WMU With Highest Wolf Density

[shooter12]

We hunted couple of days last year in 318 and saw a lot of wolf footprints , probably more then we saw alive deers.
Their population is getting out of control I guess.

S12

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

What do you need a "real count" for, other than to say what we already know, that there are lots of wolves?

If there are caribou in the WMU, Bios are already working at control of wolves to stop the decline of the caribou.

The use of poison bait sites has been used around Grande Cache to try and save the remaining herd there. Arial shooting has been applied for a number of years in 542 / 516 to try and increase those caribou herds. The poison bait sites had some PR blowback, but was working very well at removing whole packs of wolves.

The Province does have motivation to do something about the wolf problem. If the woodland caribou is declared as a threatened species in Alberta, the Feds will take jurisdiction and stop all commercial use of the caribou zone. That means forestry, oil and gas.

So lets encourage the poison bait sites as it is the most effective means to deal with the excess wolf problem. It does mean that there will be some co morbidity, but at least we have the chance to save the caribou.

Drewski

Most of what you say is correct so far as I know, but not your suggestion they continue to use poison.

The problem is they have no idea how to use poison effectively. Yes they kill a lot of critters, but few wolves.
Have a look at the reports they have for their bait use.

Here is one such report from Alberta Environment & Parks covering a five year span from 2012 to 2017.

It records a total of 65 wolves killed by strychnine and over 100 non target species poisoned including one Golden Eagle, one Bald Eagle, one Grizzly Bear and one Fisher, plus numerous Coyote and Fox.


https://d74bdffd-608e-41bb-b1bd-7dfd...5fb922df6a.pdf

There is no way of knowing how many animals were poisoned but not found.
I do know it is a significant factor with the method of poisoning they use.

No I am not a wolf fanatic or anything of that nature, I am simply a guy who learned about strychnine from someone who used strychnine extensively.
That individual was my dad.

He learned to use it for tapping when it was legal to do so. Eventually he was hired by the Alberta government to spread poison baits to stop the Rabies epidemic in the early 1950s.

[Brbpuppy]

Almost every hunting trip I've done to 349 has yielded wolf spotting's.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Here is one such report from Alberta Environment & Parks covering a five year span from 2012 to 2017.

It records a total of 65 wolves killed by strychnine and over 100 non target species poisoned including one Golden Eagle, one Bald Eagle, one Grizzly Bear and one Fisher, plus numerous Coyote and Fox.


https://d74bdffd-608e-41bb-b1bd-7dfd...5fb922df6a.pdf

There is no way of knowing how many animals were poisoned but not found.
I do know it is a significant factor with the method of poisoning they use.

Thanks for posting the pdf.

If they are trying to reduce predation on game, the reduction in coyotes, ravens and other species besides wolves is not a bad thing. A big bunch of ravens will clean up a good chunk of anything the wolves leave over once they're full. This just reduces the time between wolf kills, increases predation. Grizzly bears, well we could use a lot fewer of them, heavy killers of calves, fawns in the spring. A reduction of anything that eats meat reduces predation. Cats need a big cull, the whole notion of reducing the killing of female cougars via the quota is wrong. If anything we should encourage female harvest it where game numbers are low/falling which seems to be almost everywhere.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by bdub

Thanks for posting the pdf.

If they are trying to reduce predation on game, the reduction in coyotes, ravens and other species besides wolves is not a bad thing. A big bunch of ravens will clean up a good chunk of anything the wolves leave over once they're full. This just reduces the time between wolf kills, increases predation. Grizzly bears, well we could use a lot fewer of them, heavy killers of calves, fawns in the spring. A reduction of anything that eats meat reduces predation. Cats need a big cull, the whole notion of reducing the killing of female cougars via the quota is wrong. If anything we should encourage female harvest it where game numbers are low/falling which seems to be almost everywhere.

Ravens are hard on fawns and ewes also
They poke their eyes out

[wildalberta]

my time spent chasing cats in the winter west of rocky has really put the wolf numbers into perspective. wish i still lived closer and i would target them far more often. I am now living around bonnyville and while there are wolves around, the numbers are pretty low in my opinion. i work on the clawr and just south of it along the wolf lake grazing reserve, and see very few tracks anymore. I went almost 3 years without even a sighting and the only times ive caught them anymore are feasting on roadkill off hwy 41.

