Here we go again re: feral horses

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by BGSH

I've seen several horses last year west of nordegg. I was wondering if this group was 100% wild. And if so what is there free range?

Some of the hwy 11 horses are bighorn reserve horses.

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Some of the hwy 11 horses are bighorn reserve horses.

So that means some are wild. Now if they would breed what are the new borns wild or reserve horses?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by fish gunner

Have done, earliest I can find 1519 . My exs family were some of the first settlers in the hinton edson area and the horses were there when they arrived 1890 odds. palliser commented on the fine horses of the kootanei band ??? Please give a more accurate account if you have better info . Earlier pics of the natives in the Calgary area have horses.

The first Europeans in present day Alberta came through at the same time, the 1730's, but from the east.


Is there any proof that living feral horses in Alberta are direct decendants of the original conquistador stock? No.

Originally Posted by new LT

We believe the wild horses are native to the Americas and, specifically to the Alberta wild horses, the government’s argument actually conflicts with scientific fact both ecological and evolutionary,” said Calvert, adding horses have been in North America for upwards of 50 million years.

You are friggin' hilarious!

Shouldn't this be in the Mammoth hunting thread?

Originally Posted by artie

not to prolong this thread but something I was wondering about is I see wild horse in Maclean Creek and Little and Big Elbow where the snow gets deep in the winter but I never see any in the Crowsnest Pass. Years ago I would hear the oldtimers talking about wild horses in the Pass but not now. I know the elk have to get down to the lower parts of the pass or go to the foothills but I wonder why wild or feral horses have not been seen in the pass. I would think that the gap area would be good for horses but I do not see them there.

ESRD has maintained a pretty tight rein on the feral horses in the Upper Oldman through trapping permits. The Kananaskis horses have gotten out of hand and have only been recently had any population control, I believe in 2012.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by BGSH

I've seen several horses last year west of nordegg. I was wondering if this group was 100% wild. And if so what is there free range?

There are no 100% wild horses in Alberta. Please don't call them that. The horses in question are decendants of escaped and freed livestock from the early 1900's.
They are feral. Not wild.

R.

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by Rman

There are no 100% wild horses in Alberta. Please don't call them that. The horses in question are decendants of escaped and freed livestock from the early 1900's.
They are feral. Not wild.

R.

Do you have any proof? That there have been no wild horses ever in Alberta? But I guess will neve know for sure. Non the less didn't you or someone say some of these horses are wild and some are from bighorn reservation ?

[6tmile]

Originally Posted by BGSH

Do you have any proof? That there have been no wild horses ever in Alberta? But I guess will neve know for sure. Non the less didn't you or someone say some of these horses are wild and some are from bighorn reservation ?

Are you doing your new LT impersonation or what?

[Rman]

Originally Posted by BGSH

Do you have any proof? That there have been no wild horses ever in Alberta? But I guess will neve know for sure. Non the less didn't you or someone say some of these horses are wild and some are from bighorn reservation ?

http://srd.alberta.ca/LandsForests/L...s/Default.aspx


"Alberta's free-ranging horses, most of which are found west of the town of Sundre, are descendants of domestic horses used in logging and guiding/outfitting operations in the early 1900s. When these horses were no longer needed, they were set free. Since then, these horses have produced several generations of offspring and continue to occupy the area around the original operations west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House."

R.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by 6tmile

Are you doing your new LT impersonation or what?

Might be the same guy. There are no wild horses. There are genetic markers linked to the Spanish Mustangs that originally entered the continent in the 1500s but they are weak and a present in greater frequency in a lot domestic populations. They are feral not wild -- no matter what you call them.

[BGSH]

Who's LT? Anyways so from the 1900s these horses have been wild. That's amazing that they can survive Alberta winters and that no one has tried to steel them yet.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by BGSH

Who's LT? Anyways so from the 1900s these horses have been wild. That's amazing that they can survive Alberta winters and that no one has tried to steel them yet.

