) messed around with the environment creating it in the 1920s from what was Snake Lake I believe. Then we stocked whitefish in 1938, walleye in 1938, 1949 and 1951 and perch in the 1940-1950s. The pike migrated into the lake from the river or might have been naturally occuring in Snake Lake.

So we have really messed around with a body of water for the last 80 years and in theory if we left it unchecked, nature would probably eventually balance everything out. I have no idea how long it would take for something like that to happen but that's never going to be an option to the government anyways.

My hypothesis on the state of things is that after the whitefish were stocked they obviously went nuts as there were little/no predators around (aka Lake Sundance). However, since I assumed we wanted to harvest them, we filled the role of the predator by netting the crap out of them to keep them in check. Over the many decades, people grown used to harvesting the whitefish every year and now many people still have that mentality that we need to net them or they will take over the lake. And part of me does believe there is some truth in that as I don't think there are enough predators to keep the whitefish in check since we never let the predators take a good foothold in the food chain. But since I'm not a researcher I have no idea if there are really not enough predators. I feel that if we can slower lower the netting over a few years time, it'll give the predators a chance to boom with the slowly increasing food source. I'm not sure that suddenly stopping the netting is the answer. Since we might be the biggest predator right now, removing us might be like removing most of the big pike out of a regular lake. We need to gradually replace us with a different predator.

However, if we are harvesting way too much in comparison to how fast the whitefish are breeding and taking food away from other predators then my hypothesis is out to lunch, but stangely the solution is still the same, we need to lower the netting!

[cujo1969]

I think there is to many whitefish in mcgregor stunting there size and affecting the pike population. Ilike to see them net the crap outta it see if can get back to the great pike fishin. We are the problem removing to many of the predators thru sportfishin even the catch and release guys.

[muddywaters]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
For the ones that have joined us later, I have fly-fish, spin-cast and ice-fish for 37 years altogether, out of which 14 years at Lake McGregor. When I say that the quality of sports fishing on Lake McGregor has deteriorated, I based that on my personal experience and not on theoretical knowledge.
First, I want to personally thank you for your support with this petition. It takes courage to stand up for what you believe and you showed it.
Second, I encourage you to send this petition to all of your friends that share your views. They don’t have to be anglers. Any Albertan concerned about this natural resource of ours and its “management” by our government can sign it.
Third, I would like to update you on the latest developments. Today at 06:45 am I was interviewed live by Mr. Jim Brown of the CBC Radio, on the Calgary Eye Opener. I thank Mr. Brown and his colleague Kimberly for their interest in this matter and for bringing our concerns to the public’s eye.
As I understood from the CBC investigation, newer data has emerged and I would like to share it with you. Here it is:
- There are currently 6 commercial fishing licenses for Lake McGregor. I found later that there are actually only 3 fishing companies that have these licenses.
- The yearly quota for the lake is: 90.5 metric tons of whitefish, 1.4 metric tons of northern pike and 0.55 metric tons of walleye – remember this is split between these 3 commercial fishermen.
- The government “monitors” the health of the lake fish population by the numbers that the commercial fishermen report – this year they reported catching 86 metric tons of whitefish.

So, here is my take on it:
- 3 commercial fishermen have a very lucrative deal: they can take out of McGregor ~31 metric tons of fish per year each (walleyes, pikes and whitefish); works out to ~30,000 fish/year each that can be bought at your local Superstore for $18-$20 per fish. Not bad for 2-3 weeks of netting in November - you do the math.
- The netting takes place mostly in November when the whitefish spawn – the caviar is processed and as I understand it goes to Japan; apparently that is where the real prize is. And there goes a good chunk of next year’s generation.
- The government “monitors” the health of the lake fish population only by what these 3 fisheries report as catch. Wow, no wondering why the anglers don’t catch much.
- The anglers contribute to Alberta economy 70 times what the commercial fishermen do ($350 MM vs. $5 MM). No contest here.

