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  #61  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:44 PM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
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Full length sizing your brass too much creating excessive head space in the chamber by setting the shoulder back too far?
Should still be capable of way more than 2 or 3 reloding.
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  #62  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:24 PM
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obsessed:

This is where my inexperience shows. I had thought that 0.007” of headspace when measuring to new never fired brass would not constitute excess headspace. If it does, then perhaps my problem is a combination of excess headspace in the chamber and pushing the shoulder too far on FL resizing?



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You should be able to full length resize your brass more than once or twice, even at loads pushing max pressure in a rifle with acceptable headspace. What you are seeing in your brass is not normal. You can play around with forming brass as in the dasher example above and get around the problem but its a big pain and not worth it imo.
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  #63  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:05 AM
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A 30-06 Go Gauge measures 2.049 a no go 2.055 and the Field Gauge 2.058. No Go is the preferred head space but is not a SAAMI set measurement and varies by gauge maker. Field Gauge is SAAMI max so .009 head space is the max SAAMI spec, with less than .006 being the preferred head space.

Assuming your measurements are accurate your head space on new brass is .007, have you measured the brass accurately to tell if he brass you are using is SAAMI max, min or in between because you need to know that if you are trying to use brass instead of the proper gauges. Otherwise you really don't know what your real head space is, just what it is for that brass but as long as you keep use that brass it will suffice.

By the way you can order o set of gauges for about $60 and know for sure what your head space is. A .007 head space to the new Norma Brass you are using is generous but does not need to be fixed. What you do need to fix is how you are setting your FL sizing die. Like I said before, you a WAY over sizing your brass and that is why it is separating in two or three firings.

The one thing that makes me suspicious that you may have excessive head space is your comment that the once fired and not resized Norma case has a stretch line in it. As long as it is just a visible stretch mark you are okay, this happens on lots of brass. If you can feel a groove or the beginning of separation on the inside of the case after one firing with factory new brass then you likely have a head space issue.

As much a I understand wanting to learn, trying to do this by typing instructions on a forum is a really hard way to figure things out. This is a fairly complicated issue with a lot of variables that you have not effectively isolated so as much as we are trying to help, a lot of this is shooting in the dark to a large extent. Best of luck.
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  #64  
Old 02-08-2020, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
A 30-06 Go Gauge measures 2.049 a no go 2.055 and the Field Gauge 2.058. No Go is the preferred head space but is not a SAAMI set measurement and varies by gauge maker. Field Gauge is SAAMI max so .009 head space is the max SAAMI spec, with less than .006 being the preferred head space.

Assuming your measurements are accurate your head space on new brass is .007, have you measured the brass accurately to tell if he brass you are using is SAAMI max, min or in between because you need to know that if you are trying to use brass instead of the proper gauges. Otherwise you really don't know what your real head space is, just what it is for that brass but as long as you keep use that brass it will suffice.

By the way you can order o set of gauges for about $60 and know for sure what your head space is. A .007 head space to the new Norma Brass you are using is generous but does not need to be fixed. What you do need to fix is how you are setting your FL sizing die. Like I said before, you a WAY over sizing your brass and that is why it is separating in two or three firings.

The one thing that makes me suspicious that you may have excessive head space is your comment that the once fired and not resized Norma case has a stretch line in it. As long as it is just a visible stretch mark you are okay, this happens on lots of brass. If you can feel a groove or the beginning of separation on the inside of the case after one firing with factory new brass then you likely have a head space issue.

As much a I understand wanting to learn, trying to do this by typing instructions on a forum is a really hard way to figure things out. This is a fairly complicated issue with a lot of variables that you have not effectively isolated so as much as we are trying to help, a lot of this is shooting in the dark to a large extent. Best of luck.
Good info here.
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  #65  
Old 02-08-2020, 07:28 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Take a piece of once fired brass and section it lengthways. The beginning of case head separation will be readily apparent. If it is, get it fixed. If it isn’t, you are the problem, and you need to adjust what you are doing.
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  #66  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
A 30-06 Go Gauge measures 2.049 a no go 2.055 and the Field Gauge 2.058. No Go is the preferred head space but is not a SAAMI set measurement and varies by gauge maker. Field Gauge is SAAMI max so .009 head space is the max SAAMI spec, with less than .006 being the preferred head space.

