Hybrid vehicles?

[trigger7mm]

Hybrid vehicles, love ‘em or hate ‘em? My wife is thinking of getting a Toyota Rave 4 hybrid. I know they might be good in warmer climate like say, L.A. or Houston, but what about up here in the frozen north? What’s it going to be like when it’s -35C? Anybody have one, a d what do you think? Thanks.

[JB_AOL]

Hope your planning for next fall!!. Lol.

Toyota hybrid's are not easy to come by (there's a reason for it).

The only "disadvantage" of these hybrids is your fuel usage will go up in the winter as it will be charging the battery more and using more of the gas side during cold days.

They are a great option for local trips (around town/city), as you will use electric most of the time, but higher speeds use gas.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

Hybrid vehicles, love ‘em or hate ‘em? My wife is thinking of getting a Toyota Rave 4 hybrid. I know they might be good in warmer climate like say, L.A. or Houston, but what about up here in the frozen north? What’s it going to be like when it’s -35C? Anybody have one, a d what do you think? Thanks.

The RAV Prime would be the model to pick up if you're going that way. They have 70 kms of electric only range and then they default back to 300 HP. hybrid system. Brother in law has a Toyota hybrid and has had zero issues with it outside of amazing mileage, summer and winter.

[KGB]

Stop this nonsense, this is Alberta, this is an oil country- burn carbon!
That’s how it starts- and in no time you will be eating granola for breakfast with soy milk non fat latte…slippery slope buddy, slippery slope…

[Dolly’s Mom]

We bought a Toyota Camry hybrid new in 2010 and we still have it. It’s got 210,000 km and hasn’t given us any trouble with batteries. Summer we get 6.7L/100km. Winter we get 6.9L/100km. Difference between summer and winter is we let it warm up in winter. No difference between town and highway.
If you were to drive the car and didn’t know it was a hybrid, you wouldn’t notice a difference.

Our next vehicle will be another hybrid.

[trigger7mm]

Thanks for the input. There’s one in Kelowna with her name on it. She just has to make the final decision.

[Remco]

I've got a 2021 Rav4 hybrid and I love it. Never had any issues starting in the winter even without a block heater. It uses the electric motor to kickstart the engine. Basically a giant oversized starter motor.
5.3 L/100km in the summer, 6.5 L/100km in the dead of winter. 75% highway.
I waited 3 months last year and got a little bit off MSRP but the wait time right now appears to be closer to a year if not more.
Happy to answer any questions you have.

[Quest206]

Go to the US and buy one. I just got back from Seattle and there doesn't seem to be any kind of shortage at the dealerships I saw. Didn't seem to matter what flavour you might be looking for, all the lots were full.

[tirebob]

Wife just recent got a new 2022 Rav4 XLE with the NA all gas motor. Even with no hybrid tech it still has been averaging 7.8l/100km... I can't justify the extra cost for the Hybrid for the tiny bit in fuel savings. I will stick to gas for this kind of vehicle.

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by Scott h

The RAV Prime would be the model to pick up if you're going that way. They have 70 kms of electric only range and then they default back to 300 HP. hybrid system. Brother in law has a Toyota hybrid and has had zero issues with it outside of amazing mileage, summer and winter.

Agreed, but the Primes are super hard to find on car lots and over a year on order. We have a 2018 Prius Prime. It's just about to roll over 100,000km and gas use is showing at 2.6l/100km. Electric range is advertised at between 45 and 50km. We find we can get a few more km than that travelling under 90km/hr and probably 10km less than advertised going highway speeds. The nice thing about the Primes over the previous generation Prius Plug-In model is the bigger battery and you can go up to 130 km/hr on electric before the gas engine kicks in if you need to go faster (previous model could only go up to 70km/hr)

My wife uses it to commute to work and back on electric only (36km). Primes only operate on electric up to -14C. Any colder than that and the gas engine overrides. With current electricity rates, it costs about $1 to charge from empty at home (used to be half that!)

I calculated the difference in cost from the regular Prius to Prius Prime (in terms of extra fuel cost at $1.30/litre) and the break even point came at around 100,000km, so now we're in bonus mode! If current fuel costs hold, the break even point will be lower.