You obviously have reading comprehension problems.

They are feral, not wild. Please read through the entire thread and educate yourself.

R.

[new LT]

[QUOTE=walking buffalo;1989654]


The first Europeans in present day Alberta came through at the same time, the 1730's, but from the east.


Is there any proof that living feral horses in Alberta are direct decendants of the original conquistador stock? No.









You are friggin' hilarious!

Shouldn't this be in the Mammoth hunting thread?

you believe what you want i will believe the scientific facts

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by BGSH

Who's LT? Anyways so from the 1900s these horses have been wild. That's amazing that they can survive Alberta winters and that no one has tried to steel them yet.

They have been feral. In the same way goats on the Galapagos from 1800s are feral and hogs in the US from 1600 are feral.

They are descended from draft type horses. Big squat bodies that retain heat.

They do not tame easily and generally make poor mounts -- why steal them?

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by Rman

You obviously have reading comprehension problems.

They are feral, not wild. Please read through the entire thread and educate yourself.

R.

It's been over 100 years so maybe you can call them wild now. If you can read my friend please help me out, were these horses at one time wild for that matter anywhere in Canada ?

[Rman]

Originally Posted by BGSH

It's been over 100 years so maybe you can call them wild now. If you can read my friend please help me out, were these horses at one time wild for that matter anywhere in Canada ?

It doesn't work that way, bud, you can't call them wild, because they are not.
I can read quite well, and suggest you do the same. I provided you with a quote that explained exactly where they came from.
The answer to your question is no.

R.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by BGSH

It's been over 100 years so maybe you can call them wild now. If you can read my friend please help me out, were these horses at one time wild for that matter anywhere in Canada ?

No. They have always been feral. Everywhere.

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by sjemac

They have been feral. In the same way goats on the Galapagos from 1800s are feral and hogs in the US from 1600 are feral.

They are descended from draft type horses. Big squat bodies that retain heat.

They do not tame easily and generally make poor mounts -- why steal them?

This is so interesting. I always wondered about these horses. I have around 50 pictures. I will find them an post them here in the near future.

Love friendly debates.

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by Rman

It doesn't work that way, bud, you can't call them wild, because they are not.
I can read quite well, and suggest you do the same. I provided you with a quote that explained exactly where they came from.
The answer to your question is no.

R.

Thanks for the debate Rman. I won't call them wild horses again but I will call them feral horses.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by sjemac

No. They have always been feral. Everywhere.

Interesting. I went and looked up the definition of feral:
"fr. L fera wild animal, 1: of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast: savage 2 a: not domesticated or cultivated : wild b: having escaped from domestication and become wild.<--(note the last two words)

Wild; 1 a: living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated
b: growing or produced without the aid and care of man.

Interesting isn't it?

[BGSH]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Interesting. I went and looked up the definition of feral:
"fr. L fera wild animal, 1: of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast: savage 2 a: not domesticated or cultivated : wild b: having escaped from domestication and become wild.<--(note the last two words)

Wild; 1 a: living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated
b: growing or produced without the aid and care of man.

Interesting isn't it?

Thank you. I am on my phone and didn't want to take time to type this all out.

[sjemac]

A feral animal (from Latin fera, "a wild beast") is an animal living in the wild but descended from domesticated individuals. When the term is extended to plants it reflects a transition from cultivated to uncultivated or controlled to volunteer status.
As with an introduced species, the introduction of feral animals or plants to non-native regions may disrupt ecosystems and has, in some cases, contributed to extinction of indigenous species. Feral species may however eliminate "problem" species such as rodents, harmful insects, or aggressive plants. Likewise returning lost species to their environment can have beneficial effects, such as bringing damaged ecosystems back into balance.

