Instinctive shooting and traditional style archery

[shootermcgavin]

I have an old fiber glass trad bow that has no sights nor anywhere to mount sights. I brought it into the Calgary Archery Center and had it all rigged up (string lol) as well as had some arrows measured/cut.

I have been taking some short range shots (20 yrds) and cant seem to be keeping it consistent.

I was hoping some of the guys here could give me some adice on some books that will help me become proficient with this bow without much practice around other people.

Or any other tips.

Thanks

[CNP]

Become the Arrow - by Byron Ferguson (Book or DVD)

was hoping some of the guys here could give me some adice on some books that will help me become proficient with this bow without much practice around other people

lots of practice required

[russ]

well to make a point,

there is no such thing as "instinctive" shooting. Period. It's a misnomer on the grandest scale. If shooting truly were instinctive, you wouldn't need to practice, you'd already know how to do it and you wouldn't need to practice it.

There, now I've gotten that off my chest and popped a blood vessel in nearly every trad archers forehead, I can rest peacefully!

[CNP]

Originally Posted by russ

well to make a point,

there is no such thing as "instinctive" shooting. Period. It's a misnomer on the grandest scale. If shooting truly were instinctive, you wouldn't need to practice, you'd already know how to do it and you wouldn't need to practice it.

There, now I've gotten that off my chest and popped a blood vessel in nearly every trad archers forehead, I can rest peacefully!

So true.........everybody aims somehow.........if you say you don't aim you must be shooting with a blindfold on lol. Just because you don't use "sights" doesn't mean you don't aim. You aim by using a consistent draw length and reference points (your fingers on your face, arrow tip,etc).

[shootermcgavin]

Thanks for the advice.

I didnt mean that I dont plan on practice but I meant I wont be around other archers to help with advice.

The only reason I called it instinctive shooting is because I heard others use the term. Although I seem to shoot alot better when I simply try to put the arrow in the target rather than thinking about my sight picture and trying to replicate.

Thanks

[russ]

ryan,

My comments are in jest, everyone calls it instinctive but it's not. ehuntr sums up what you need to do quite well.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Hmmmmmm.... I disagree, there is instinctive shooting. Catinthehat and Dave among others will recall that I shot instinctivly a number of years ago, very successfully.

I would call it more of a sight picture and knowing the flight of the arrow...and yes I could do it with any bow.....and no, it was not gap shooting. My average was high in the 270s with a 78# PSE Citation with 30% lettoff with high scores going into the high '80s.

A good anchor point is neccesary with any type of shooting as is a good mount and cheek-weld with long-gun shooting. For seven years I shot 2-300 shots a day and rarely missed any days...and yes I do have the trophies to back it up.

Shooting a longbow or recurve is the same, just no letoff. Catinthehat was at that time and still is hell on wheels with a longbow. If he drops by, I'm sure he will be able to give you some helpful tips.

[CNP]

[QUOTE][instinctive shooting/QUOTE]

I don't doubt any of your capabilities. Define "instinctive shooting" though. The problem is lots of guys say they don't aim...they shoot instinctively. Well............if you hit something you must have aimed at it or you're just lucky.

[ACKLEY ABE]

.......when you throw a baseball....do you aim it?

[CNP]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

.......when you throw a baseball....do you aim it?

Yes. You do. Your eyes look at the target, your arm guides the throw, the hand releases the ball all at the moment you decide to release it based on some knowledge of the distance, trajectory and your ability. It's aiming. And throwing a baseball and shooting a bow is not a similar activity....one being far more accurate than the other....because it is more easily aimed lol. You can't substitute a word like instinctive for a word like aiming. You must aim or you will not hit your target. It becomes more of a subconscious thing when your are well practised at this thing............but it is still aiming.

[Knotter]

ShooterMcG

The idea behind instictive shooting is that it's exactly as defined. It's less a mechanical process and more a momentary reaction. More shotgun and less rifle. The common mantra of an instinctive/trad shooter is "pick a spot". Frankly, this board is a lesser source on the topic. Try Tradgang or the leather wall. Fergusson's book IS good but he's a freak of nature.

I remember the throw from 3rd to 1st but I dont remember aiming. There was a process to learning. Eyes to glove, step to the target, drive your hip and extend etc. As you got better you just watched the glove and the ball would magically appear there without any thought.

[ACKLEY ABE]

Nicely defined....Knotter.

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by russ

There, now I've gotten that off my chest and popped a blood vessel in nearly every trad archers forehead, I can rest peacefully!

Russ, We're only one step removed from clubs and spears. Trad shooters only pop their forehead veins thinking about all that technology when someone hands them a modern compound. ...or when that osage self bow explodes on the first shot.

