Wabamun techniques for the big one?

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Yes. People say the BIG pike are dissapearing because of all the 1-2 lb walleye but they don't even eat the same thing. Those walleye are eating stunted perch, shiners, sticklebacks, and young sport fish. Big pike target whitefish, Cisco, and suckers. Unless the walleye are eating up the young whitefish, Cisco (if wab has them) and suckers, the big pike main food source is still there. Big pike don't waste time chasing around a stunted perch if there is a 2 lb whitefish to be had.... How are the whitefish doing in Wab? If those walleye are affecting the whitefish, then they could be affecting the big pike down the road. Are the whitefish dissapearing?

Generally big pike are able to eat big bait, and yes, they do not often expend energy chasing small bait as often. That's why dead sticking a big 10" herring is a great way to catch a big pike. Smaller fish may attempt to take that bait, but often are unable to get it in their mouths.

Big Pike do forage on big bait - no doubt. They also don't chase small bait as often. Agreed.....

However, the majority of their diet still consists of smaller fish - so to say that a big pike won't opportunistically feed on smaller forage, in competition with the walleye or smaller pike, simply isn't true.

Anyone who has caught a big pike (say 15-25 lbs) on a small lure they were casting or trolling would disagree with your theory. The big pike had to chase to grab the lure didn't it?

I would say most of the big pike I've seen caught (or caught myself) were on a moving lure and most of those using a small one (5" or smaller).

My main point is, even if big pike only derive 25% of their food from small forage, the introduction of the walleye competing for that food exists and therefore has an impact on big pike too.

The big pike are definitely getting skinnier - my last pike in the open water season was 43" and weighed around 18lbs ...... that same pike 5 years ago would have been closer to 25.

As a matter of fact of the dozen big pike caught this year - all of them were skinny or slim for their length as well.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by EZM

Generally big pike are able to eat big bait, and yes, they do not often expend energy chasing small bait as often. That's why dead sticking a big 10" herring is a great way to catch a big pike. Smaller fish may attempt to take that bait, but often are unable to get it in their mouths.

Big Pike do forage on big bait - no doubt. They also don't chase small bait as often. Agreed.....

However, the majority of their diet still consists of smaller fish - so to say that a big pike won't opportunistically feed on smaller forage, in competition with the walleye or smaller pike, simply isn't true.

Anyone who has caught a big pike (say 15-25 lbs) on a small lure they were casting or trolling would disagree with your theory. The big pike had to chase to grab the lure didn't it?

I would say most of the big pike I've seen caught (or caught myself) were on a moving lure and most of those using a small one (5" or smaller).

My main point is, even if big pike only derive 25% of their food from small forage, the introduction of the walleye competing for that food exists and therefore has an impact on big pike too.

So you think the declining big pike population is due to the fact they starved to death is what your saying?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

So you think the declining big pike population is due to the fact they starved to death is what your saying?

I believe a large portion of fish are starving to death in that lake. The walleye which have always been fairly healthy considering their puny size are now starting to grow longer but not fill out weight wise. 90% of the pike look anorexic and they don't fight worth crap either.

As for the real big fish I don't know if they are starving, a few of the biggest ones I caught this last year were still in decent shape but I have caught some 30+ inch pike that are pretty sad too.

What I think has happened is a combination of too much fishing pressure killing the larger fish and all the smaller fish being stunted and not growing up to replace the big ones.

I think the best thing that could happen to wab is have half the fish die off... I would really like it if they opened it up so you could keep say 1 walleye under 43 cm and 1 pike under 63 cm. It would help thin out the general population and the remaining fish would be much healthier.

The way the fishing has become out there I don't think I will even bother going back much this winter, maybe a trip or two when I am too lazy to drive elsewhere but it definitely isn't going to be my go to lake anymore like it used to be.

For those that don't fish wab or know the issue is here are a few pictures from one afternoon of fishing this summer. There are lots of fish that look like this now. There is clearly something wrong with the lake and it appears to be a lack of food.

[Andy44]

Originally Posted by RavYak

For those that don't fish wab or know the issue is here are a few pictures from one afternoon of fishing this summer. There are lots of fish that look like this now. There is clearly something wrong with the lake and it appears to be a lack of food.

Thanks for posting those pictures man. It really shows just how bad it's getting. Those pike looks very sickly.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Andy44

Thanks for posting those pictures man. It really shows just how bad it's getting. Those pike looks very sickly.

Just like most of the pike in South Buck.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

So you think the declining big pike population is due to the fact they starved to death is what your saying?

