Whitetail population

[K3llyk@rjvnet.ca]

I'm an avid hardcore hunter. I live out in eastern alberta where there is or was a very good population of deer. But in the last 5 years the population has been dropping. Due probably to harsh winters. Yes. I also farm as well. In the last 5 years we have seen an increasing amount of ergot in our wheat. Ergot causes abortions in cattle. I'm just wondering if this ergot could be becoming a problem in our whitetail herd. I see the whitetails predominately in the wheat fields in the winter time. With so much desiccating now in crops. The crop is trampled and the deer are feeding heavily on those tracks. Ergot is a fungi that grows in wheat head. Maybe if someone knows if it affects deer. The mule deer are flourishing here. They are not a grain eater. They are are browser. I don't really see them in the wheat fields. Mostly in canola or alfalfa fields. Also in the brush. Just a thought. Something to ponder.

[waterninja]

that really is a good question. i remember when the grouse pop. was decimated by the pesticides sprayed on crops.

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by waterninja

that really is a good question. i remember when the grouse pop. was decimated by the pesticides sprayed on crops.

Umm, ergot is an infected wheat kernel, not a pesticide.

[Bushmaster]

Depending on where in eastern Alberta you are, there has been a massive effort to reduce the deer populations for several years.....ie. the CWD cull....and then last winters excessive snowfall on top of frozen/icy cover further decimated the deer herd due to starvation. As well, very few of the does that survived were able to bear fawns.

As to your question about the effects of ergot, I have no clue.

[K3llyk@rjvnet.ca]

No there was no culls here in our area. But to the east there was

[gman1978]

I have often thought the same thing about ergot. If there is a danger I would think it would be during the winter when they are feeding on grain piles. The ergot would be more concentrated in comparison to when it the crop is in the field unharvested. The cull and hard winters would likely be the greater cause but it can all add up. Also there are story's of guys spraying lorsban and seeing the deer not even make it out of the fields before they tip. Not sure about that but then again it all adds up and there was a lot of insecticide sprayed last year in certain areas.

[slough shark]

This year in my hunting areas I saw mixed things, In one area the mulies were way down from last year, whitetail seemed to me doing better or at least holding their own compared to last year overall numbers were down a fair bit compared to 4 years ago, the winters and the cwd culls have been brutal. The other area mulies are up from last year a bit and whitetail are down by a noticable amount. Same thing though cwd culls and hard winters aren't good, it's hard to watch when both of my long term hunting areas are basically targeted for killing as many of the deer as possible and it seems that very little is being done about cwd research...

[walking buffalo]

Interesting observations guys. It's good to see people viewing the situation with eyes wide open.

A Tlingit saying.... "Forgive me, for I am Human."

We do not always know what is the cause of events and it is wise to keep an open mind.

Originally Posted by slough shark

This year in my hunting areas I saw mixed things, In one area the mulies were way down from last year, whitetail seemed to me doing better or at least holding their own compared to last year overall numbers were down a fair bit compared to 4 years ago, the winters and the cwd culls have been brutal. The other area mulies are up from last year a bit and whitetail are down by a noticable amount. Same thing though cwd culls and hard winters aren't good, it's hard to watch when both of my long term hunting areas are basically targeted for killing as many of the deer as possible and it seems that very little is being done about cwd research...

There is an incredible amount of effort being made in the field of CWD research by a wide variety of research and policy fields.

A new concern is brewing regarding CWD. Research that will be published soon is showing that CWD-like proteins can be found in live plant material.

Food for though.... Do farmers think they will be able to sell CWD infected products?


http://bit.ly/1ap8Yuu
Uptake of Prions into Plants



"Using laser scanning confocal microscopy, we observed root uptake of fluorescently-tagged, abnormal prion protein in the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana, as well as the crop plants alfalfa (Medicago sativa), barley (Hordeum vulgare) and tomato (Solanum lycopersicum). Using serial protein misfolding cyclic amplification, a sensitive biochemical prion detection method, we have found evidence of prions in aerial tissues from these species, as well as maize (Zea mays). Both stems and leaves of A. thaliana grown in culture media containing prions are infectious when injected into mice and oral bioassays are underway for A. thaliana and other plants. Our results suggest that prions are taken up by plants and that contaminated plants may represent a previously unrecognized risk of human, domestic species and wildlife exposure to CWD and scrapie agents. "

[Ranch11]

This may be true, definitely worth maybe ding some research in. I'm in 501/500 and the deer population is going down as well, in my opinion. I also think that there is just more guys out shooting a lot of deer. Coworker shot 8 deer this fall, 8 deer! 3 of his own tags, 3 of his wife's tags, and two of his daughter's. That's a lot of deer! With the time, effort and money this guy put in, it may have been cheaper for him to buy a feedlot steer and get it butchered? I'd like to see maybe the supplemental tags maybe cut back a bit for a few years, let the herd flourish again. Or perhaps a draw for whitetail.