[Drewski Canuck]

Yes it was the bad PR of Co Morbidity that the bait sites at Grande Cache ran into.

It also was noted that the whole pack was removed. Shooting can result in the remaining wolves forming into two or more packs when the Alpha male and female are removed, resulting in more pups born the next spring from the multiple packs.

Poisoning using canine specific poisons like a product called 1080, is much more selective. Given the limited budgets to work with, if you want to save the Caribou, and deer and moose and elk, then there is no other choice.

Drewski

[303 Epps]

Originally Posted by Brbpuppy

Almost every hunting trip I've done to 349 has yielded wolf spotting's.

x 2. Either tracks or a fleeting glimpse.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by shooter12

We hunted couple of days last year in 318 and saw a lot of wolf footprints , probably more then we saw alive deers.
Their population is getting out of control I guess.

S12

I like 318. They move lot, but they like it there.

Grizz

[Brbpuppy]

Originally Posted by 303 Epps

x 2. Either tracks or a fleeting glimpse.

Yeah when I spot them, I never actually have a chance to shoot lol.

[Big Grey Wolf]

You do not need complicated expensive aerial surveys to determine ungulate/wolf/cougar populations in a WMU. A trapper or experienced hunter with a good Sled can read a lot of tracks and determine game populations with high reliability.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Yes it was the bad PR of Co Morbidity that the bait sites at Grande Cache ran into.

It also was noted that the whole pack was removed. Shooting can result in the remaining wolves forming into two or more packs when the Alpha male and female are removed, resulting in more pups born the next spring from the multiple packs.

Poisoning using canine specific poisons like a product called 1080, is much more selective. Given the limited budgets to work with, if you want to save the Caribou, and deer and moose and elk, then there is no other choice.

Drewski

It's nice to think its canine specific but that's just a crock, having first hand experience and knowing other trappers where nothing is left alive on their trap line including even whisky jacks lol It's actually very strange and eerie when you can have a huge bait station and not even have so much as a raven show up for months. They call it scorched earth and have a good reason to call it that. They kill everything from weasels/marten to wolverines to yes cougars and grizzlies. Worst part is they lie about the numbers and they are not responsible with check times at all... maybe pretending to save the caribou but they sure as hell are not saving deer/elk or moose in fact they are trying and are successfully killing them off too. (the theory is if there are no moose or elk left alive the wolves will leave or not populate as much due to no food source) They also operate(aerial gunning) in many zones to keep the numbers of dead wolves or the program would look worse and those choppers cover some ground in a day.... Now don't get me wrong I'm a hunter and trapper and I know what predators are capable of but they ignore predators and all other conservation except the big bad wolf in the name of caribou.. its a joke that has gone on for over 12 years here

Also they don't typically poison the Alphas, they leave the shot moose in the center and then make bait mounds with the poison around the outsides, the alphas eat on the big carcass and the subordinates eat the surrounding poison piles. They are good at killing them and everything else that I can't argue. Their budget is far from limited though and the amount they spend on this program would make most peoples head spin.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

You do not need complicated expensive aerial surveys to determine ungulate/wolf/cougar populations in a WMU. A trapper or experienced hunter with a good Sled can read a lot of tracks and determine game populations with high reliability.

Buddy about wiped out the Banff, Bow Valley pack , 60 miles from Banff. Wolves cover a huge area, they were radio collaring them at one point to get a population estimate and territory size. Think one Canadian one turned up in Montana.

Grizz

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainMusic

It's nice to think its canine specific but that's just a crock, having first hand experience and knowing other trappers where nothing is left alive on their trap line including even whisky jacks lol It's actually very strange and eerie when you can have a huge bait station and not even have so much as a raven show up for months. They call it scorched earth and have a good reason to call it that. They kill everything from weasels/marten to wolverines to yes cougars and grizzlies. Worst part is they lie about the numbers and they are not responsible with check times at all... maybe pretending to save the caribou but they sure as hell are not saving deer/elk or moose in fact they are trying and are successfully killing them off too. (the theory is if there are no moose or elk left alive the wolves will leave or not populate as much due to no food source) They also operate(aerial gunning) in many zones to keep the numbers of dead wolves or the program would look worse and those choppers cover some ground in a day.... Now don't get me wrong I'm a hunter and trapper and I know what predators are capable of but they ignore predators and all other conservation except the big bad wolf in the name of caribou.. its a joke that has gone on for over 12 years here

Also they don't typically poison the Alphas, they leave the shot moose in the center and then make bait mounds with the poison around the outsides, the alphas eat on the big carcass and the subordinates eat the surrounding poison piles. They are good at killing them and everything else that I can't argue. Their budget is far from limited though and the amount they spend on this program would make most peoples head spin.

