Worldviews

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by avb3

No offense meant, but this is the problem with blindly taking things from a rumor mill and promulgating them.

Yes, it is a cute story, but, in the end, it's a story.

I agree, I threw it in for a fun read without checking authenticity. Guilty as charged.
This is why I'm not commenting on Numbers 3:15 at this time because I have found no literary works that examine this point, at this time. I know pro abortionist use this verse to try to justify their position, but that is a weak argument at least. One month must hold some significance, possibly in relation to the events that were taking or had taken place? There was a change in the structure of the Preisthood at that time. This one I will put aside for now and trust that I will be given an answer when the time is right.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

I agree, I threw it in for a fun read without checking authenticity. Guilty as charged.
This is why I'm not commenting on Numbers 3:15 at this time because I have found no literary works that looks at this, at this time. I know pro abortionist use this verse to try to justify their position, but that is a weak argument at least. One month must hold some significance, possibly in relation to the events that were taken or had taken place? This one I will put aside for now and trust that I will be given an answer when the time is right.

I don't use it to justify abortion (I have commented that I am very mixed on the subject), but I do find it very curious, if one views the bible as literal, to have it included.

[30Cal]

I have had to go through many books, especially the Bible to engage with you avb3. If anything this is a great exercise, for I find it is strengthening my faith. God Bless you avb3

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Scien...nd-85550.shtml

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by avb3

I don't use it to justify abortion (I have commented that I am very mixed on the subject), but I do find it very curious, if one views the bible as literal, to have it included.

After many, many years of fence-sitting about abortion, I finally found peace on the issue.

1. I do not believe in any moral authority, with exception of those found within.

2. I only have to make a decision for myself –*no one else.

And so, I can say with certainty, that I am pro-choice, even if that may or may not be the decision I would make personally.

Accounts like these reinforce that stance for me:
http://drjengunter.wordpress.com/201...safe-abortion/

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

But is it not so, that some do believe it literally?

you would be suprised how many christians believe the bible is a historical record of fact, we might not be able to prove where the universe came from but we can prove the world is more than 6000 years old, that there never was a noah's arc or a world wide flood.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by avb3

Gravity. Same reason nothing else floats away into space.

This references the lunar effect, but I was originally thinking of the increased rotational velocity, and the winds that would be caused. I have seen an estimate of 5000 mph winds. In any event life would have been shall we say somewhat harder at the supposed ages that dinosaurs lived in. http://creationscience.com/onlineboo...calNotes2.html

IIRC, it was because they did not know the thickness or granularity of the lunar dust in the target landing area. Seems like a cautious thing to do.

They calculated cosmic debris over 4 billion years would leave a fine dust many hundreds (?) of feet thick. What they actually found was a layer 2" thick; more consistent with an age of 5-10 000 years. Their numbers not mine.

Wikipedia has extensive and referenced discussions on this.

Of interest is:

A 2003 sequencing on the mitochondrial DNA of two Cro-Magnons (23,000-year-old Paglicci 52 and 24,720-year-old Paglicci 12) identified the mtDNA as Haplogroup N.[24] Haplogroup N is found among modern populations of Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, and represent the northern branch of the out-of-Africa migration of modern humans. Its descendant haplogroups are found among modern North African, Eurasian, Polynesian and Native American populations.[52]

6 feet tall, upright gait same brain capacity of homo-sapiens. In everyway identical to "modern man". Except by name. Right out of the popular evolutionary books of 30 yrs. ago. Imagine that, another invention.

Necroposy of a giraffe, with your favorite atheist you love to hate, Dawkins, asking questions, can be viewed on this National Geographic video.

Quite fascinating... if there was intelligent design, why is the nerve discussed take the route it does?

If it was dumb design how would it survive standing up quickly? It wouldn't and the long neck would have been abandoned, not engineered to work. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Ever hear of the least likely hypothesis?

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by avb3

Gravity. Same reason nothing else floats away into space.



IIRC, it was because they did not know the thickness or granularity of the lunar dust in the target landing area. Seems like a cautious thing to do.



Wikipedia has extensive and referenced discussions on this.