So, how come so few can “harvest” so much at the expense of so many? I suggest you sign the petition and ask your friends to sign the petition and we will find out.

If this petition will work out for Lake McGregor, why not for Lake Newell or Ghost Lake or Buck Lake?

If you are interested to see signatures and comments on this petition, please go to the www.ipetitions.com on Environment and Wildlife and check it out.

Cheers mates.
muddywaters

[cujo1969]

When did the fishing deteriate on mcgregor the have comm fished it for 40+ yrs mostly catching whitefish. We fished this lake for 40 yr also and yes it not as good used to be. Seems like wen they put all the walleye in the pike suffered.

[muddywaters]

I have emailed and requested support with our petition from the following organizations:

Alberta Conservation Association
Alberta Fish and Game Association
Trout Unlimited Canada
Hook & Hackle Club Calgary
Women’s Fly Fishing Association of Alberta
Brooks Fly Fishing Club
Fly Fishing Alberta
Lake McGregor Country Estates
McGregor Realty
Global Calgary
CTV Calgary
Calgary Herald
Calgary Sun

Ducks Unlimited has already answered me - they mentioned that their focus is water birds and wetlands and not fish. So they politely declined. Thank you Duck Unlimited for considering it.

If any of you know of any other organization that may support us, please feel free to contact them.

REMEMBER: THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE ANGLERS TO SUPPORT THE PETITION. ANYONE IN ALBERTA CAN SIGN IT.

Cheers
muddywaters

[unclebuck]

Muddy, have you ever helped or been on the ice when a commercial fisherman pulled his net on McGregor? If so, what were the contents of that net as a percentage of gamefish to whites? Have you ever been on site when the fish were dressed to know, if in fact the females were full of spawn? Have you ever questioned a commercial fisherman as to what he gets on a per pound basis for his fish from the Fresh Water Fish Marketing Corp.? His expenses come out of that price(usually about $1/lb). Unless you have done the foregoing, your intentions do not seem honourable. You can bet your bottom dollar it is not the lucrative enterprise that your eyes see at Superstore or Sobeys. If it was, would there not be a hue & cry for the government to open more lakes to commercial fishing and allow more licenses. Why would you expend all of your energy targetting a legal, closely monitored business, when we have such a large uncontrolled and unaccountable harvest of all gamefish in our province by our indigenous people that should be targetted? Perhaps we have the beginning of a new "Temperance Movement".

I am not a commercial fisherman, but I have on many occasions helped friends that are. The incidental catch of walleye and pike is minimal, as the fisherman is restricted to areas of a lake that do not for the most part contain gamefish. In all of the times that I helped, there was never a walleye in the net. There was the odd pike and burbot, however, the areas were not areas that sportsfishermen would fish.

[muddywaters]

Hello, unclebuck! How are you?

Good questions all of them. Let me see if I can answer in the order they were asked:

I have never helped a commercial fishermen pull a net out of McGregor or be there when the fish were dressed. Family friends and fishing pals of mine, people that I know and respect for 17 years and who actually introduced me to McGregor Lake where present many times and here is what they told me:

- The commercial fishermen took all that was in the net: whitefish, pike and walleyes; my pals were not able to estimate the ratio of pikes or walleyes to whitefish but they said that the majority was whitefish;
- My pals actually bought whitefish from the commercial fisherman when he came on shore; they each bought 10 whitefish at ~2 lbs per fish; however, the fisherman issued them receipts for 75 lbs of fish each although he charged them only for what they bought (~20 lbs); my friends and I still don't understand this one; anybody has any idea?
- The fisherman chose to sell them only male whitefish (you can easily tell by the bumps on their heads without dressing them) as the row from the females were too valuable and not for sale;
- If you go on the petition website, there is at least one other gentleman that witnessed commercial fishermen selling catch like this on shore; I do not know this gentleman.