Stray kitten in Nablus
Many dictionary definitions of a feral animal state that a feral animal is one that has escaped from a domestic or captive status and is living more or less as a wild animal. Other definitions define a feral animal as one that has changed from being domesticated to being wild, natural, or untamed. Some common examples of animals with feral populations are horses, dogs, goats, cats, and pigs.
Zoologists generally exclude from the "feral" category animals that were genuinely wild before they escaped from captivity: neither lions escaped from a zoo nor the sea eagles (Haliaeetus albicilla) recently re-introduced into the UK are regarded as "feral". Wild (i.e. non-domesticated) species naturalized into a new territory are not normally considered feral animals.[1]
Plants [edit]

Domesticated plants that revert to wild are usually referred to as escaped, introduced or naturalized rather than feral. However, the adaptive and ecological variables seen in plants that go wild closely resemble those of animals.
Variables [edit]

Susceptibility [edit]
Certain familiar animals go feral easily and successfully, while others are much less inclined to wander and usually fail promptly outside domestication.
Degree [edit]
Some species will detach readily from humans and pursue their own devices, but do not stray far or spread readily. Others depart and are gone, seeking out new territory or range to exploit and displaying active invasiveness.
Persistence [edit]
Whether they leave readily and venture far, the ultimate criterion for success is longevity. Persistence depends on their ability to establish themselves and reproduce reliably in the new environment.
Tenure of domestication [edit]
Neither the duration nor the intensity with which a species has been domesticated offers a useful correlation with its feral potential.
Examples of feral animals [edit]



Feral dogs in Bucharest
The cat returns readily to a feral state if it has not been socialized properly in its young life. (See Feral cats.) These cats, especially if left to proliferate, are frequently considered to be pests in both rural and urban areas, and may be blamed for devastating the bird, reptile and mammal populations. A local population of feral cats living in an urban area and using a common food source is sometimes called a feral cat colony. As feral cats multiply quickly, it is difficult to control their populations. Animal shelters attempt to adopt out feral cats, especially kittens, but often are overwhelmed with sheer numbers and euthanasia is used. In rural areas, excessive numbers of feral cats are often shot. More recently, the "Trap-Neuter-Return" method has been used in many locations as an alternate means of managing the feral cat population.


A feral goat in Kielder Forest
The goat is one of the oldest domesticated creatures, yet readily goes feral and does quite well on its own.
The dromedary camel, which has been domesticated for well over 3,000 years, will also readily go feral. A substantial population of feral dromedaries, descended from pack animals that escaped in the 19th and early 20th centuries, thrives in the Australian interior today.
Sheep are close contemporaries and cohorts of goats in the history of domestication, but the domestic sheep is quite vulnerable to predation and injury, and thus rarely if ever is seen in a feral state. However, in places where there are few predators, they get on well, for example in the case of the Soay sheep.
Water buffalo run rampant in Western and Northern Australia. This is the only part of the world where they are legally hunted in their original range. The Australian government encourages the hunting of feral water buffalo because of their large numbers.
Cattle have been domesticated since the neolithic era, but can do well enough on open range for months or even years with little or no supervision. Their ancestors, the aurochs, were quite fierce, on par with the modern Cape Buffalo. Modern cattle, especially those raised on open range, are generally more docile, but when threatened can display aggression. Cattle, particularly those raised for beef, are often allowed to roam quite freely and have established long term independence in Australia, New Zealand and several Pacific Islands along with small populations of semi-feral animals roaming the southwestern United States and northern Mexico. Such cattle are variously called Mavericks, Scrubbers or Cleanskins. Most free roaming cattle, however untamed, are generally too valuable not to be eventually rounded up and recovered in closely settled regions.
Horses and donkeys, domesticated about 5000 BCE, are feral in open grasslands worldwide (see feral horse). In Portugal, feral horses are called Sorraia; in Australia, they are called Brumbies; in the American west, they are called Mustangs. Other isolated feral populations exist, including the Chincoteague Pony and the Banker Horse. They are often referred to as "wild horses," but this is a misnomer. There are truly "wild" horses that have never been domesticated, most notably Przewalski's Horse. While the horse was originally indigenous to North America, the wild ancestor died out at the end of the last Ice Age. In both Australia and the Americas, modern "wild" horses descended from domesticated horses brought by European explorers and settlers that escaped, spread, and thrived.