Of interest is:

A 2003 sequencing on the mitochondrial DNA of two Cro-Magnons (23,000-year-old Paglicci 52 and 24,720-year-old Paglicci 12) identified the mtDNA as Haplogroup N.[24] Haplogroup N is found among modern populations of Europe, the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia, and represent the northern branch of the out-of-Africa migration of modern humans. Its descendant haplogroups are found among modern North African, Eurasian, Polynesian and Native American populations.[52]

Necroposy of a giraffe, with your favorite atheist you love to hate, Dawkins, asking questions, can be viewed on this National Geographic video.

Quite fascinating... if there was intelligent design, why is the nerve discussed take the route it does?

"As an Otolaryngologist (ENT specialist), I can tell you that the recurrent laryngeal nerve, which exists in all mammals, follows its lengthy course because of embryological development that pertains to all animals. The recurrent laryngeal nerve serves a branchial arch that arises posterior to the one whose main arterial structure becomes the arch of the aorta on the left and the subclavian artery on the right. As a result, it must descend with the Vagus nerve, from which it branches off, into the chest before it can "recur" into the lower neck to reach the larynx. Since the basic body plan of the Giraffe is identical to all other mammals, save only that it has a very long neck, it should be no surprise that its recurrent laryngeal nerve follows the same course."

A little explanation I found.

[Tactical Lever]

There is a "sponge organ" which slows blood to and from the brain. If the giraffe did not have this, it would die just from bending down to have a drink of water.

This was no accident.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

Why am I not surprised that after leaving this thread for several days, I have returned to find it debating whether or not two of every species currently known to man could have fit on a large boat?

(Also, there are approximately 2000 tarantula species alone, which would have meant Noah was tending to 4000 individual tarantulas. Can you imagine representing each insect species?)

Right, 2 of every kind not every sub-species. With the long incubation time it may not even be needed to take an actual spider.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

There is a "sponge organ" which slows blood to and from the brain. If the giraffe did not have this, it would die just from bending down to have a drink of water.

This was no accident.

sure it wasn't an accident it's evolution, if the giraffe did die when it bent over it wouldn't exhist anymore, they would have all died, it's survival of the fittest.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by cover

Or the 20 000 known species in the oceans ?

Already in the water... no need.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Right, 2 of every kind not every sub-species. With the long incubation time it may not even be needed to take an actual spider.

you actually think snails from peru made it to the middle east to get on a boat?

do you realize how big this boat would have to be? do you realize how long it would have taken 1 man to build?

where did the extra water come from? where did it go when the flood ended?

are you saying the sub species never made it onto the boat? how did they survive to still be alive now? are you saying spiders breed after the flood to have spiders of other species because the other ones died in the flood? so many unexplainable questions.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

sure it wasn't an accident it's evolution, if the giraffe did die when it bent over it wouldn't exhist anymore, they would have all died, it's survival of the fittest.

Yes, ok. So what you are saying is for millions of years all of them died until one day one didn't because it suddenly grew a sponge of all things.....

Guess you haven't heard of the least likely hypothesis either.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Yes, ok. So what you are saying is for millions of years all of them died until one day one didn't because it suddenly grew a sponge of all things.....

Guess you haven't heard of the least likely hypothesis either.

you think one day god snapped his fingers and there were giraffes?

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Right, 2 of every kind not every sub-species. With the long incubation time it may not even be needed to take an actual spider.

There are no subspecies of tarantula. There are only species. About 2000 of them.

And even if someone (Noah?) puttered around the whole world to collect 2000 eggsacs representing 2000species, some would certainly hatch out before the trip was over. That's if they didn't all die, because they actually need to be constantly and gently turned.

And this is just tarantulas we're talking about...

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

you actually think snails from peru made it to the middle east to get on a boat?

No, you didn't read what was written.

do you realize how big this boat would have to be? do you realize how long it would have taken 1 man to build?

Yes, the dimensions are actually in the Bible. Noah did not build it himself (his sons helped), and yes it was a very large project.

where did the extra water come from? where did it go when the flood ended?

This was addressed in a previous link, to make it short, God did it. He was not specific how except it involved forming valleys and mountains. Probably a large scale tectonic shift.

are you saying the sub species never made it onto the boat? how did they survive to still be alive now? are you saying spiders breed after the flood to have spiders of other species because the other ones died in the flood? so many unexplainable questions.

That is what I'm saying. All the hundreds of dog types were bred from something most likely resembling wolves.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

you think one day god snapped his fingers and there were giraffes?