No issues whatsoever starting in winter, and no repair costs to date. It's a great car. There's actually a small lift package you can get for them now

[75ft Arborist]

IMO Hybrids are a waste of money. The distance you get with the electric motor is enough to get you to the gas station if you run out of gas. Do some research first, and all vehicles are hard to get right now electric and hybrid has a long wait list. So if you do decide check on the wait times some are up to a year.

[lakerman]

https://ca.topclassactions.com/lawsu...;s%20operation.

Class action lawsuit with that cable,

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Wife just recent got a new 2022 Rav4 XLE with the NA all gas motor. Even with no hybrid tech it still has been averaging 7.8l/100km... I can't justify the extra cost for the Hybrid for the tiny bit in fuel savings. I will stick to gas for this kind of vehicle.

I agree. No problem getting competitive mileage on the modern ICE motors nowadays.

I was pricing out replacement battery packs for a hybrid a while back and it would have cost more to replace the batteries than the vehicle would have been worth.

Hybrid was an interim technology IMO.

[Map Maker]

Interesting.
People that have them say they love them and would buy again.
People that don’t have them , say they are a waste of money.

[fishnguy]

^ Lol.

[tirebob]

Originally Posted by Map Maker

Interesting.
People that have them say they love them and would buy again.
People that don’t have them , say they are a waste of money.

No... Not saying they are a waste of money. Just saying they are not justifiable for me for the slight fuel savings long term. Like anything, value is in the eye of the beholder.

It all comes down to what makes you happy for the amount of money you spend and then spending that money with your eyes wide open to why you are doing it. For some the value is all to do with the lowest operating costs. For others it is style. For others it is consumer confidence in a brand name. For others it is the the "perceived" feel good green aspects of using less fossil fuels in their backyard. It goes on and on.

No judgement on any of that so long as people are not inventing the reasons to support their decision.

[pikergolf]

Well worth a watch, Scotty knows cars. Compares overall costs of ownership of ICE vs hybrid vs full EV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfEwp7BUbUo

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Well worth a watch, Scotty knows cars. Compares overall costs of ownership of ICE vs hybrid vs full EV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfEwp7BUbUo

I've seen Scotty show up on my YT logarithm several times so I must like him on some level but that comparison was flawed. So much wrong but I'll start.....

1) First of all comparing a Tesla model Y to a Toyota Rav4. I'm sorry but those are not comparable vehicles to begin with. A 27kUSD with a 2.4 liter 4 banger is not comparable to a Model Y. Other than the size and number of seats is already a completely flawed comparison. Bad start Scotty.

2) He literally adds the 12k option self-driving just because. Once again Scotty quit being stupid. You can get a Model Y without FSD. To make the comparison he would of been better off comparing a base model Y to a fully loaded Rav4 which even in the states is over 40K.

3) I see nothing in there about subsidies or grants. I'm not going to get into the politics of it but I know at least in Canada there is a 5k grant and some provinces chip in even more. Those need to be accounted for and that is not mentioned and would surely affect the lifetime ownership cost

4) He is not factoring in maintenance for gas or electric. I know it isn't much with cars nowadays but brakes and engine oil at an minimum should of been included for the ICE versions. Disregard this if oil changes are now included for cars now. Been a while since I bought one.

He would of been better off comparing the Rav4's to something like a Hyundai IONIC 5. Or maybe compare ICE cars to some of electric ones. Heck even do all the Rav4's and include the Prime with a disclaimer that 80% of your driving would be within range of the all electric mode. I know there is never going to be a perfect comparison but Scotty you didn't even try.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by tirebob

Wife just recent got a new 2022 Rav4 XLE with the NA all gas motor. Even with no hybrid tech it still has been averaging 7.8l/100km... I can't justify the extra cost for the Hybrid for the tiny bit in fuel savings. I will stick to gas for this kind of vehicle.

Those are my thoughts EXACTLY.

If you are going that way, go all electric for city use only (as a second vehicle and grocery getter).

I see zero point to hybrids (unless that vehicle needs to be both city and for trips for you) in which case, as TireBob pointed out, really doesn't return on the added investment really.

