Fall Index Netting (FIN) summary reports

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Gbuss

I appreciate the feed back. I think alot of bios think dump the fish in but never do a survey on the bait in those lakes. If your putting fish in they need a source of food to be sustainable. I know I have not heard of them stocking bait fish has anyone else heard.

Gbuss

I’ll play devils advocate again.... lol
If there’s not enough fish, and they are putting fish in, wouldn’t the baitfish numbers already be high in the lake from low to moderate gamefish numbers?

[Penner]

The common denominator is we as anglers fail to do our part to manage the fisheries. Just because there is a keep limit does not mean a person should be keeping their limit each an every time they are out on a body of water.

I fished a particular Lake a ton this summer, seen the same boats each weekend with the same group or family of anglers, keeping their slot limit, legally. I’m all for a family going out and enjoying the outdoors and having a occasional fish fry but we have to limit what we harvest. We do not have a stocking program nor the amount of fish bearing waters in this Province to sustain fish populations for the number of anglers pure and simple. Bio’s can only do so much with a small budget.

Walleye fisheries collapsed because of over fishing. Whitefish fishing has collapsed because of over fishing. The Pike fishing has collapsed because of overfishing. It isn’t because of anything else.

Either we go to a take and keep fishery or trophy catch and release in this province. We can’t have both without an extensive stocking program and rigid regulations.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I’ll play devils advocate again.... lol
If there’s not enough fish, and they are putting fish in, wouldn’t the baitfish numbers already be high in the lake from low to moderate gamefish numbers?

Pigeon should be a good looking glass for this. How many minnows for forage species do you see fishing it? I really see next to nothing. Might benefit from a forage kick start. Just a thought though.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Penner

The common denominator is we as anglers fail to do our part to manage the fisheries. Just because there is a keep limit does not mean a person should be keeping their limit each an every time they are out on a body of water.

I fished a particular Lake a ton this summer, seen the same boats each weekend with the same group or family of anglers, keeping their slot limit, legally. I’m all for a family going out and enjoying the outdoors and having a occasional fish fry but we have to limit what we harvest. We do not have a stocking program nor the amount of fish bearing waters in this Province to sustain fish populations for the number of anglers pure and simple. Bio’s can only do so much with a small budget.

Walleye fisheries collapsed because of over fishing. Whitefish fishing has collapsed because of over fishing. The Pike fishing has collapsed because of overfishing. It isn’t because of anything else.

Either we go to a take and keep fishery or trophy catch and release in this province. We can’t have both without an extensive stocking program and rigid regulations.

Whole lot of truths on this post. Agree.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Penner

The common denominator is we as anglers fail to do our part to manage the fisheries. Just because there is a keep limit does not mean a person should be keeping their limit each an every time they are out on a body of water.

I fished a particular Lake a ton this summer, seen the same boats each weekend with the same group or family of anglers, keeping their slot limit, legally. I’m all for a family going out and enjoying the outdoors and having a occasional fish fry but we have to limit what we harvest. We do not have a stocking program nor the amount of fish bearing waters in this Province to sustain fish populations for the number of anglers pure and simple. Bio’s can only do so much with a small budget.

Walleye fisheries collapsed because of over fishing. Whitefish fishing has collapsed because of over fishing. The Pike fishing has collapsed because of overfishing. It isn’t because of anything else.

Either we go to a take and keep fishery or trophy catch and release in this province. We can’t have both without an extensive stocking program and rigid regulations.

Everyone using realistic moderation would be a positive for sure and we all have personal control when it comes to keeping our limit or not. Responsible C&R practices is another we all can do to limit our impact

Unfortunately one thing that cannot be fixed is a large number of Alberta’s lakes are surrounded by houses adding pressure and impacting water quality.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Pigeon should be a good looking glass for this. How many minnows for forage species do you see fishing it? I really see next to nothing. Might benefit from a forage kick start. Just a thought though.

I don’t really see minnows any lake. Sometimes I’ll see them in the summer along the shoreline in a foot of water though. But I rarely see minnows in any lake to be honest.
Sometimes though when perch fishing and I’ll think it’s micro perch attacking the lure but it’s actually shiners.
Other than that I don’t really see them.

[Gbuss]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I don’t really see minnows any lake. Sometimes I’ll see them in the summer along the shoreline in a foot of water though. But I rarely see minnows in any lake to be honest.
Sometimes though when perch fishing and I’ll think it’s micro perch attacking the lure but it’s actually shiners.
Other than that I don’t really see them.