Something like that.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

No, you didn't read what was written.



Yes, the dimensions are actually in the Bible. Noah did not build it himself (his sons helped), and yes it was a very large project.



This was addressed in a previous link, to make it short, God did it. He was not specific how except it involved forming valleys and mountains. Probably a large scale tectonic shift.



That is what I'm saying. All the hundreds of dog types were bred from something most likely resembling wolves.

if you actually believe a story like noah's arc happened there is no help for you, there is no physical evidence of any arc ever exhisting, it's logistically impossible, the boat would have to be 1000 miles long and would take hundreds of years to build, there is no record of a world widfe flood by anybody but christians, the indians/chinese or mayanas never say anything about a flood in their historical books, plus alot of animals don't have a 40 day life span, it's a story and should be taken as such their is 0 proof of it happening.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Something like that.

so he is also responsible for cancer and hitler too?

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

There are no subspecies of tarantula. There are only species. About 2000 of them.

And even if someone (Noah?) puttered around the whole world to collect 2000 eggsacs representing 2000species, some would certainly hatch out before the trip was over. That's if they didn't all die, because they actually need to be constantly and gently turned.

And this is just tarantulas we're talking about...

The Bible uses the word "kind". By the wording I gather some sort of spider. From that point they could adapt and selectively breed depending on terrain and food that is available in the area.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

There are no subspecies of tarantula. There are only species. About 2000 of them.

And even if someone (Noah?) puttered around the whole world to collect 2000 eggsacs representing 2000species, some would certainly hatch out before the trip was over. That's if they didn't all die, because they actually need to be constantly and gently turned.

And this is just tarantulas we're talking about...

don't try and put facts into a religious argument, creationists do the same thing with facts as they do with the bible, they pick and choose what they want to belive and what facts they consider true, and they ignore the rest.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

if you actually believe a story like noah's arc happened there is no help for you, there is no physical evidence of any arc ever exhisting, it's logistically impossible, the boat would have to be 1000 miles long and would take hundreds of years to build, there is no record of a world widfe flood by anybody but christians, the indians/chinese or mayanas never say anything about a flood in their historical books, plus alot of animals don't have a 40 day life span, it's a story and should be taken as such their is 0 proof of it happening.

Actually a lot of cultures believe in a large scale flood (like the Babylonians) The ark would be large, at least 135 meters long, 22.5 meters wide and 13.5 meters high making it extremely stable; and huge.

If you didn't know where to look there would be no trace of the Titanic either.

And the Mayans probably aren't a good indication of what to believe, seeing as how they didn't survive...

Also 0 proof instant life from nothing. We can say evidence, but there is none of that either.

[Arachnodisiac]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

The Bible uses the word "kind". By the wording I gather some sort of spider. From that point they could adapt and selectively breed depending on terrain and food that is available in the area.

Oh. So they evolved after the flood. Got it.

I am checking out again. I'll be back when you guys reach exodus.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

don't try and put facts into a religious argument, creationists do the same thing with facts as they do with the bible, they pick and choose what they want to belive and what facts they consider true, and they ignore the rest.

"Noah's Ark was three stories high (Genesis 6:16). This made its total deck area equivalent to the area of about 36 lawn tennis courts. The average size of animal is about the size of an adult sheep. From this, scientists have calculated that the Ark could have held about 522 railroad stock cars full of sheep-sized animals. This is eight freight trains with 65 carriages on each!

And Noah didn't have to go and round up all the animals, because God sent them to him (Genesis 6:20). Noah merely had to open the Ark to the animals God sent to him.

Remember too that not every creature went on the Ark. Fish and other sea creatures didn't go on, and they account for a very large percentage of the world's animals. It was only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals that went on the Ark — and even many of them are very small, such as spiders, worms, beetles, etc.

When we realize that not every type of butterfly, snake, kangaroo, or whatever had to go on board — only the major “kinds” — we find that there might have been only about 35,000 animals on board.

So the question is not so much how did they all fit, but what did Noah use all the left-over room for?"

^^^^^^

Found a couple of factoids for you. Do the math. You may not think this is a credible story, but then again a few short centuries ago the earth was believed flat.

You also fail to comprehend that God had his hand in this. Impossible for me to build something like that and round up animals on my own.

I heard that they found evidence (some wreckage or something) supporting the ark? I will not try to pass that off as fact because I am not sure of it's veracity.