[DAVE]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

Hmmmmmm.... I disagree, there is instinctive shooting. Catinthehat and Dave among others will recall that I shot instinctivly a number of years ago, very successfully.

I would call it more of a sight picture and knowing the flight of the arrow...and yes I could do it with any bow.....and no, it was not gap shooting. My average was high in the 270s with a 78# PSE Citation with 30% lettoff with high scores going into the high '80s.

A good anchor point is neccesary with any type of shooting as is a good mount and cheek-weld with long-gun shooting. For seven years I shot 2-300 shots a day and rarely missed any days...and yes I do have the trophies to back it up.

Shooting a longbow or recurve is the same, just no letoff. Catinthehat was at that time and still is hell on wheels with a longbow. If he drops by, I'm sure he will be able to give you some helpful tips.

All true

[ACKLEY ABE]

lol......Thanks Dave.

[russ]

see what I mean.

Mention aiming to a trad and they freak out and deny that they do it.

In the compound world, it's called sub-conscious aiming, conscious release. (aka PUNCHING! )

Don't despair though wheel less children that fear technology, the current FITA world champ, Dietmar Trillus is a noteworthy trigger puncher in fact a few world records shudder at his release


So go ahead rename it what you want, disparage us wheeled souls - but the truth is, you ARE aiming. Then again, after watching some of you shoot I'm pretty sure you're not (aiming) judging by the amount of you actually hit. The term for it is actually "even a blind hog finds a root once in a while."

[DAVE]

[Mistagin]

I shoot a recurve bare bow, well, some of the time anyway.

As others have pointed out already, practice, practice, practice and practice some more. Establish and maintain consistent 'grip' on bow, anchor points on face, release.

Oh yeah, don't bother trying to analyze each shot, just shoot, shoot and shoot some more! And don't bother trying to hold at full draw for long periods of time, release fairly quickly. Also, when you get tired just set the bow aside for awhile, holding a non-let off bow is tiring, especially if it's got some poundage to it !

What I've found helpful is to practice at shorter ranges. I start out at 10 -15 yards before moving out to 20 and more.

Get advice and pointers from other trad archers, it's way different than shootin them new-fangled things with all them wheels and cables and balance weights and sights and drop-away rests and stuff

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

I shoot a recurve bare bow, well, some of the time anyway.

As others have pointed out already, practice, practice, practice and practice some more. Establish and maintain consistent 'grip' on bow, anchor points on face, release.

Oh yeah, don't bother trying to analyze each shot, just shoot, shoot and shoot some more! And don't bother trying to hold at full draw for long periods of time, release fairly quickly. Also, when you get tired just set the bow aside for awhile, holding a non-let off bow is tiring, especially if it's got some poundage to it !

What I've found helpful is to practice at shorter ranges. I start out at 10 -15 yards before moving out to 20 and more.

Get advice and pointers from other trad archers

Way to keep things moving constructively! Good advice.

[Cowboy Al]

Here's how I practice:
I concentrate on good form, mainly consistant hand grip and anchor point, and like has already been mentioned I shoot fairly quickly never "holding" for long.
I shoot at my intended target until my quiver is empty, moving either a few steps forward or back with each arrow. I do this with the intention of not letting myself use the previous arrow to make adjustments (but I suppose subconciously I do make adjustments after each) from a set distance. My thinking is that in a hunting situation I'm probably only going to get one shot and I'd better make it good. I don't use a rangefinder when shooting my longbow but I think my maximum effective range is somewhere around 30yards. Since I've employed this strategy my shooting has vastly improved (and I practice alot, at least 5 days a week sometimes everyday for weeks at a time).
I'm not sure if I use the "gap" method I just know when it feels like I'm on target and release...

Give it some time and a few practice sessions, you'll have a blast!

[bowhuntercam]

Cowboy Al, that is great advice. I shot my first bear this spring with a longbow. I practiced the same shot at 15 yards form a tree stand. My mind got used to that shot, but when hunting other game the situation cannot be controlled like that. I will change my practicing and incorporate your advice.

Thanks Cam

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by shootermcgavin

I have an old fiber glass trad bow that has no sights nor anywhere to mount sights. I brought it into the Calgary Archery Center and had it all rigged up (string lol) as well as had some arrows measured/cut.

I have been taking some short range shots (20 yrds) and cant seem to be keeping it consistent.

I was hoping some of the guys here could give me some adice on some books that will help me become proficient with this bow without much practice around other people.

Or any other tips.