Assuming your measurements are accurate your head space on new brass is .007, have you measured the brass accurately to tell if he brass you are using is SAAMI max, min or in between because you need to know that if you are trying to use brass instead of the proper gauges. Otherwise you really don't know what your real head space is, just what it is for that brass but as long as you keep use that brass it will suffice.

By the way you can order o set of gauges for about $60 and know for sure what your head space is. A .007 head space to the new Norma Brass you are using is generous but does not need to be fixed. What you do need to fix is how you are setting your FL sizing die. Like I said before, you a WAY over sizing your brass and that is why it is separating in two or three firings.

The one thing that makes me suspicious that you may have excessive head space is your comment that the once fired and not resized Norma case has a stretch line in it. As long as it is just a visible stretch mark you are okay, this happens on lots of brass. If you can feel a groove or the beginning of separation on the inside of the case after one firing with factory new brass then you likely have a head space issue.

As much a I understand wanting to learn, trying to do this by typing instructions on a forum is a really hard way to figure things out. This is a fairly complicated issue with a lot of variables that you have not effectively isolated so as much as we are trying to help, a lot of this is shooting in the dark to a large extent. Best of luck.
Dean, see bolded above. I will check today with the paper clip method or else section the once fired brass with the stretch marks to check it for thinning from the inside.

My next step is to locate a piece of 9mm brass to measure the shoulder position, or else order a no-go gauge.

Edit: I just spent some quality time with a bent paper clip. I first checked the blown out and partially separated Lapua brass to get the feel for the thin section. I then tried on the once fired Norma (not yet resized) and could feel no discernible thinning or circumferential groove on the inside of it. Maybe Dean is right and the external stretch mark on the once fired Norma is not a sign of separation to come.

Another thing I will do is FL resize* some of this once fired Norma and load it up to moderate loads, then shoot it and see what happens.

* FL resize with the die backed out, rather than screwed in further as I have been doing in the past. Once sized (but not yet loaded), I will compare it to my data set using the tape method in chambering. I will aim to have one tape thickness while allowing the bolt to close (indicating approx. 0.0035") and then load and fire. I will then see what happens to the case.

Thx.

Last edited by dave99; 02-08-2020 at 08:51 AM.
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  #67  
Old 02-08-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dave99 View Post
Dean, see bolded above. I will check today with the paper clip method or else section the once fired brass with the stretch marks to check it for thinning from the inside.

My next step is to locate a piece of 9mm brass to measure the shoulder position, or else order a no-go gauge.

Thx.
If Lapua and Norma brass both show the beginnings of case head separation after one firing and no resizing, then you don't need to measure anything more. The gun needs to be fixed before you have a major failure. If there is evidence of separation on Norma and not Lapua, use Lapua, it may be made to a larger spec from the get go and isn't stretching as much. From your other pictures it seems as though the Lapua brass is not showing the stretch mark after one firing.

Excess head space can be caused by the chamber, the lugs in the barrel being cut wrong or worn, or by the bolt itself not being fitted properly, or a combination of all these factors. If it is a head space issue take it to a smith to be repaired properly because you need to know what thing or combination of things is causing the problem.
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  #68  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dave99 View Post
Dean, see bolded above. I will check today with the paper clip method or else section the once fired brass with the stretch marks to check it for thinning from the inside.

My next step is to locate a piece of 9mm brass to measure the shoulder position, or else order a no-go gauge.

Edit: I just spent some quality time with a bent paper clip. I first checked the blown out and partially separated Lapua brass to get the feel for the thin section. I then tried on the once fired Norma (not yet resized) and could feel no discernible thinning or circumferential groove on the inside of it. Maybe Dean is right and the external stretch mark on the once fired Norma is not a sign of separation to come.

Another thing I will do is FL resize* some of this once fired Norma and load it up to moderate loads, then shoot it and see what happens.

* FL resize with the die backed out, rather than screwed in further as I have been doing in the past. Once sized (but not yet loaded), I will compare it to my data set using the tape method in chambering. I will aim to have one tape thickness while allowing the bolt to close (indicating approx. 0.0035") and then load and fire. I will then see what happens to the case.