This is my point. I remember when I was a kid growing up on lake of the woods. I went dock fishing down on the docks for the float plains in town. A school of walleye must have pushed about a million shiners up in this completely closed off dock one way in and one way out. We caught fish after fish after fish. Tones of walleye. But when ever i fish here i see no schooles of bait like that in lakes. Fish here would benefit from something like that. But the bait fish population is vary minimal in about 90% of are flushable waters.


Gbuss

[Smoky buck]

Gbuss I am in full agreement that a lack of forage fish seems to be a problem in a lot of places and this goes beyond minnows in my opinion

I think lobbying for a test stocking of forage fish and study would be worthwhile to test the theory. It may not be the fast fix some dream of but could show results that could benefit Alberta’s fisheries in the long run

[Talking moose]

Would lack of forage fish indicate too high of gamefish numbers?
In lakes that have been “fished hard” and fish populations have collapsed or classified vulnerable, shouldn’t there be great amounts of forage fish due to minimal numbers of gamefish?
The balance of nature so to speak....

[Talking moose]

The way I see it,
If there’s too much baitfish in a lake, there’s not enough gamefish to keep them in check.
If there’s not enough baitfish in a lake, there’s too many predator fish in the lake.
It should balance themselves out.
Maybe more tags should be issued out or larger limits for lakes like pigeon if there is few baitfish.
I would imagine wabamum is devoid of baitfish as well since it’s zero limit. Catch and keep might fix that.

[fish99]

years ago at pigeon and buck lake you could wade in the shallow water on a sunny day and fill an ice cream pail full of minnows and u were good for the year if u froze them in small containers . the only minnows I have seen in pigeon this year are burbot and not many of them .
whitefish in deep water in pigeon used to spit up small minnows when caught , that was there main food source then , now even the walleye are on a shrimp only diet

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Would lack of forage fish indicate too high of gamefish numbers?
In lakes that have been “fished hard” and fish populations have collapsed or classified vulnerable, shouldn’t there be great amounts of forage fish due to minimal numbers of gamefish?
The balance of nature so to speak....

Not that cut and dry really

An over abundance of game fish can cause a decline in forage and then be followed by a decline in health/numbers of game fish. In time forage should rebound but that is going to take time and a major collapse of predators. Depending on the stage of this you will see different gamefish numbers/health. But that is if there is no other factors at play

Something many fail to realize is many game fish also provide forage. Two big ones that come to mind that everyone sees the decline is perch and burbot. Most anglers recognize perch as important forage but don’t realize burbot produce a huge number of fry that are targeted by other game fish. Whitefish play a roll as well

Alberta only recently backed off on game fish species that are a big part of providing forage in some lakes. They experienced years of pressure shifted in their direction do to less walleye and pike opportunities

Healthy lakes that produce quality game fish need good forage to do so and this comes in many forms

Personally I also question what maybe impacting forage beyond just predators

My opinion is that issues regarding Alberta’s fishery are not as simple as angler pressure and stocking of walleye alone but instead a combination of the two along with a mix of other factors depending on the body of water

Truthfully in many lakes I fish pike and walleye numbers are not what I find concerning. The quality and health of theses species can be an issue in some areas. Now when you start looking at the other species that also act as forage and minnows that rings alarm bells to me personally. Another is high numbers of shrimp in some lakes and a lack of forage fish

But all of this is only observation and means little without studying the ecosystem of a lake at an in-depth level to find all factors at play

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I don’t really see minnows any lake. Sometimes I’ll see them in the summer along the shoreline in a foot of water though. But I rarely see minnows in any lake to be honest.
Sometimes though when perch fishing and I’ll think it’s micro perch attacking the lure but it’s actually shiners.
Other than that I don’t really see them.

Gull Lake. Pretty much anywhere but especially during the burbot spawn. I get visited by minnow clouds about 5-6 down in say 14 FOW. It is impressive. Didn't identify what they are but there is plenty of them....sometimes takes awhile for the entire school to swim by. I'll bet Gull could recover faster than Pigeon as a result. Let's make the regs the same and call it a race! j/k

Muskiki lake, never seen more forage species than this lake. Truly amazing amount of minnows. Unlike most lakes I visit.