Trappers complain. But they don’t catch any wolves. So can they complain?

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Trappers complain. But they don’t catch any wolves. So can they complain?

Kinda hard to catch something not there lmfao but the Trappers I refer to did and do catch wolves(if they ever get one alive coming through these days,)lol Not sure what trappers you know but shouldn't paint all with the same brush. You must know those ones that use them for vacation places. The AB gov also then ignores the cougars/grizz/blacks and any other predator etc... I don't know and this is why I usually don't bother even replying these days, people have the blinders on and its easy to point the finger.. just like the grizz is BC the gov knows better etc.... Its ok I'm not here to argue with folks just stating what my experience is with the program.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Good to hear the heli gunning and poison programs were effective in your area.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I remember when you could get undersubscribed bull moose tags in 511
Not anymore

Same in 516. They used to have over 200 tags not even taken when I first hunted that zone. Now if there are a few undersubscribed tags, they are gone quick.


I watched the wolf population get big in that zone, tracks everywhere, could get 3 big packs howling at night. Then with some deep snow winters and the wolves, the critter numbers crashed fast. Seem to be bouncing back a bit which is good.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Good to hear the heli gunning and poison programs were effective in your area.

You bet, effective killing almost everything just like I said, if that makes you happy you're a special kind of stupid but hey hopefully they get your area next mine could use a break.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainMusic

You bet, effective killing almost everything just like I said, if that makes you happy you're a special kind of stupid but hey hopefully they get your area next mine could use a break.

When the big picture doesn’t correlate with your personal trapping expectations you call guys stupid.

[Drewski Canuck]

Rockymouontainmusic,

Lets look at your scenario to conclusion. The Caribou become threatened and the Feds use the Endangered Species Legislation to walk in and manage the forests exclusively for the Caribou. No more access for forestry, oil and gas, mining, recreation, etc.

You are not going to tell me that you make off your trap line more than all the businesses that operate in our Caribou habitat?

But you would rather all other businesses and the Caribou suffer and move towards Caribou extinction in Alberta, so that your trap line has whiskey jacks and weasels?

Really?

As offended as you may be about poisoning and areal shooting, this is a tipping point for the Caribou.

The herd at Amadeau Lake is not growing in numbers. The herd at Nipisi is not growing in numbers. The herd at Grande Cache is not growing in numbers. Predation is the biggest obstacle.

At a certain point, the genetic diversity is lost for a herd because the herd is simply too small. Then no recovery effort will take place, and there will be no Caribou in Alberta.

If you only want to think of your trapping business, that is fine and you can have your voice and be heard. But do not criticize people as stupid when they voice their interests and opinion.

Drewski

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by bdub

Thanks for posting the pdf.

If they are trying to reduce predation on game, the reduction in coyotes, ravens and other species besides wolves is not a bad thing. A big bunch of ravens will clean up a good chunk of anything the wolves leave over once they're full. This just reduces the time between wolf kills, increases predation. Grizzly bears, well we could use a lot fewer of them, heavy killers of calves, fawns in the spring. A reduction of anything that eats meat reduces predation. Cats need a big cull, the whole notion of reducing the killing of female cougars via the quota is wrong. If anything we should encourage female harvest it where game numbers are low/falling which seems to be almost everywhere.

there is much more to it then just the numbers recorded.

Something many would no know. For every animal poisoned with strychnine there are many more that die from eating on the carcass of the poisoned animal.
Up to four levels worth.

That is, the first animal in the chain eats from a poisoned bait, if it does not eat enough to cause immediate death it goes away and dies somewhere else and is not found.
Anything that eats part of that second animal is also likely to die, and the ones that eat a belly full of that second animal also will die.
The animals that eat off that third animal may die or may just get terribly sick, sick enough to die from exposure to the weather.

