Assisting in a Hunt without a Tag

HunterDave · #1 10-16-2018, 10:41 AM

This has been hashed out before and I have searched the forum and found numerous threads about pushing the bush for someone but no actual examples of someone ever having been charged for participating in a hunt without a tag for the targeted species.

It appears that many hunters on here interpret the Alberta Wildlife Act the same way as I do and that it is illegal to assist in a hunt without being licensed for the targeted species.

The Wildlife Act seems pretty clear to me that pushing the bush for someone is participating in a hunt:

(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to
a subject animal,
(i) shoot at, harass or worry,
(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search
for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in
subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person
is so hunting;

(2) A person shall not be regarded as having hunted a subject
animal
(a) for the purposes of subsection (1)(o)(ii), if
(i) the person was not carrying a weapon, and
(ii) the purpose of the person’s activity was restricted to
watching, photographing, drawing or painting a
picture of the animal,

A fella posted screenshots on another forum of a reply that he received from "Alberta Fish and Wildlife Enforcement" that looks legit to me and his answer informed him that pushing the bush without a license is legal. In a nutshell it stated that technically, a person pushing the bush is "guiding" the hunter and if the person guiding is not receiving compensation it is not illegal to assist (guide) the hunter, and the person guiding the hunter does not need a hunting license or a guide designation. Also, "If the person assisting the hunter by pushing game is not licensed to hunt the game animals that are being hunted, they are legal to assist so long as they (the pusher) are not (themselves) injuring or killing the animal."

If this is accurate this is a game changer for myself and many people that I know.

Does anyone know of any cases of someone getting charged with assisting in a hunt without a license? I'm looking for facts and not really interested in anyone's interpretation of the law unless you are an Alberta Fish & Wildlife Enforcement Officer. Thank you.

dmcbride · #2 10-16-2018, 10:43 AM

Nothing wrong with pushing bush for bunnies or coyotes.

Talking moose · #3 10-16-2018, 10:43 AM

We may have to call in walking buffalo for this one....

HunterDave · #4 10-16-2018, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Nothing wrong with pushing bush for bunnies or coyotes.

Yes, I know that there are ways around it but I'd like to know what the actual law is.

There must be a site somewhere that lists the different types of wildlife offences and how many hunters were charged with them.

FinnDawg · #5 10-16-2018, 11:17 AM

Seems a bit silly if it is illegal.

freeride · #6 10-16-2018, 11:25 AM

I had a question regarding someone coming with me on a hunt. I sent an email and explained what would be happening and if it was legal. Had a fast response and could print off the email from a legal source to bring with me, vs what someone else thought.

Specific questions about the Alberta Hunting Regulations
may be addressed to*Alberta Environment and Parks - Information Centre

freeride · #7 10-16-2018, 11:27 AM

Sorry here is the email

AEP.Info-Centre@gov.ab.ca

Red Bullets · #8 10-16-2018, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeride

Sorry here is the email

AEP.Info-Centre@gov.ab.ca

oops.

Lefty-Canuck · #9 10-16-2018, 11:36 AM

What if you go archery antelope hunting with a buddy and he holds the decoy?

LC

Talking moose · #10 10-16-2018, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

What if you go archery antelope hunting with a buddy and he holds the decoy?

LC

Don’t know nothing about antelope hunting but I hope all decoys that you hold are does......

Sledhead71 · #11 10-16-2018, 11:48 AM

The wildlife act is very clear. How anyone interprets it, including CO's is mute when your convicted by a judge. The judge has no skin in the game and will follow the regulations / act where it clearly states what you have asked and the intent.

happy honker · #12 10-16-2018, 12:11 PM

I never thought of this before, but what if your partner has tagged out, and he's still on the trip with you. Can he help you with anything, glassing? Recovery?

Dave P · #13 10-16-2018, 12:59 PM

I had a question about using my dog to hunt birds, and if I needed a license if I wasn’t shooting (Friends with licenses shooting) I have one anyways, but was more just curious. I emailed AEP and got the following:

Good Morning Dave,

You are able to accompany the hunters with your dog without possession of an Upland Game Bird license, as long as you will not be in possession of a firearm at any time.

Regards,

Amber Vander Meulen
Licensing Assistant
Alberta Environment & Parks
Licensing & Resource Data
AEP.FWDLicensing@gov.ab.ca

I don’t know if that helps with this thread, but I am guessing you are free to help hunt if you don’t have a firearm in your possession.

Dave

Roderek · #14 10-16-2018, 02:09 PM

My understanding is if you have a wildlife certificate you are able to assist, you don't need an actual tag to assist.

hermn8r · #15 10-16-2018, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roderek

My understanding is if you have a wildlife certificate you are able to assist, you don't need an actual tag to assist.

I know this is based on Alberta, and here in Manitoba it's the same, but there are some pretty stiff CO's here that would still try and nail you. Just my personal experience anyways

501s · #16 10-16-2018, 04:12 PM

People take their kids everyday. The kids don’t have a license. I think it makes sense. As long as the person is not doing the killing, they can help out.

obsessed1 · #17 10-16-2018, 05:17 PM

The rules are the rules..seems pretty simple if you don't have a tag you can't participate in the hunt. I don't like or agree with it...look at this scenario...hunting partners both hunting bull Elk in bow season. One guy call for the other, once one of them shoots a bull he can no longer call for his buddy. Absolutely stupid but those are the rules...One of the reasons I prefer to just hunt on my own

sweld · #18 10-16-2018, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

The rules are the rules..seems pretty simple if you don't have a tag you can't participate in the hunt. I don't like or agree with it...look at this scenario...hunting partners both hunting bull Elk in bow season. One guy call for the other, once one of them shoots a bull he can no longer call for his buddy. Absolutely stupid but those are the rules...One of the reasons I prefer to just hunt on my own

So if my buddy is driving me around moose hunting it’s illegal if he doesn’t have a tag as well.