Feral donkeys or burros in Nevada
The pig (hog) has established feral populations worldwide, most notably in Australia, New Zealand, the United States, New Guinea and the Pacific Islands. Pigs were introduced to the Melanesian and Polynesian regions by humans from several thousand to five hundred years ago, and to the Americas within the past 500 years. In Australia, domesticated pigs escaped in the 18th century, and now cover 40 percent of Australia[2] with a population estimated at 30 million. While pigs were doubtlessly brought to New Zealand by the original Polynesian settlers, this population had become extinct by the time of European colonization, and all feral pigs in New Zealand today are descendants of European stock. Many European wild boar populations are also partially descended from escaped domestic pigs and are thus technically feral animals within the native range of the ancestral species.
Rock Pigeons were formerly kept for their meat or more commonly as racing animals and have established feral populations in cities worldwide.
Colonies of honey bees often escape into the wild from managed apiaries when they swarm; their behavior, however, is no different from their behavior "in captivity", until and unless they breed with other feral honey bees of a different genetic stock, which may lead them to become more docile or more aggressive (see Africanized bees).
Large colonies of feral parrots are present in various parts of the world, with Rose-ringed Parakeets, Monk Parakeets and Red-masked Parakeets (the latter of which became the subject of the documentary film, The Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill) being particularly successful outside of their native habitats and adapting well to suburban environments.
Harmful and beneficial effects of feralization [edit]


This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2008)


Rock doves, also known as pigeons: feral animals who nonetheless live in close proximity to humans


A Feral Barbary Dove in Tasmania, Australia. Also known as a Ringneck Dove or Ring Dove (Streptopelia risoria)
Ecological impact [edit]
A feral population can have a significant impact on an ecosystem by predation on vulnerable plants or animals, or by competition with indigenous species. Feral plants and animals constitute a significant share of invasive species, and can be a threat to endangered species.
Genetic pollution [edit]
Main article: Genetic pollution
Animals of domestic origin sometimes can produce fertile hybrids with native, wild animals which leads to genetic pollution (not a clear term itself) in the naturally evolved wild gene pools, many times threatening rare species with extinction. Cases include the mallard duck, wild boar, the rock dove or pigeon, the Red Junglefowl (Gallus gallus) (ancestor of all chickens), carp, and more recently salmon[citation needed]. Other examples of genetic swamping lie in the breeding history of dingoes. Dingoes are a wild true dogs that will interbreed with dogs of other origins, thus leading to the proliferation of dingo hybrids and the possibility of the extinction of pure wild dingoes.[3] Researches in Scotland have remarked on a similar pheonomenon of the genetic mixing of feral domestic cats and their wild counterparts.[4] In some cases like rabbits, genetic pollution seems not to be noticed. There is much debate over the degree to which feral hybridization compromises the purity of a wild species. In the case of the mallard, for example, some claim there are no populations that are completely free of any domestic ancestor.[citation needed]

[Matt L.]

Nice recovery but the actual meaning of the word which you are hooked on still means wild. My only point is insisting they be called feral because they "aren't wild" is kinda dumb.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sjemac

They do not tame easily and generally make poor mounts -- why steal them?

This comment shows your lack of knowledge of the topic horses. These mounts are actually easy to gain trust and break in their early years(1-4approx).
At that point many make top mountain and pleasure horses!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Interesting. I went and looked up the definition of feral:
"fr. L fera wild animal, 1: of, relating to, or suggestive of a wild beast: savage 2 a: not domesticated or cultivated : wild b: having escaped from domestication and become wild.<--(note the last two words)

Wild; 1 a: living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated
b: growing or produced without the aid and care of man.

Interesting isn't it?