[Alberta Bigbore]

Ive seen alot of deer in my areas prior to the November 1st opener.

[Jimboy]

lt all started years ago when local farmers complained to their MPs that the whitetails were getting to be a nuisance , distroying their gardens and crops ,and demaned something be done , so what they did was open the seson for DOES , and of course most of you guys went out there and did a very good job of eradicating them to the population we now have , blame youselfs , me , lve never shot a doe in my life

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Jimboy

lt all started years ago when local farmers complained to their MPs that the whitetails were getting to be a nuisance , distroying their gardens and crops ,and demaned something be done , so what they did was open the seson for DOES , and of course most of you guys went out there and did a very good job of eradicating them to the population we now have , blame youselfs , me , lve never shot a doe in my life

The cull had very little to do with it.
Neither did the dow tags.

The last year of the cull tere were still plenty of deer about.

It was the weather and I perhaps the other natural factor the OP mentioned.

As much as guys like to claim that the cull is to blame that did not cause so many animals to starve come the spring.

[K3llyk@rjvnet.ca]

I agree. Badger. They have to even close the antler less season for a few years. That's the only way to control population is by harvesting the females. So that should be done. Close it. I've never shot a doe either. It just doesn't seem right to me, in my opinion anyway

[bubba300]

I live on east side of 210,didn't see as many whitetails as last year but there seems to be a lot more muley's this year.Seen some pretty small whitetail fawns,and snow is fairly deep already hopefully it doesn't get to cold for them.

[cheemo]

The deer are losing their habitat at an alarming rate out here in the grain belt and we as farmers wonder why the deer populations are declining at an alarming rate. Interesting that when I went to apply for my landowner mule buck tag the warden and clerk in the veg office were asking questions like, are u really seeing any deer out there? We counted more moose than deer this year was another comment from them.

Where my farm is we still have a lot of habitat left and our deer numbers are still quite strong. We had 3 cameras set up within 2 miles of my house and we had 17 different mule bucks and 16 different whitetail bucks on film. These cameras went out a week prior to nov 1 and were down by nov 1. Every time I see a cat knocking down bush on someone's land who is a hunter, I just shake my head.
This year was the first time I felt the need to post my land as these same farmers who clear their own land are now hunting in my area.

[58thecat]

Seen little deer 140 ish the largest but no above the 150 mark. Coyotes are thick a thieves so maybe this plays on it here. Moose are healthy in numbers 3 to 4 per quarter so things look promising that way.

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

The cull had very little to do with it.
Neither did the dow tags.

The last year of the cull tere were still plenty of deer about.

It was the weather and I perhaps the other natural factor the OP mentioned.

As much as guys like to claim that the cull is to blame that did not cause so many animals to starve come the spring.

For sure the cull had an effect.
Hundreds of deer slaughtered from aircraft.

And if course the hunter cull with extended seasons and doe tags.

I saw lots of md feeding on grain while on my hunt this year in eastern ab
Interesting question tho from the op.

[buckman]

Stop shooting the breeding does and the herd will soon come back.

The resource is not there just to fill your freezer.We should be happy with a Whitetail of either sex.

Not against taking a doe,just not two plus a Buck.

One tag one deer Buck or Doe is enough.

Take a look at how the Suffield Elk increased.The deer are as capable if given the chance.

[Jimboy]

Originally Posted by buckman

Stop shooting the breeding does and the herd will soon come back.

The resource is not there just to fill your freezer.We should be happy with a Whitetail of either sex.

Not against taking a doe,just not two plus a Buck.

One tag one deer Buck or Doe is enough.

Take a look at how the Suffield Elk increased.The deer are as capable if given the chance.

Now Badger , listen and stop shootig does.

[wind drift]

I don't think it's as simple as "don't shoot does". The buck to doe ratio is the key. If there are too many does per buck, the bucks get worn down from tending and breeding prior to winter. Harvesting does is important. Man is the only predator of deer that can be so sex-selective as to greatly distort the demographic balance of deer populations for long periods of time. From biologist Charles Alsheimer:
"Q: What is an acceptable antlered buck to adult doe ratio?
A: Most biologists agree that a ratio of one antlered buck for every one or two adult does is an appropriate goal. However, most would also agree that one antlered buck for every three adult does can provide good QDM results. Once the buck to do ratio goes beyond one adult buck to three adult does, any semblance of a quality deer herd begins to slip away as the bucks become more worn down and the overall health of the herd begins to suffer."

QDM refers to quality deer management. Perhaps the proper long-term optimum ratio can vary regionally, but the point remains. Good long-term deer population management includes doe harvest in balance with buck mortality.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

The cull had very little to do with it.
Neither did the dow tags.

The last year of the cull tere were still plenty of deer about.