I do not believe that the commercial fishermen sell their fish to Superstore or the fish market for ~$20/fish - it has to be less; I also do not believe that they sell it as low as ~$1/lb - it has to be more.

I do believe that commercial fishing is a legal business and that it has its place in Alberta economy; having said that, I strongly believe that it is NOT closely monitored - how can it be when the government relies only on data given to them by the commercial fishermen? Because of it, I strongly believe is seriously damaging the quality of the sports fishing on McGregor; people that lived there for 50 years and people that fished there for over 40 years agree with me - please see comments on the petition website.

I do not consider 1.4 metric tons of northern pike and 0.55 metric tons of walleye per year "minimal catch". The walleye limit for anglers is 0 and the limit for pike is 3 pikes > 63 cm. Can't remember the last time I caught a pike > 63 cm.

I do not have enough data on fishing by the native people. Therefore I cannot comment on this matter - I wouldn't even know where to begin. If you do have data, please share it with the rest of us.

Regarding my intentions, unclebuck, please believe me when I say: this is not, and let me repeat this: THIS IS NOT a personal vendetta. I do not know any of the gentlemen that commercially fish McGregor nor do I have anything against them personally. I am NOT trying to destroy lives here.

Judging by the comments you see here on this forum and on the petition website you cannot but realize that many people like me noticed that angling on McGregor is dying a slow death. We have to do something. It is hard for me to look at the numbers from the commercial fishing and say: I know, I don’t think they impact the lake population all that much.

Sorry for being a little winded with my answer, unclebuck. I am not that bad of a guy and my intentions are not dishonest.

Cheers
mddywaters

[Grizzly Adams]

Let's get real here, guys. Once you succeed in banning one thing, you may not approve of, your ass may be on the line, next time around. The commercial fishery is managed, so as to be sustainable. One of those traditional things, just like trapping. Better not mess with it.

Grizz

[young]

i have read most of the comments. something i noticed someone wrote how the commercial fisherman has quota so much whites, pike, and walleye. if commercial fisherman takes 200 lbs of walleyes at say 2lbs each they get to take 100 walleyes out of a lake i think that is 100 too many.

[muddywaters]

Hi, guys!

I completely agree with you, young. Thank you for your support.

Regarding grizzly's comments that "the commercial fishery is managed so as to be sustainable" I would ask him on what data does he base his statement? As far as the CBC was able to identify, the government gauges the health of the fish population by what the commercial fishermen report as catch. I don't know about you but the analogy of the fox being in charge of the chicken coop comes to mind.

He also said that we "better not mess with it". Well gentlemen, we have two choices here:

a) We “do not mess with it”. In other words we do nothing now and hand over this common resource to the 3 commercial fishermen on McGregor for “management”. Might as well, because the anglers will soon catch didily squat. OR,
b) We do something about it now so we all can enjoy it for years to come. The choice is ours and we will be responsible for its outcome.

Cheers,
muddywaters

[muddywaters]

We have gathered 82 signatures so far on www.ipetitions.com Thank you very much for your support. Please send it to your friends even if they are not anglers. Anybody in Alberta concerned about this subject can sign it.

Cheers,
muddywaters

[terriblebear]

It seems that their is some opinion that lake whitefish over run a lake to the point that they hurt the pike population. Whitefish are a "super forage" for pike. If there is a over abundance of whitefish why not try and improve the pike population by creating more pike spawning areas on Mcgregor to increase pike survivalability so the pike reduce the whitefish population. This could mean more big pike and the growth rate of the remaining whitefish would improve. Win win situation.

[fish on]

Originally Posted by weedcatcher

From the 2010 Regs:

McGregor Lake Reservoir – Walleye limit 0; Pike limit 3 over 63 cm

so, do the commercial fishers have to follow these same rules? Or do they get to keep Pike of any size? How about Walleye? The fish that don't meet the size limit, or are the wrong species, do they get safely released? Or do they get to keep anything that gets into their net?