The bottom line is that for every animal known to have been poisoned there can be dozens of others that are poisoned as well.

Or to put it another way, the 164 dead animals in that report could represent as many as 3,652,264 poisoned animals.

Although numbers that high could only be achieved if every animal that eat part of the poisoned animal to become poisoned themselves and that is unlikely.
But numbers of a few thousand are very possible.

So it's a lot more then several Fox and Coyotes and one or even a few Eagles and Grizzly bears. It could well be hundreds of such creatures.

That in itself is not my only objection to poisoning with strychnine.

I am also convinced that a bounty system would be far more effective and far less costly.

How many guys would hunt wolves at every opportunity if there were a fifty dollar bounty on their heads, and how many wolves would they kill.
I bet it would be hundreds of guys and a few thousand less wolves as a result.
Not 65 wolves that cost thousands of dollars to kill.

[Drewski Canuck]

Keg,

Fifty bucks on the chance of killing a wolf is not even going to pay the gas to get NEAR where the wolves live, let alone the equipment it takes to actually shoot at a wolf.

That Fifty bucks of course only gets paid after you spend more gas and time taking the wolf to the location where you turn in the wolf to collect the bounty.

In the mean time, there is a predation problem for all the ungulates and especially the Caribou.

SO it appears that we have to get control of the wolf problem ASAP and in as direct a method as possible.

When the Yellowstone Wolf relocation occurred, 75 wolves from Grande Cache were relocated. Those wolves have exploded in numbers and have spread to Idaho, Colorado, Montana, etc. That is how effective wolves are at reproducing and expanding in range.

Drewski

[Smoky buck]

No offense Keg but at 50$ a wolf most would give up after one day. Most hunters are honestly not going to be effective wolf hunters. Truthfully I live close to wolf country and make the odd half hearted attempt and 50$ would not change my efforts

Now set a mandatory quota on wolves for traplines combined with a 50$ bounty I could see more effective. The fact of the matter is trapping is a far more effective tool. This would also benefit trappers who already target wolves. It might also make those who own traplines as recreational property actually contribute something. Of course quota would need to be realistic

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Keg,

Fifty bucks on the chance of killing a wolf is not even going to pay the gas to get NEAR where the wolves live, let alone the equipment it takes to actually shoot at a wolf.

That Fifty bucks of course only gets paid after you spend more gas and time taking the wolf to the location where you turn in the wolf to collect the bounty.

In the mean time, there is a predation problem for all the ungulates and especially the Caribou.

SO it appears that we have to get control of the wolf problem ASAP and in as direct a method as possible.

When the Yellowstone Wolf relocation occurred, 75 wolves from Grande Cache were relocated. Those wolves have exploded in numbers and have spread to Idaho, Colorado, Montana, etc. That is how effective wolves are at reproducing and expanding in range.

Drewski

I don't doubt it wouldn't be profitable for you, but there are people who could make a darn good living killing wolves. In fact I know two who do even without a bounty.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

No offense Keg but at 50$ a wolf most would give up after one day. Most hunters are honestly not going to be effective wolf hunters. Truthfully I live close to wolf country and make the odd half hearted attempt and 50$ would not change my efforts

Now set a mandatory quota on wolves for traplines combined with a 50$ bounty I could see more effective. The fact of the matter is trapping is a far more effective tool. This would also benefit trappers who already target wolves. It might also make those who own traplines as recreational property actually contribute something. Of course quota would need to be realistic

You wouldn't need a quota for trappers,, those who know how to trap wolves would give them more attention just because of the bounty.

A agree, most hunters would not at present be effective wolf hunters and many will never be.
Like any species, wolves require some understanding of their habits and habitat to be successfully hunted on any sort of regular basis.

But anything can be learned.