It was the weather and I perhaps the other natural factor the OP mentioned.

As much as guys like to claim that the cull is to blame that did not cause so many animals to starve come the spring.

Do you know how many thousand deer were slaughtered in the cull.......when you are starting every year for about 5 years in a row with a few thousand less deer, you don't feel that is significant?

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by sakogreywolf

Umm, ergot is an infected wheat kernel, not a pesticide.

sorry i wasn't clear. my point was that a contaminated food source could be worse then weather or predators. the op has raised a very interesting question.

[coyotekiller]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

Ive seen alot of deer in my areas prior to the November 1st opener.

x2 same here

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Dacotensis

For sure the cull had an effect.
Hundreds of deer slaughtered from aircraft.

And if course the hunter cull with extended seasons and doe tags.

I saw lots of md feeding on grain while on my hunt this year in eastern ab
Interesting question tho from the op.

The cull barely impactred upon the population.

That is not to say that it had no effect at all but rather that the only effect is that it managed to basically stop the population from actually growing.

From one of the local F&W guys....
When it started we had denisties of something like 5 for every square mile and by the time it ended it was still about 4.
The goal was to reduce the herd to about 1 per square mile or something close to that.

But...with a population like we had and releatively good winters the animals were able to produce enough fawns to almost make up for all of the losses.
Population stable...not growing but not shrinking by by much either.

And then we had a late spring blizzard.
And then another and another.

I do not know what the density is now but it must be about 1 per square mile or less which again...was SRD's intent...apparently.

The weather did what the cull failed to do.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Do you know how many thousand deer were slaughtered in the cull.......when you are starting every year for about 5 years in a row with a few thousand less deer, you don't feel that is significant?

Sure...it managed to stop population growth but it did little to actually reduce the herd strength.

Listen... the last year of the cull I saw just as many deer as the first year.
So did everyone else I know out that way.

Places I frequented had resident herds that were about the same numbers as they had been the year before and the year before that and so on.

The cull seemed to have little impact from year to year....other vthan to halt population increases.

Then we had that late spring blizzard and folks started to talk about winterkills that were being found.... by the hundreds on area farms.

That next fall the population difference was obvious.
It was cut by about half.

[sns2]

F & W officer I spoke with this fall said emphatically that supplemental doe tags have negligible effect on deer numbers. Long, cold winters + deep snow + late wet springs = decreased deer numbers.

[K3llyk@rjvnet.ca]

I might add that this contamination of ergot is naturally occurring. It's a cross pollination of brome grass and cereal grains. It occurs when the moisture levels are quite high and it's about timing of the two plants. While they are blooming. Rye grass is extremely susceptible to ergot.

[whiskeywillow]

In my opinion it's the winters these last few years, over and above everything else that have hurt deer numbers... obviously there are pockets where overhunting and even trophy-poaching that takes a toll on bigger bucks and such... BUT, ergot???

I farm as well, and yah ergot has been more an issue recently than in quite some time.. but I cannot see an entire population of does (especially in a wide-spread area) not even possibly being hurt by ergot. I am not 100% sure on the percentage of intake tolerable by healthy animals, but one kernel here or there ain't gonna kill 'em... and if you think about DEER, they aren't going to chomp into a whole face-full of wheat and wind-up with that whole face-full (conicidentally) be full of ergot kernels! I highly doubt it guys. Even in fields high-percentaged in ergot, no deer is going to fill their face with the stuff-- never-mind the whole herd of does!! Blaming ergot would be very very far fetched.. if they were all eating out of the feed-bunk of some feedlot, (dumb-enough to feed grains high in ergot to their cattle) then maybe... but that DOES NOT happen. It would decimate the cattle, let alone deer! And no farmer or feedlot would risk having any part of that* No sir, no way.

In my particular area, while seeding in May, I personally counted more carcasses and rib-cages from winter-kill along bushlines and bluffs than I've ever seen yet. The long hard winter and extra snow is what's hurting the deer numbers in most areas...

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

The cull barely impactred upon the population.

That is not to say that it had no effect at all but rather that the only effect is that it managed to basically stop the population from actually growing.

From one of the local F&W guys....
When it started we had denisties of something like 5 for every square mile and by the time it ended it was still about 4.
The goal was to reduce the herd to about 1 per square mile or something close to that.

But...with a population like we had and releatively good winters the animals were able to produce enough fawns to almost make up for all of the losses.
Population stable...not growing but not shrinking by by much either.

And then we had a late spring blizzard.
And then another and another.

I do not know what the density is now but it must be about 1 per square mile or less which again...was SRD's intent...apparently.

The weather did what the cull failed to do.

If a F/W officer or any one else told you that, it is the biggest load of BS ever stated about CWD, at least in the area I have been familiar with for over 50 years.

[hal53]

Her goal is, and still is 1 deer per square kilometer, she likely will get bonus points for exceeding her goal......