I would say, without any hesitation, it's a significant factor.

When pike after pike are skinny as rails there is something going on here. Rav's pictures are worth a 1000 words.

The bigger pike (over 36") are all also very very skinny.

Up until this year I spent 30 days a year catching fish on that lake and probably caught, conservatively, 40 pike per day ....... that's 1200 pike per year. That doesn't include the other person or two in my boat who caught a similar amount of fish either.

This year I went a little less but the results were the same. I am basing my opinion on thousands of pike caught, every year, over the last 15 years.

Could it be some disease? maybe ..... but this condition coincides with the introduction of the massive reintroduction of the walleye.

So ........ to answer your question .......... yes it's very likely a significant factor.

[JohninAB]

Wabamun was changing for a few reasons and the reintroduction of the walleye was just another nail in the coffin as they say.

[fish99]

wab is just starting to experience what other lakes that have been over stocked with walleye have gone thru . to create a amazing walleye fisher something has to suffer and thats the pike . the walleye will eat all the small forage fish and leave the lake with only larger fish until they die off of old age or lack of oxygen. the biologists should know by now what the fall out will be when disrupting the natural balance of nature. another great pike fishery destroyed, check out southern alberta most are now collapsed fisheries for pike.

[deerguy]

I assumed the Pike would just eat the Walleyes. Apperantly not

[EZM]

Originally Posted by deerguy

I assumed the Pike would just eat the Walleyes. Apperantly not

They do .........HOWEVER .........the walleye have a greater impact as competition for forage - versus being a food source themselves to the pike.

This has seen time and time again in a number of fisheries where the reintroduction of walleye into a pike dominated lake has had the exact same effect.

Even large pike will derive most of their calories and nutrition from "normal" sized bait ..... which they are competing to get with the more efficient walleye.

[PINEHURST-PIKE-FREAK]

I don't think that C&R has anything to do with the bii fish decline,this lake has always been heavily fished and has always been known for big fish.I'de say the 11.7 million walleye are the reason. Possibly it took several yrs to kill the bigger fish from that spill also.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by PINEHURST-PIKE-FREAK

I don't think that C&R has anything to do with the bii fish decline,this lake has always been heavily fished and has always been known for big fish.I'de say the 11.7 million walleye are the reason. Possibly it took several yrs to kill the bigger fish from that spill also.

For sure C&R has an effect and it has killed numerous fish on wab. I have caught many fish out there with ripped gills, messed up jaws, hooks/leaders sticking out of them and those are just the ones that happened to survive their poor handling experiences... I have also seen a fair share of floaters as well.

Big fish are especially susceptible to C&R issues because

a) There are fewer of them.
b) It is harder for them to recover and they usually fight to a more exhausted state.
c) Many people over handle them in trying to weigh, measure and photograph them.

Wab in many spots gets absolutely hammered with fishing pressure and it has been increasing even in just the past few years that I have fished it. It is still a big lake that should be capable of producing big fish but you need to take the blinders off if you think C&R isn't a part of what is hurting this lake.

The bigger issue now is all the smaller younger fish(and even some of the bigger ones) starving to death though as this disrupts the chain and will lead to a bunch of stunted starving fish as is already starting to be seen.

Now what is really going to be a **** off is if these stupid walleye don't take hold and reproduce. History tells us there is a decent chance they will not reproduce properly in wab(they were previously stocked and failed to take hold) and if that happens again then this collapse of the pike fishing could all be for nought...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by RavYak

For sure C&R has an effect and it has killed numerous fish on wab. I have caught many fish out there with ripped gills, messed up jaws, hooks/leaders sticking out of them and those are just the ones that happened to survive their poor handling experiences... I have also seen a fair share of floaters as well.

Big fish are especially susceptible to C&R issues because

a) There are fewer of them.
b) It is harder for them to recover and they usually fight to a more exhausted state.
c) Many people over handle them in trying to weigh, measure and photograph them.

Wab in many spots gets absolutely hammered with fishing pressure and it has been increasing even in just the past few years that I have fished it. It is still a big lake that should be capable of producing big fish but you need to take the blinders off if you think C&R isn't a part of what is hurting this lake.

The bigger issue now is all the smaller younger fish(and even some of the bigger ones) starving to death though as this disrupts the chain and will lead to a bunch of stunted starving fish as is already starting to be seen.

Now what is really going to be a **** off is if these stupid walleye don't take hold and reproduce. History tells us there is a decent chance they will not reproduce properly in wab(they were previously stocked and failed to take hold) and if that happens again then this collapse of the pike fishing could all be for nought...