Thx.
If you have your die set right the bolt will close easily on the sized brass, and NOT close or be quite tight with one layer of tape on it. My bet is, if you put the once fired case in the rifle the bolt will close easily on it before it is ever resized. That is why I am a fan of only neck sizing brass. I can shoot brass in most of my rifles at least 10 times before I need to bump the shoulder at all and I have never had to FL size any case, no matter how often it was fired, to get the ammo to feed properly.
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  #69  
Old 02-21-2020, 04:28 PM
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So Dave, any updates on the rifle and case head issues?
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  #70  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:13 PM
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So Dave, any updates on the rifle and case head issues?


Had some great help from a forum member tonight, who helped get me sorted out. I will post methods and results, as well as what I learned, in the next day or two.


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  #71  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:54 PM
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Ok, so here is how things have been going with the rifle:

I FL resized the once fired Norma brass, paying attention to how I set up the RCBS resizer.

- I basically started with the once fired brass and ran it (lubed) through the FL die, with the die set up 1/4 turn backed off from the point in which it the die makes contact with a case with the ram down. I then took the resized and deprimed case and cycled it through the rifle, and felt resistance on lowering the bolt. (By comparison, fired but not resized brass cycled smoothly).

Confused, I then proceeded to lower the resizer die incrementally by 1/8 turn, each time testing to see whether I could cycle it smoothly. Finally, with the die screwed in 1/8 turn past the point of contact with the case, I could finally cycle the resized brass without resistance. So that is how I set my die.

**more on this later, since I still couldn’t explain why the brass would chamber before sizing, but would not do so after sizing*** was I doing the opposite of bumping the shoulder and actually pushing it forwards? How and why??

Once resized with the above technique, I loaded a batch of 10 brass with a moderate load and headed to the range.

I found some spent 9mm brass at the range and put it aside for later use. The loaded rounds fired without issue, and no obvious separations occurred. Primers looked fine, and accuracy was in the 1-1.5 MOA range (for what it is worth...).

Now home, I set aside 5 brass for measuring with the 9mm brass sitting on top.

Here are the brass descriptions and OAL measurement with 9mm brass inserted:
1. New (unfired) Norma 2.8165
2. 1x fired then FL resized Lapua (from the lot that had the incipient separations upon 2nd firing) 2.8125
3. 2x fired Lapua showing incipient separation. 2.8235
4. 1x fired, never resized, Norma. 2.8195
5. 1x fired blue box Federal. 2.8195

See picture below:



Obsessed1, from the forum was kind enough to help me interpret and compared to a 30.06 of his own.

———// to be continued //——-


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  #72  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:31 PM
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Brass will flow forward if it has room. It is very common to have brass gain headspace when resizing. You are overthinking this and you are still over sizing your brass. 2.8195 is your chamber length. Size your brass to 2.8175. Problem solved immediately.
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  #73  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:42 PM
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Brass will flow forward if it has room. It is very common to have brass gain headspace when resizing. You are overthinking this and you are still over sizing your brass. 2.8195 is your chamber length. Size your brass to 2.8175. Problem solved immediately.
Winner, winner. Chamber falls within saami. brass was being over worked. Use 9mm as bump gauge to confirm pushing shoulder back .002 and go....
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  #74  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:00 PM
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—-// CONTINUED //——

The once fired brass gives an impression of my rifles headspace. Both once fired 2.8195, and several others measured within 1/2 thou of this.

My Lapua FL resized from the batch that I had a lot of trouble with 2.8125, fully 0.007 shorter at the shoulder. As Obsessed and Chuck have said, this was my issue.

I had no idea that I’d bumped the shoulder this far, nor did I even know what number would constitute pushing it too far. I was just following RCBS instructions. That was lesson 1 for me.

Lesson 2 was more nuanced: I mentioned about my confusion at why FL resized brass with the die set at any point less than 1/8 turn past the point of contact did not allow the resized brass to chamber without significant pressure on the bolt as it was depressed. I asked Obsessed about this, since I couldn’t figure it out.