Thanks

I've read many instructional books over the years, and G. Fred Asbell's is one of the best I ever seen for clear and easy to undrestand , step by step lessons for a book.

However, the very best is to get ye to yon archery shop and get some advice and lessons form a GOOD instinctive archer!
PM me if you would like to and we can talk a bit and maybe I can be of some help, however.....

Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Cowboy Al

Here's how I practice:
I concentrate on good form, mainly consistant hand grip and anchor point, and like has already been mentioned I shoot fairly quickly never "holding" for long.
I shoot at my intended target until my quiver is empty, moving either a few steps forward or back with each arrow. I do this with the intention of not letting myself use the previous arrow to make adjustments (but I suppose subconciously I do make adjustments after each) from a set distance. My thinking is that in a hunting situation I'm probably only going to get one shot and I'd better make it good. I don't use a rangefinder when shooting my longbow but I think my maximum effective range is somewhere around 30yards. Since I've employed this strategy my shooting has vastly improved (and I practice alot, at least 5 days a week sometimes everyday for weeks at a time).
I'm not sure if I use the "gap" method I just know when it feels like I'm on target and release...

Give it some time and a few practise sessions, you'll have a blast!

I really think that two of the worst inventions for traditional archers to use are the range finder and the chronograph - these are the DEVIL'S WORK!!
For one, we get so caught up in the speed trap thing that we tend to forget that instinctive archery is more about form and mental control that anything else, and for another, why would a person measure and check each distance you shoot at - what happens is you tend to start "point shooting ", or "post gap" , neither of which is very conducive to good instinctive archery when you are constantly doing either!

I used to shoot hundreds of arrows in a day when I was roving.
but when I got up I used to shoot one arrow every morning before work - ONLY ONE!
That way, I found that my mind was closer to being set up for just one shot.
When practising roving, I only shoot one arrow at each target I pick as well,
shooting several arrows at the same stump has some negatives to it, and here are a few.
The first is that you lose arrows because you cannot track your first arrow, which is a MUST in hunting or roving.
In hunting because you want to find the arrow, and check out the blood, and where it actually landed compared to where you aimed.
In roving, you are practising for the hunt , and you need to follow the arrow right into the target so your concentration stays with the shot -
"become the arrow " is not a new concept, it may have been coined by Maurice Thompson or some other notable many many years ago, but I do know that every excellent shooter, be they archer, rifle , pistol or shotgunner, uses the same philosophy!

Now, as far as "hell on Wheels with a longbow", well , I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good ONCE as I ever was!
My mind is likely even sharper and more honed as it used to be, but I cannot shoot as much as i used to , age creeps up on us all!
Cat

[russ]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

"become the arrow " is not a new concept, it may have been coined by Maurice Thompson or some other notable many many years ago

I would bet that phrase was borrowed from a kyudo master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2EnemzBpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUmFn86DsL0

[russ]

I should suggest one more thing, if you're shooting with a tab and having trouble improving. Try shooting without, the results may surprise you. If you find yourself shooting better, you'll either need to change to a glove or spend some money on a better tab. (which can cost more than some of the new fan dangled wheeled guys releases).

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by russ

I would bet that phrase was borrowed from a kyudo master.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA2EnemzBpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUmFn86DsL0

That would be interesting to research, I'm not sure if Thompson was even aware of Kyudo when he was alive!
The philosphy is the same however, be it knife throwing, darts , breaking boards or what have you!
Cat

[petew]

Watch the Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP27RDLHe5A

Rick does a good job explaining instinctive vs aiming.

Pete

[russ]

pete, that aiming technique isn't much different than what most wheelies do or should be doing. We can't really see the peep, the pin & the target either. I didn't spend over $200 on a .75 dioptre lens & housing to look at my $3 fiber optic. I bought it so I could see the x ring better. So just because your aiming point is fuzzy doesn't mean you're not aiming.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by russ

pete, that aiming technique isn't much different than what most wheelies do or should be doing. We can't really see the peep, the pin & the target either. I didn't spend over $200 on a .75 dioptre lens & housing to look at my $3 fiber optic. I bought it so I could see the x ring better. So just because your aiming point is fuzzy doesn't mean you're not aiming.

X2! what you are shooting at HAS to be the thing focused on, and that would be .....
THE TARGET!! You should be concentrating on the on the TARGET!!
I don't know how many times I have said this to people who think they should be looking at the sights!

A person can't focus on all three, the target must be the one to focus on, and it is also what you need to be focused on when shooting a scoped rifle, pistol with irons, match rifle with irons, darts, javelin, or a feakin' SLINGSHOT!!!
Some people just don't or won't get it......
There, I feel much better now!
Cat