I thought they have already been reproducing? When was the last stocking?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I thought they have already been reproducing? When was the last stocking?

They stocked 6.4 million fry size in 2012 and 5.2 million more in 2014. The 2 sizes are distinguishable in the average walleye caught. Only the larger fish would be able of reproducing although some of the 2012 stock might be starting to get close now.

If you think back even just 2 years catching a wabamun walleye was a rarity that most people were hunting for. Now the rarity is not catching one of the little buggers...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by RavYak

They stocked 6.4 million fry size in 2012 and 5.2 million more in 2014. The 2 sizes are distinguishable in the average walleye caught. Only the larger fish would be able of reproducing although some of the 2012 stock might be starting to get close now.

If you think back even just 2 years catching a wabamun walleye was a rarity that most people were hunting for. Now the rarity is not catching one of the little buggers...

Just looking at Shawns thread from 2012, some of the fish in the pics look very skinny already.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=141709

[Anglerhunter420]

Uploading some pics from wab this winter so far

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Just looking at Shawns thread from 2012, some of the fish in the pics look very skinny already.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=141709

I wish I had a picture showing me holding that 33 incher of mine, it isn't even half the fish of Shawn's worst one in that thread. It literally probably weighed 3 lbs. The best I can do is post a pic of a healthy 33 incher on my board to compare it to.

Healthy



Unhealthy



As you can see it doesn't even compare. These healthy fish were the exceptions this summer having only caught a half dozen or so of them out of literally hundreds that I caught at wab...

It is true even before the walleye got dumped in the pike were already overrun and on average weren't super healthy fish but I never caught fish as anorexic looking as what I now catch multiples of every single trip. The pike already had themselves bordering an unhealthy state, the walleye were just the nail in the coffin.

[Anglerhunter420]

[Talking moose]

Found this... Looks like wab was receiving walleye before 2012

[Anglerhunter420]

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Found this... Looks like wab was receiving walleye before 2012

There have been many walleye transplants to wab over the years.From Ste. Anne, Gennesse, Isle and perhaps others. The adult size fish were always in small numbers though. It is the 11 million fry they put in that are now everywhere in the lake.

[RavYak]

I have been in contact with a fisheries biologist for Wab and voiced my(and others on here) concern.

Some tidbits worth sharing.

I have heard from some of the public that they are concerned that the walleye re-establishment will affect the wonderful northern pike fishing. In the short –term, I believe that this may happen. As the lake community comes to equilibrium with the walleye population there may be an ‘adjustment’ for several years. This adjustment would be competition for food and habitat. In other lakes like Pigeon and Ste. Anne we did see for a 2 year period a reduction in condition i.e. skinny fish and some die off of older larger fish. We purposely stopped the re-stocking at Lake Wabamun early to circumvent this problem …but it still may occur.

However, we don’t have much for evidence yet to support this concern. The graphic below is the catches and sizes from our 2015 survey of northern pike. We still have large fish. The number caught declined but we do have a lot of variability in our catches. Too early to say there is a difference.

In a large survey of the public we got the feedback that Lake Wabamun should have a Trophy Management Objective meaning we will try to manage for good catches and large fish –for the time being the lake will remain at catch and release for all species. There could however, be a period when we won’t be able to achieve this objective as the lake comes into equilibrium with the new walleye population.

As I said earlier, there might be an ecological consequence to the walleye introduction but we are also seeing and getting reports of lots of hooking mortality. Residents at Follis have called and sent photos of flotillas of boats and dead pike floating into shore. We will watch the situation. Thanks again for the interest.

Unfortunately as we all know what is done is done. I shared with him what evidence I have of the starving fish and all we can do is hope it won't get too bad. I still think they should open it for a single year of retention of small pike/walleye but the chances of that happening are most likely nil.

[initiald]

I want to chime in on this topic.
I fish Wab quite a bit: summer time at least twice a week and winter at least 5 times a month. Winter fishing on Wab is my favorite time. I see big hogs all the time, and I catch them too. They are smart and they learn patterns, especially when it comes to dead bait with lines/hooks coming out of them.If they managed to live to be that size, they sure wont be making stupid moves.

I notice that around Dec-Mid Feb they are fairly skinny, and then they fatten up before spawn. then after spawn they are all skinny again.

In the last 5 years, there was only one fish 44" and only 12 LBS!
FullSizeRender1.jpg

Big fish is out there, its not biting because it has an abundant amount of feed on walleyes. Small pike has to compete with all the walleyes, hence why they are so skinny. A few years and this will sort out and it'll be back to new normal.

holes are 10"

IMG_2276.jpg
FullSizeRender.jpg
FullSizeRender2.jpg

Last year was best year for me as far as trophies.

my 2 cents.