It turns out that as the ram is brought back up and the expander ball runs back through the neck, when the neck is not properly lubricated the ball will create a bump here, which effectively bumps the neck/shoulder junction forward.

Even though I run a lubed nylon brush through the neck, I believe that this is what was causing the otherwise-properly bumped shoulders to fail to chamber.

So with that in mind, my next step is to try a better graphite style neck lube, and (as pretty much everyone here has suggested) aim to bump 0.002 on resizing by checking with the 9mm brass method and going for a value of 2.8195 (rifle headspace) - 0.002 = 2.8175.

Makes sense?

Thanks fellas. I now know FAR MORE about this stuff than this time last month.


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  #75  
Old 02-23-2020, 01:09 AM
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Okay, one more time. The once fired brass chambers smoothly with NO pressure to close the bolt. Therefore, you do not need to bump the shoulder at all, nor do you need to reduce any of the diameter on the body of the case. Get a neck size die and reload the neck sized brass.

As far as your FL die, 1/8th turn off the shell holder is still going to over size the brass. It is possible that the ball on the primer rod is binding on the out bound stroke and is pulling the neck forward but it is a whole lot more likely that when you FL size the brass you are squeezing the body enough to actually lengthen the shoulder and overall case length. My bet is that if you measure a sized case at 1/8 off the shell holder both the neck and overall case length will be significantly longer than the once fire case measured. think about what happens when you squeeze something in your hand, the extra material has to go somewhere and in this case it pushes up into the shoulder and neck until you screw the die down so far that you actually push it back down at the shoulder again.

If you insist on using the FL die, back it off a full turn from touching the shell holder, run a piece of brass through it and check chambering. If it gives you resistance, keep backing it off an 1/8th turn at a time till it quits doing that. You already know the once fired chambers fine, what you are trying for with the die is to only tighten the neck enough to hold the bullet tight again, you do not need to reduce the body diameter or move the shoulder back as all you are doing is creating excess head space.
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  #76  
Old 02-23-2020, 08:43 AM
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1/8 of a turn is FAR to much to set any die properly. Get a $30 set of measuring devices and do it properly. That way you don’t have to resort to neck sizing. A last resort IMO.
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  #77  
Old 02-23-2020, 08:59 AM
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1/8 of a turn is FAR to much to set any die properly. Get a $30 set of measuring devices and do it properly. That way you don’t have to resort to neck sizing. A last resort IMO.
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  #78  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:07 AM
spoiledsaskhunter spoiledsaskhunter is offline
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dean and chuck.........are we basically talking about different methods to get to the same place?

i've been reloading since the mid '70's and am presently having the same symptoms with a t3 in 22-250. probably because it's a rifle i shoot much more often than any of my other hunting rifles. i've only been getting 3/4 reloadings out of my brass before head separation and this thread has really opened my eyes. guess it shows how little a guy knows even after being at it for years.

i've got fl resizing gear and would prefer not to go buy more, so am asking if i can get by by using it and backing off the sizing die.......sounds like there's a difference of opinion here and i'm not trying to start a fight, just thinking if i could solve my problem without buying more gear, i would.

so far i've been just putting up with getting new brass, but it would be nice to get more loading out of it. the once fired would fit way nicer too.
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
1/8 of a turn is FAR to much to set any die properly. Get a $30 set of measuring devices and do it properly. That way you don’t have to resort to neck sizing. A last resort IMO.
Reloading dies are 7/8"x14 tpi NF. The die will move .07143" per turn, so 1/8 turn is .00893". If you are adjusting the die down to do a shoulder bump, this is too large an increment and yes you do need to use measuring tools as well. However, like I said many times on this thread, the OP does not need to bump his shoulder or reduce the diameter of his once fired brass, it feeds and fits the chamber just fine BEFORE he ever runs it through a die. All he needs to do is get the neck to hold the bullet tight again. The whole point of reloading is to have brass that is custom fit to your chamber, if you are just going to squeeze it back to factory you might as well shoot factory ammo.