We also can't forget that a good many hunters target Coyote, crows, and gophers that have no bounty on them.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Actually what I said is if you like everything wiped off the ground in the name of some caribou and you are happy about it then I believe it or said persons to be stupid. It’s not about trapping and yes I do trap although I don’t own a line, I don’t earn a living from trapping. If the wolf killing is saving the caribou why has the herd not increased? Let me guess the breeding pens haven’t been installed to save them yet that’s why right? Lol I can tell you industry has had major impact on the caribou as well and although I don’t oppose industry I also think it should be regulated.. you guys are also jumping to conclusions in thinking I’m against killing wolves to protect animals when in fact it couldn’t be the furthest thing from the truth. I have no use for the poison from what I’ve seen, and if you don’t want to listen to Keg who has great knowledge with it look into or talk to anyone who was involved with it in the 50’s I’ve heard from a few and it’s terrible. I also know F&W officers that are trained with it and use it.I’m not against heli shooting, it’s a little pricey but if that’s a must so be it. But then on the very same hand grizzlies are more than thriving here and it’s also a known fact black bears predates on calves in the spring and yet they are not out there supporting a grizzly hunt are they. Also I hated seeing them try to decimate the moose in 353 for over a decade and shooting health elk and moose out of the chopper is ridiculous. If you shoot an bull elk that is one inch short on an antler point to feed your family the same gov is throwing the book at you and on the other hand decimating a herd so wolves have less of a food source. $50 a wolf sheesh they are spending about 5k an hour with the heli/poison units now. People are entitled to their opinion but if wiping out entire ecosystems is a good thing to “save” one species I can’t help but disagree

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You wouldn't need a quota for trappers,, those who know how to trap wolves would give them more attention just because of the bounty.

A agree, most hunters would not at present be effective wolf hunters and many will never be.
Like any species, wolves require some understanding of their habits and habitat to be successfully hunted on any sort of regular basis.

But anything can be learned.

We also can't forget that a good many hunters target Coyote, crows, and gophers that have no bounty on them.

Only reason I suggest applying a quota is if Alberta trappers are like most of the BC trappers who have lines only a small portion target wolves. Most Trappers I know who have lines focus on Marten, fisher, lynx, bobcats and other bread and butter species.

Good wolf trappers would benefit from the bounty but a quota would would make others step up as well

Agree anything can be learned but bet most hunters lack motivation. I could be wrong but I seen clubs put out bounties when I lived in BC and it had very little impact. I remember bounties going as high as 350$ and that didn’t have much impact on wolf hunter numbers

[trigger7mm]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainMusic

Actually what I said is if you like everything wiped off the ground in the name of some caribou and you are happy about it then I believe it or said persons to be stupid. It’s not about trapping and yes I do trap although I don’t own a line, I don’t earn a living from trapping. If the wolf killing is saving the caribou why has the herd not increased? Let me guess the breeding pens haven’t been installed to save them yet that’s why right? Lol I can tell you industry has had major impact on the caribou as well and although I don’t oppose industry I also think it should be regulated.. you guys are also jumping to conclusions in thinking I’m against killing wolves to protect animals when in fact it couldn’t be the furthest thing from the truth. I have no use for the poison from what I’ve seen, and if you don’t want to listen to Keg who has great knowledge with it look into or talk to anyone who was involved with it in the 50’s I’ve heard from a few and it’s terrible. I also know F&W officers that are trained with it and use it.I’m not against heli shooting, it’s a little pricey but if that’s a must so be it. But then on the very same hand grizzlies are more than thriving here and it’s also a known fact black bears predates on calves in the spring and yet they are not out there supporting a grizzly hunt are they. Also I hated seeing them try to decimate the moose in 353 for over a decade and shooting health elk and moose out of the chopper is ridiculous. If you shoot an bull elk that is one inch short on an antler point to feed your family the same gov is throwing the book at you and on the other hand decimating a herd so wolves have less of a food source. $50 a wolf sheesh they are spending about 5k an hour with the heli/poison units now. People are entitled to their opinion but if wiping out entire ecosystems is a good thing to “save” one species I can’t help but disagree

Bingo! Hit the nail right on the head!

[Big Grey Wolf]

The wolf bounty in BC in the 40's was ~$160. That would equate to over $1600 today. Now that would pay for more expenses than just fuel for your sled.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

The wolf bounty in BC in the 40's was ~$160. That would equate to over $1600 today. Now that would pay for more expenses than just fuel for your sled.

Compared to all the other bs wasted money this would be a good idea
If you made it an even $1000 and with these covid restrictions
$5-6m would set those wolf numbers back a lot
It would give our ungulates a chance to recover