[cube]

Originally Posted by initiald

Big fish is out there, its not biting because it has an abundant amount of feed on walleyes. Small pike has to compete with all the walleyes, hence why they are so skinny. A few years and this will sort out and it'll be back to new normal.

Just to let you know the scientific evidence suggests that pike do not eat any appreciable amounts of walleye. I have necropsied over 1000 large pike from walleye bearing lakes and have never found a single walleye in any of them.

For what it's worth anyway.

[Mitchthefisher]

I still get non stop action on the ice at wabuman but it is definatly a treat when i catch one in the 10-14lb range and i never see and rarely hear of 15+ being caught Sad the lake had gone down hill so much.

[cube]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I have been in contact with a fisheries biologist for Wab and voiced my(and others on here) concern.

Some tidbits worth sharing.

"However, we don’t have much for evidence yet to support this concern."



Unfortunately as we all know what is done is done. I shared with him what evidence I have of the starving fish and all we can do is hope it won't get too bad. I still think they should open it for a single year of retention of small pike/walleye but the chances of that happening are most likely nil.

What a CROCK. We/THEY have seen this in lake after lake after lake from their own netting data. When ever they start their great walleye experiment it comes with huge consequences for the pike.

[Mitchthefisher]

Originally Posted by initiald

I want to chime in on this topic.
I fish Wab quite a bit: summer time at least twice a week and winter at least 5 times a month. Winter fishing on Wab is my favorite time. I see big hogs all the time, and I catch them too. They are smart and they learn patterns, especially when it comes to dead bait with lines/hooks coming out of them.If they managed to live to be that size, they sure wont be making stupid moves.

I notice that around Dec-Mid Feb they are fairly skinny, and then they fatten up before spawn. then after spawn they are all skinny again.

In the last 5 years, there was only one fish 44" and only 12 LBS!
Attachment 116998

Big fish is out there, its not biting because it has an abundant amount of feed on walleyes. Small pike has to compete with all the walleyes, hence why they are so skinny. A few years and this will sort out and it'll be back to new normal.

holes are 10"

Attachment 116999
Attachment 117000
Attachment 117001

Last year was best year for me as far as trophies.

my 2 cents.

Nice ones man

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by cube

Just to let you know the scientific evidence suggests that pike do not eat any appreciable amounts of walleye. I have necropsied over 1000 large pike from walleye bearing lakes and have never found a single walleye in any of them.

For what it's worth anyway.

I have caught a couple pike attacking small walleye and know others that have had the same. I don't think they are a preferred meal but they will eat them.

Originally Posted by cube

What a CROCK. We/THEY have seen this in lake after lake after lake from their own netting data. When ever they start their great walleye experiment it comes with huge consequences for the pike.

I think especially after seeing my pictures he knows the same thing is happening at Wab, he sure didn't seem that surprised anyways and said they were great examples of skinny pike... I hope Wab doesn't turn into a Pigeon or Ste. Anne and I told him that too. Unfortunately I think we are stuck seeing what mother nature has in store as I doubt they will do anything to try and fix this potential mess.

[cube]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I have caught a couple pike attacking small walleye and know others that have had the same. I don't think they are a preferred meal but they will eat them. I don't think having a distressed walleye on a fishing line is a natural situation and hence, should be viewed with much skepticism



I think especially after seeing my pictures he knows the same thing is happening at Wab, he sure didn't seem that surprised anyways and said they were great examples of skinny pike... I hope Wab doesn't turn into a Pigeon or Ste. Anne and I told him that too. Unfortunately I think we are stuck seeing what mother nature has in store as I doubt they will do anything to try and fix this potential mess.

I agree given there past record of letting pike, perch and in some cases whitefish become decimated and sitting by and doing nothing for years.

[cube]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I have been in contact with a fisheries biologist for Wab and voiced my(and others on here) concern.

Some tidbits worth sharing.

"In other lakes like Pigeon and Ste. Anne we did see for a 2 year period a reduction in condition i.e. skinny fish and some die off of older larger fish."

.

I find it hilarious that they found a "2 year period " for Ste. Anne

From their own FWIN data you can see this has been going on for at least 14 years.

Pike now just getting to about 10% of what it once was. Whitefish still below 10% of what it once was. Perch not even in the same stratosphere yet of there population when management went solely for walleye.