The type of nets they use a pike of any size will rip through

[mjoeyo]

I don't know much about commercial fishing, other than the frustration I feel when I see pictures on this forum of Hundreds of Burbot smashed up lying on the ice for the birds. Apparently a perfectly legal wasteful slaughter because there is no market for them. I don't know about anyone else but I'd buy local burbot fillet up at the IGA if I could. From what I see the commercial fishing Indusrty in Alberta needs to cut back on quota and sell some value added products locally instead. I've seen fish for sale at the market for $20-$25 per KG, all imported from somewhere. Sound to me like there is a perfect market opportunity right here at home.

[muddywaters]

I have been contacted by an angler regarding our petition for Lake McGregor. He told me of an event that happen to him recently. He made few points that I thought were good and I want to share them with you.

Here is the event: he went ice fishing for whitefish at McGregor. He caught 0 fish the first day and 4 fish the second day. As all the whitefish icefishermen know, sometimes the fish strikes when the lure lies on the bottom. When that happens, you hook the fish not through the mouth but on the side of the mouth or under the mouth. The Fish and Wildlife officer came, confiscated the fish and gave him a $200 fine for "snagging" whitefish under the mouth. He tried to explain the officer that there is no way a fishermann can avoid this. The officer replied by telling him to put the fish back in the water everytime this happen.

Here are the points he made: (1) It seems that the government uses this as a cash cow: they make $ when we buy licences and they make $ from fines on issues that are sometimes real (poaching) but sometimes imaginary (snagging - one man on ice with one line with one lure in the water). (2) The angler believed that if commercial fishing on Lake McGregor is stopped then the poaching would diminish because enough fish would be caught legally.

I tend to agree with both of his points. What do you think?

As an update, we have 95 signatures so far.

Cheers, mates. I wish you and your families a very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year.

muddywaters

[chubbdarter]

so to be clear
are most people here upset the walleye population is being harmed?
or just the fact whitefish or any fish should not be netted?

[chubbdarter]

I know i have one strong opinion and that is.....in no way should they profit from a walleye or pike accidentally caught or not!!!!!!!!
even if bioligist were there to remove the fish for studies ...id be happier anything but profitting from a fish which takes millions of dollars for OUR province to raise.
We cant say its a small percentage......try tell a fin an fur cop that when you have over your limit rod and reel fishing.

[JJMorrocco]

My late uncle used to have a commericial license for Edmonton area lakes. I did help him on occasion about 20 years ago - it was a very interesting process of setting and pulling nets never mind when the nets froze in! These fishermen were very closely monitored - to the number of nets, size, length etc. Wardens would come around at least once a day to check it out. And you had to report your numbers. The primary target was for whites, as pikes would tangle the net or rip it. Walleye / perch were rare as the nets were set in deeper waters. He never did get rich off of it and it was a lot of work. Yes there is a huge market for fish at Christmas time, but at $2 a fish its was hard even the to cover expenses.

My uncle did pass his license to his son whom fished a couple of years but was then forced out as he was too small of an operation and they 'culled' the group to only the big outfits.

I think net fishing is somewhat necessary, with the proper measurements and controls. It is much easier to control 50 net licenses and their quotas a couple weeks a year rather than 50000 anglers every day of the year that may or may not meet their limits each day. This passed summer at Pigeon can give evdience to what happens when populations are not controlled.

The problem that use to aggrevate me was the native net fishing - that was not controlled or enforced. They could ner whenever and where ever they wanted spawing grounds etc. I am pretty sure they never have to report numbers. The owrst part is when they are lazy and leave their nets in - I have been to lakes when the net has sat for a week with dead or dying fish....

[kevinhits]

I know I have been fishing on Mcgregor for years and the fishing has gone downhill every year. It is very frustrating when I used to be able to catch 5-6 fish per outing and know I get skunked pretty much everytime.