[avb3]

=Tactical Lever;1301654

When we realize that not every type of butterfly, snake, kangaroo, or whatever had to go on board — only the major “kinds” — we find that there might have been only about 35,000 animals on board.

Ahh, I see, the other species then evolved after the water receded. Cool!

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

"Noah's Ark was three stories high (Genesis 6:16). This made its total deck area equivalent to the area of about 36 lawn tennis courts. The average size of animal is about the size of an adult sheep. From this, scientists have calculated that the Ark could have held about 522 railroad stock cars full of sheep-sized animals. This is eight freight trains with 65 carriages on each!

And Noah didn't have to go and round up all the animals, because God sent them to him (Genesis 6:20). Noah merely had to open the Ark to the animals God sent to him.

Remember too that not every creature went on the Ark. Fish and other sea creatures didn't go on, and they account for a very large percentage of the world's animals. It was only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals that went on the Ark — and even many of them are very small, such as spiders, worms, beetles, etc.

When we realize that not every type of butterfly, snake, kangaroo, or whatever had to go on board — only the major “kinds” — we find that there might have been only about 35,000 animals on board.

So the question is not so much how did they all fit, but what did Noah use all the left-over room for?"

^^^^^^

Found a couple of factoids for you. Do the math. You may not think this is a credible story, but then again a few short centuries ago the earth was believed flat.

You also fail to comprehend that God had his hand in this. Impossible for me to build something like that and round up animals on my own.

I heard that they found evidence (some wreckage or something) supporting the ark? I will not try to pass that off as fact because I am not sure of it's veracity.

And, a few non sea-faring people(land lubers) might have believed that the earth was flat. The people who made their living on the big water knew better. Probably started as a "boogie-man theory" to keep other people away from their "honey holes" and to stop young men from wanting to go to sea to make their riches. Opps... just used common sense again...

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Actually a lot of cultures believe in a large scale flood (like the Babylonians) The ark would be large, at least 135 meters long, 22.5 meters wide and 13.5 meters high making it extremely stable; and huge.

If you didn't know where to look there would be no trace of the Titanic either.

And the Mayans probably aren't a good indication of what to believe, seeing as how they didn't survive...

Also 0 proof instant life from nothing. We can say evidence, but there is none of that either.

The Mayan civilization did not survive.... there are lots of Mayans around in Mexico and other central American areas.

From Wikipedia:

The Maya peoples never disappeared, neither at the time of the Classic period decline nor with the arrival of the Spanish conquistadores and the subsequent Spanish colonization of the Americas. Today, the Maya and their descendants form sizable populations throughout the Maya area and maintain a distinctive set of traditions and beliefs that are the result of the merger of pre-Columbian and post-Conquest ideas and cultures. Many Mayan languages continue to be spoken as primary languages today; the Rabinal Achí, a play written in the Achi language, was declared a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO in 2005.

[Skinnydipper]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

I have had to go through many books, especially the Bible to engage with you avb3. If anything this is a great exercise, for I find it is strengthening my faith. God Bless you avb3

I find myself engaged in reading the many conversations both of you and several other respectful debaters have taken the time to contribute. I am most certainly not even qualified to make a statement in this thread other than thanks to you guys for stimulating much thought process for many I imagine, including myself. Since this thread and the other similar one I have been engaged in many philisophical conversations with my co workers this week.

Thanks guys for your input!

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

I have had to go through many books, especially the Bible to engage with you avb3. If anything this is a great exercise, for I find it is strengthening my faith. God Bless you avb3

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Scien...nd-85550.shtml

I am trying to be the Light along your Way

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Skinnydipper

I find myself engaged in reading the many conversations both of you and several other respectful debaters have taken the time to contribute. I am most certainly not even qualified to make a statement in this thread other than thanks to you guys for stimulating much thought process for many I imagine, including myself. Since this thread and the other similar one I have been engaged in many philisophical conversations with my co workers this week.

Thanks guys for your input!

This has been a good debate; I doubt few minds are getting changed, but it is good to have respectful debate, even if one vehemently disagrees with the other side.

Those of faith will stick with that faith; most of us want more evidence then logic that takes a circular route.

After all, we would not want deer seasons be set just because we did or did not see where deer yarded up in winter, and base our conclusions only on that, would we?

That is called science.