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Akoch · #19 10-16-2018, 05:29 PM

So a father that tags out in archery season cannot take his kid out in November as he will be ‘in search’ of wildlife for his kid. If you take the viewpoint that someone that does not intend to shoot is hunting then everything from pre-season scouting to helping a friend follow a blood trail is illegal.

obsessed1 · #20 10-16-2018, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweld

So if my buddy is driving me around moose hunting it’s illegal if he doesn’t have a tag as well.

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Driving someone around while they look for moose is very different than hiking into the back woods and calling for said moose..just saying. The laws are very clear regardless of what I think of them

sweld · #21 10-16-2018, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Driving someone around while they look for moose is very different than hiking into the back woods and calling for said moose..just saying. The laws are very clear regardless of what I think of them

Meh, he’s still participating in my hunt.

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obsessed1 · #22 10-16-2018, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoch

So a father that tags out in archery season cannot take his kid out in November as he will be ‘in search’ of wildlife for his kid. If you take the viewpoint that someone that does not intend to shoot is hunting then everything from pre-season scouting to helping a friend follow a blood trail is illegal.

Pushing bush,calling, flushing are all considered hunting. The law states it's illegal to hunt without a tag. Like I said I don't like it or agree with it but that's the law that's written. Hunting without a tag is poaching according to our laws. Should it be? Heck no.

Pre season scouting is not hunting as you don't have a firearm and there is no way any court could convict you of hunting without a weapon. In season with a Elk bugle around your neck and a pocket full of diaphragm calls and you hoochie momma in your hand with no Elk tag in your pocket is pretty clear you are participating in a hunt

obsessed1 · #23 10-16-2018, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweld

Meh, he’s still participating in my hunt.

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Sure by the letter of the law but there's no way they could ever get a conviction in that scenario. You caught in the alders with a call in your hand without a tag and you will probably get charged

HunterDave · #24 10-16-2018, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Pushing bush,calling, flushing are all considered hunting. The law states it's illegal to hunt without a tag. Like I said I don't like it or agree with it but that's the law that's written. Hunting without a tag is poaching according to our laws. Should it be? Heck no.

Pre season scouting is not hunting as you don't have a firearm and there is no way any court could convict you of hunting without a weapon. In season with a Elk bugle around your neck and a pocket full of diaphragm calls and you hoochie momma in your hand with no Elk tag in your pocket is pretty clear you are participating in a hunt

Did you read what AB F&W Enforcement stated in my original post?

dustinjoels · #25 10-16-2018, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akoch

So a father that tags out in archery season cannot take his kid out in November as he will be ‘in search’ of wildlife for his kid. If you take the viewpoint that someone that does not intend to shoot is hunting then everything from pre-season scouting to helping a friend follow a blood trail is illegal.

Or a parent taking there child under the legal hunting age out with them. Sorry little Johnny, you can’t look through the binos, that’s searching for game.

obsessed1 · #26 10-16-2018, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Did you read what AB F&W Enforcement stated in my original post?

I did read that. Unfortunately the law written is what is stated right above what you posted a f&w officer wrote about it..all it takes is for an officer to go by the written law and you can be charged. This year in fact I was drawn late season cow Elk. A buddy wondered if I would help him hunt his bull in bow season. I called f&w and was told nope...didn't record it or get it in writing but the answer was nope I could not call for another hunter without a tag. From this I surmised if I tagged out im done hunting ( as written in the regs ) that species. Possible that different COs might see this different but the law written is clear. So you would be tossing a coin. I'd want original copy signed and dated from a C/O in my pocket stating that it's legal before I'd temp fate again myself. In the past I did call for others after I filled my tag and didn't think anything of it. Until I made that call this season

dustinjoels · #27 10-16-2018, 07:03 PM

They allow non hunters to tag along on the wainwright and suffield hunts so this whole discussion is a moot point.

35 whelen · #28 10-16-2018, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustinjoels

They allow non hunters to tag along on the wainwright and suffield hunts so this whole discussion is a moot point.

Those are Hunts on federal military bases though I suspect different rules

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obsessed1 · #29 10-16-2018, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustinjoels

They allow non hunters to tag along on the wainwright and suffield hunts so this whole discussion is a moot point.

Tagging along is not a problem. Assisting in the hunt is what we are talking about. It's always been legal to accompany a hunter to carry gear,run back up bear protection( with appropriate tags) wrangle the pack horses...ECT.. But from my conversation with F&W this fall I am under the impression that to participate in the hunt you need a valid tag. As I said different COs might give different answers as to wether or not you can or will be charged.

dustinjoels · #30 10-16-2018, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

Tagging along is not a problem. Assisting in the hunt is what we are talking about. It's always been legal to accompany a hunter to carry gear,run back up bear protection( with appropriate tags) wrangle the pack horses...ECT.. But from my conversation with F&W this fall I am under the impression that to participate in the hunt you need a valid tag. As I said different COs might give different answers as to wether or not you can or will be charged.

Search for is one of the things listed on the no no list.

All Alberta based hunting show hosts would have been charged if this law was taken literally and enforced. With video evidence they made themselves and aired on tv.

I’ll bring my 6 year old in the goose blind and give him snacks and his own call and the day a C.O and a judge tell me I can’t, I guess it’ll be time to move to Texas.