Lower Chain by AthB. A lot of different species I see there as well. Tigers often burp up fresh ones during the summer.

Just some examples that go the other way.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by fish99

years ago at pigeon and buck lake you could wade in the shallow water on a sunny day and fill an ice cream pail full of minnows and u were good for the year if u froze them in small containers . the only minnows I have seen in pigeon this year are burbot and not many of them .
whitefish in deep water in pigeon used to spit up small minnows when caught , that was there main food source then , now even the walleye are on a shrimp only diet

So it was fishermen that helped remove the minnow population?
Anybody wonder why in the regs it is recommended to use the minnows only in the water body you catch them in? And to just take what you need? Partly because you are removing a food source from one place to use in other places.
Very likely you were not the only one filling a bucket. Not saying this is the reason for forage shortages, but it is a part of it. Other reasons could be habitat, birds and others as well including large numbers of predators.
Sorry not trying to pick on you!

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

So it was fishermen that helped remove the minnow population?
Anybody wonder why in the regs it is recommended to use the minnows only in the water body you catch them in? And to just take what you need? Partly because you are removing a food source from one place to use in other places.
Very likely you were not the only one filling a bucket. Not saying this is the reason for forage shortages, but it is a part of it. Other reasons could be habitat, birds and others as well including large numbers of predators.
Sorry not trying to pick on you!

It’s to not introduce non native species into new water bodies is the reasoning behind it.

[fish99]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

So it was fishermen that helped remove the minnow population?
Anybody wonder why in the regs it is recommended to use the minnows only in the water body you catch them in? And to just take what you need? Partly because you are removing a food source from one place to use in other places.
Very likely you were not the only one filling a bucket. Not saying this is the reason for forage shortages, but it is a part of it. Other reasons could be habitat, birds and others as well including large numbers of predators.
Sorry not trying to pick on you!

I think we all know that in pigeon lake it was the over abundance of walleye that decimated all the other species of fish . other lakes with to many walleye have the same issue
to successful of a stocking program ?

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

It’s to not introduce non native species into new water bodies is the reasoning behind it.

Thats part of it.

[elk eater]

I also have to wonder about most lakes having walleye limits at zero and still have pike open. Kinda moves the pressure solely on pike doesn’t it ? Now here comes the family of 4 from the previous post and they are keeping a stringer full of pike that are already losing the battle to the rising walleye population.

Seems to me the same as very few lakes being open for Walleye moves pressure to a few lakes left open. Weekend warriors head out for a road trip to catch and keep the air walleye and then fish local to keep their pike. The added pressure to Calling and south buck lake has been evident to me.

[litwin]

This method kills 1%-2% of the lakes fish population, why is it not replaced with something more sustainable. Our lakes are already under heavy pressure and this method is killing off those larger fish that have the genetic adaptations to spawn and survive in these lakes.

[Penner]

Originally Posted by fish99

I think we all know that in pigeon lake it was the over abundance of walleye that decimated all the other species of fish . other lakes with to many walleye have the same issue
to successful of a stocking program ?

Perch yup. All other species 100% incorrect.

[calgarygringo]

Lots of info if you dig a bit on the internet of places in the northern U.S. where they have been doing studies on forage fish. They have also been stocking minnow type forage in many lakes instead of just more walleye. They are finding they walleye grow much better, produce better and find other fish have a better survival as well as the walleye don't eat them all.
Even the bios have told me the big issues we have is water level changes in southern AB hurts our spawning beds for future fish and food. If we had a better food supply many of these lakes and reservoirs would flourish way better based on some of the data I have seen. Last year I mentioned this to one of the bio's and he said he had read some of this too. It is also was chaper to stock minnows than millions of walleyes that take forever to grow then eat the rest of the lake out of house and home.

I guess bottom line is some states are starting to think outside the box and finding other ways to make things work. Here we just keep doing things the sam eold ways and complain nothing will ever work.

[cube]

Originally Posted by fish99

I think we all know that in pigeon lake it was the over abundance of walleye that decimated all the other species of fish . other lakes with to many walleye have the same issue
to successful of a stocking program ?

Agreed.
The matrix they use for the FSI was pulled out of thin air and never validated. This has lead to the major species imbalance we see in pretty much every walleye managed lake.

[trigger7mm]

Back in the 70’s any of the lakes in the Lakeland region, and many others as well, used to be loaded with spot tail shiners. Like someone said earlier, you could catch enough minnows with one swish of a minnow net to last all year if you froze them. I haven’t seen that now in a least 25 years.