OP. please at least try minimal FL sizing before deciding. I will bet dollars to donuts it solves your feeding and head separation problems.
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:27 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter View Post
dean and chuck.........are we basically talking about different methods to get to the same place?

i've been reloading since the mid '70's and am presently having the same symptoms with a t3 in 22-250. probably because it's a rifle i shoot much more often than any of my other hunting rifles. i've only been getting 3/4 reloadings out of my brass before head separation and this thread has really opened my eyes. guess it shows how little a guy knows even after being at it for years.

i've got fl resizing gear and would prefer not to go buy more, so am asking if i can get by by using it and backing off the sizing die.......sounds like there's a difference of opinion here and i'm not trying to start a fight, just thinking if i could solve my problem without buying more gear, i would.

so far i've been just putting up with getting new brass, but it would be nice to get more loading out of it. the once fired would fit way nicer too.
Some of the best competitors in the world full length size their brass. In fact, you need to look harder to find people that neck size anymore. You are likely over sizing your brass and that is easy to fix.
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:34 AM
spoiledsaskhunter spoiledsaskhunter is offline
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how far off base am i here?

what if i back everything off until it's clear, then run a brass in to the top of the stroke.....then wind the die back down until it just touches the brass.....then run my resizer ball down until it goes in far enough to go into the brass. by doing it this way, i'd be keeping the fired dimensions of my brass and resizing the neck (wouldn't i?)

btw.....should i start a new thread so i'm not conflicting with the op? thought maybe we could talk about it here because we've got the same problem.
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  #82  
Old 02-23-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter View Post
dean and chuck.........are we basically talking about different methods to get to the same place?

i've been reloading since the mid '70's and am presently having the same symptoms with a t3 in 22-250. probably because it's a rifle i shoot much more often than any of my other hunting rifles. i've only been getting 3/4 reloadings out of my brass before head separation and this thread has really opened my eyes. guess it shows how little a guy knows even after being at it for years.

i've got fl resizing gear and would prefer not to go buy more, so am asking if i can get by by using it and backing off the sizing die.......sounds like there's a difference of opinion here and i'm not trying to start a fight, just thinking if i could solve my problem without buying more gear, i would.

so far i've been just putting up with getting new brass, but it would be nice to get more loading out of it. the once fired would fit way nicer too.
You are over sizing your brass, just like the OP, if you are getting head separation after 3-4 rounds. There are two ways to cure this. A neck sizing die works well for many people because it is very easy to set up and you would be REALLY hard pressed to oversize your brass using one of those but you can bump the neck back with a neck die. A neck die does not touch the body at all, and it is why you only need to lube the inside of the case neck to use one. This provides the added benefit that you don't have to clean the lube off the case when you are done. For people that have trouble figuring out how to FL size their brass properly they are a good solution. That said, if you adjust the FL sizing die properly, having regard to what your once fired brass measures, there is absolutely no reason why a FL die won't do a great job on the brass.

Fire new brass once, measure carefully, if the brass feeds smoothly into the gun again before resizing, make sure that the FL die is set so that it neither bumps the shoulder back nor leaves you with a shoulder that is in fact actually longer. If you squeeze the body of the brass too much it will actually cause your brass to lengthen at the shoulder and in overall length. This is what gives you the resistance that makes people think they need to screw the die down further, when in fact they need to actually back the die off MORE.

Shoulder measurement is not the only critical element in resizing brass. The diameter at the rim, half way up the body and at the body shoulder junction also plays a role. Many chambers allow the body of the brass to expand by quite a significant amount. There is no need to squeeze these body dimensions back down to SAMI min, which is what most FL dies are sized to do. Like I said above, squeezing the body back down this much, the brass has to go somewhere. By backing the FL die off you end up squeezing the body down less the further you back the die out. Now in some chambers that are particularly large in the body diameter you can't back a FL die off far enough to not squeeze the body too much and still size the neck enough. For guns with these generous a chamber a neck die is the only option, unless you have the FL die custom reamed or a new chamber cut.

This is a fairly complex thing to clearly layout in type. Anyone that wants to discuss further, P.M. me your phone number and I will give you a call.

Last edited by Dean2; 02-23-2020 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 02-23-2020, 10:13 AM
spoiledsaskhunter spoiledsaskhunter is offline
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thank you, for being willing to share your knowledge.
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