[Talking moose]

Best thing I can see about a hybrid would be it could be used as a back up motor to get you home if you have engine/radiator/other internal breakdown?

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by Spidey

Agreed, but the Primes are super hard to find on car lots and over a year on order.

I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time paying $70K for a Rav4 too....

[hogie]

Two different hybrid vehicles as well. Have conventional that the vehicle decides which power unit it wants to use, or plug in hybrid. Plug in let's driver decide electric or gas, or combination of both. Smaller battery on hybrid, with plug in probably could do avarage city commute on electric only. Still have gas as backup.

Plug in makes most sense, can still pat yourself on back and say that you care about environment and actually travel with gas.

[Smokinyotes]

My nephew bought a Jeep Rubicon 4xE. It would only go 21km on a charge. What good is something like that.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

My nephew bought a Jeep Rubicon 4xE. It would only go 21km on a charge. What good is something like that.

It's good for people with a 20 km commute and boulder crawling.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

My nephew bought a Jeep Rubicon 4xE. It would only go 21km on a charge. What good is something like that.

That's ridiculous. What's the point?

[philintheblank]

My Dad has a hybrid Toyota. He loves his, he drives all over and never worried. Last time we were talking about it, he said he was getting around 4.2L/100km

To each their own,

[Spidey]

Originally Posted by Trochu

I don't know about you, but I'd have a hard time paying $70K for a Rav4 too....

Ouch! Is that what the Rav4 Primes are going for? That's a big jump from regular and hybrid. We paid $2800 more for our Prius Prime over regular Prius.

[tirebob]

Okay... Just to examine one metric being discussed, comparing fuel economy versus savings...

A 2022 Rav4 XLE AWD like I bought (not the lowest level), on Toyota Canada's website the cost is $35,265.xx and it is rated for 7.1l/100km highway and 8.8l/100km city.

The lowest level Rav4 Prime SE AWD is $46,090.xx and is rated for 5.7l/100km and 6.4l/100km, and that is if you are fortunate enough to get one for list price and not the dealership inflated price.

Obviously everyones driving varies as to how much city versus how much highway driving they do, but let's generously say you are saving a combined total of 2.0l/100 KM. Even if gas is $2.00/l that equals $40/1000 km's driven. Just roughly and quickly that means you are driving almost 300,000km just to recover the cost difference in fuel saved.

Now of course we would need to calculate total cost of ownership over 300,000km of driving including maintenance, insurance, etc etc but this number certainly give one pause to consider that any potential long term savings are not as effective as one would think and that you have to spend all that money up front hoping to get it back later...

Again, this is just considering fuel cost to overall cost.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by Spidey

Ouch! Is that what the Rav4 Primes are going for? That's a big jump from regular and hybrid. We paid $2800 more for our Prius Prime over regular Prius.

Not sure what they are going for, but alot of dealers that actually have them on the lot are asking $70k plus for them.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

My nephew bought a Jeep Rubicon 4xE. It would only go 21km on a charge. What good is something like that.

The real question is: is he happy with it?

Not bad, that's 60% of the 35km electric only range claimed by the manufacturer. The issue is its lack of electrical range efficiency when compared to other hybrid or fully electrical vehicles. The Jeep Rubicon 4xe has a 17.3kWh lithium-ion battery that is only rated for 35km, while a 75kWh Tesla AWD is rated at 614km from an 82kWh battery.
Besides the approximately 1,128 lb. weight difference (4xe is 5,200 vs. Tesla 4,087), the reduced range per kWh of battery capacity is due to the inefficiency of powering an ICE drivetrain rather than using an electric drive motor in each wheel. The parasitic friction of the ICE transmission, transfer case, driveshafts, and solid axles negates the supposed economic advantages of the Hybrid system.
If they truly wanted to build a fuel efficient hybrid, it would be similar to a locomotive powertrain; a smaller ICE to run a generator that charges the battery to power a fully electric drive system.

Motrotrend review of the 4xe: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...the-year-2022/

Driving.ca video explaining the drivetrain operation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3vTPnXXOKg