[fish99]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Back in the 70’s any of the lakes in the Lakeland region, and many others as well, used to be loaded with spot tail shiners. Like someone said earlier, you could catch enough minnows with one swish of a minnow net to last all year if you froze them. I haven’t seen that now in a least 25 years.

and no minnows the worse the algae blooms are

[Penner]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Back in the 70’s any of the lakes in the Lakeland region, and many others as well, used to be loaded with spot tail shiners. Like someone said earlier, you could catch enough minnows with one swish of a minnow net to last all year if you froze them. I haven’t seen that now in a least 25 years.

And those lakes were largely void of Walleye.

Over populated Walleye not ideal either.

Balance is the key. Ain’t a simple game.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by fish99

and no minnows the worse the algae blooms are

Algae blooms are to do with the increase of water front homes and farm run off

Minnows have an extremely low impact positive or negative to algae

[WayneChristie]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Gbuss I am in full agreement that a lack of forage fish seems to be a problem in a lot of places and this goes beyond minnows in my opinion

I think lobbying for a test stocking of forage fish and study would be worthwhile to test the theory. It may not be the fast fix some dream of but could show results that could benefit Alberta’s fisheries in the long run

I think we have a whole new source of baitfish in Alberta, unwanted but still gamefish food. the Prussians reproduce so fast the predators should have a limitless source of food at least in the lakes someone dumps them in. which in time will likely be most of them the way the friggin things spread. Ive caught some pretty decent eyes who were crammed with carp minnows and some with big carp in them. If we could drop one down on a hook Id bet the big lake pike would gobble them up as fast as my favourite baitfish.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by WayneChristie

I think we have a whole new source of baitfish in Alberta, unwanted but still gamefish food. the Prussians reproduce so fast the predators should have a limitless source of food at least in the lakes someone dumps them in. which in time will likely be most of them the way the friggin things spread. Ive caught some pretty decent eyes who were crammed with carp minnows and some with big carp in them. If we could drop one down on a hook Id bet the big lake pike would gobble them up as fast as my favourite baitfish.

I have been curious if pike and walleye may benefit from the Prussian carp similar to how the smallmouth in the Great Lakes have from goby. Only time will tell but the potential is there

I would still prefer a native forage fish be stocked

[cube]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

I have been curious if pike and walleye may benefit from the Prussian carp similar to how the smallmouth in the Great Lakes have from goby. Only time will tell but the potential is there

I would still prefer a native forage fish be stocked

Your correct, only time will tell how this will turn out. In a complex food web like a lake there are often unintended consequences to things. For instance, while they might be great forage for mature walleye and pike perhaps they will also eat all the pike and walleye eggs which would lead to an eventual collapse. Hence, why invasive species are always risky.

I have, at least in the past, not been a fan of stocking outside of land locked puddles with sterile fish. Stocking is more complex and risky than most realize I think. We have in Alberta been great at moving disease with our stocking. This is not just IPN with our fish but also lung worm, liver flukes, etc etc. with other animals. You also have to worry about the genetics that your moving around. Just one example would be outbreeding depression. It is quite complex and expensive if you want to do it correctly and even then can have unintended consequences. That's why generally I prefer they just manage the resource and not screw around with it too much.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by cube

Your correct, only time will tell how this will turn out. In a complex food web like a lake there are often unintended consequences to things. For instance, while they might be great forage for mature walleye and pike perhaps they will also eat all the pike and walleye eggs which would lead to an eventual collapse. Hence, why invasive species are always risky.

I have, at least in the past, not been a fan of stocking outside of land locked puddles with sterile fish. Stocking is more complex and risky than most realize I think. We have in Alberta been great at moving disease with our stocking. This is not just IPN with our fish but also lung worm, liver flukes, etc etc. with other animals. You also have to worry about the genetics that your moving around. Just one example would be outbreeding depression. It is quite complex and expensive if you want to do it correctly and even then can have unintended consequences. That's why generally I prefer they just manage the resource and not screw around with it too much.

Completely agree and I have a feeling carp will effect other species through competition for food as well. There will definitely be some negative to invasive carp.

Spent a few years studying, raising, and stocking fish. There is definitely a lot of factors that need to be considered and even when man manipulates the numbers of a native species to a lake it has an impact.