So technically calling them Feral or Wild actually covers these horses so people can stop trying to dictate what people say!!! As in fact they are no more right than anyone.

[Wild&Free]

After how many generations does one consider a feral population and wild population? 2, 3, a dozen? Its not like all these horses were released after they were born into domestication is the distinction I think some people were trying to make.

IMO, if it's born wild, it's wild. If it was born into domestication and allowed to go wild or released into the wild then it's Feral. That is my interpretation of the words, so to me they are wild horses. Insisting that they are feral after several successful generations in the wild is putting a negative connotation on the animal that did not choose to be born where it was but is doing what all life does, survive and reproduce.

The fact that this turned into a debate over what wild and feral mean, some of you seem to be grasping at straws trying to keep your arguments relevant. You kind of got lost in the fervor to convince others that these animals are a problem. Still haven't seen much, if any, evidence to support that claim.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

After how many generations does one consider a feral population and wild population? 2, 3, a dozen? Its not like all these horses were released after they were born into domestication is the distinction I think some people were trying to make.

IMO, if it's born wild, it's wild. If it was born into domestication and allowed to go wild or released into the wild then it's Feral. That is my interpretation of the words, so to me they are wild horses. Insisting that they are feral after several successful generations in the wild is putting a negative connotation on the animal that did not choose to be born where it was but is doing what all life does, survive and reproduce.

The fact that this turned into a debate over what wild and feral mean, some of you seem to be grasping at straws trying to keep your arguments relevant. You kind of got lost in the fervor to convince others that these animals are a problem. Still haven't seen much, if any, evidence to support that claim.

By you logic then, nothing is feral and we should retire the word. Those are wild pigeons and wild rats we are dealing with? Feral specifically refers to an animal once domesticated that has gone wild. So they are not wild horses, they are feral since they were once domesticated -- wild is only a part of being feral.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This comment shows your lack of knowledge of the topic horses. These mounts are actually easy to gain trust and break in their early years(1-4approx).
At that point many make top mountain and pleasure horses!!

Of the ones you've caught what percentage were in that age range?

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So technically calling them Feral or Wild actually covers these horses so people can stop trying to dictate what people say!!! As in fact they are no more right than anyone.

The words feral and wild have way more to do with political designation than definitional words cherry picked from one dictionary with a slightly different definition than others.

Using wild removes the horses from the class of animals that includes hogs, pigeons and other feral animals and places them in with mountain sheep and elk. Essentially granting a special status to one species that others of similar origin do not get. So why do horses get the special treatment?

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by sjemac

By you logic then, nothing is feral and we should retire the word. Those are wild pigeons and wild rats we are dealing with? Feral specifically refers to an animal once domesticated that has gone wild. So they are not wild horses, they are feral since they were once domesticated -- wild is only a part of being feral.

By this logic, it wouldn't be a stretch to call wolves, feral dogs. As they're both of the same species and wolves were domesticated by the natives across the northern hemisphere. How do we know for sure that all wolves at one point were not domesticated and eventually escaped?


Also, by my logic, escaped domesticated animals are feral animals, however their successful offspring and successive generations I cannot consider to be feral as they were never domesticated. Having originated from domesticated stock gives them a distinction. So, at what point does a feral population become a wild population? Or are these horses another century from now still going to be feral?

[rhuntley12]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This comment shows your lack of knowledge of the topic horses. These mounts are actually easy to gain trust and break in their early years(1-4approx).
At that point many make top mountain and pleasure horses!!

Do you have any feral horses as mounts currently? My sister in the States had a mustang that used to be feral but never saw it in person. I've always been curious about them catching them and getting them back home.

Was a stud up near Mesa Butte a couple years ago that someone probably could have got a halter on without too much trouble, was lame though and never saw it again after that year.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sjemac

Of the ones you've caught what percentage were in that age range?

We targeted that age range. When we ran them and threw ropes it was always young horses. When we trapped we were selective on the horses we took. So I'd say probably 90% of what I personally took were of this age.