When is too big?

[RedFisher]

Ok... so my buddy and i are having alittle argument over rifle calibre and deer hunting. I personally shoot a 7mm rem mag and have on a few different days shot a deer with a 300 win mag while hunting for elk... This year he went out and shot 2 does with his 7mm mag. using a 150 grain bullet... he comes back complaining that its way too big for deer and that when he clipped one in the shoulder that it destroyed it... well my instant responce after seeing the pictures that a 22-250 is too big for killing a bambi never mind his 7mm .... and yes i know you cant use a 22-250 for hunting deer...

But down to my question ive shot deer for years with my 7mm win mag shooting from a 145 - 160 grn bullet. is this overkill or is shot placement just the key... Like he wants to drop down to a 243 ... he wont even consider a 270... What do you use and what do you think am i the one overkilling or is he just out to lunch... OO yah let me also say that i use a 7mm yes for the knockdown power but also because i have taken shots well over 400 yrds with it... and at that yardage a 100 grn bullet just doesnt do it for me...

[hmk154]

I have shot Deer with my .325wsm while hunting moose, and have done minimal destruction. I think the .325 is overkill for sure but I think bullet selection and shot placement are more critical if you want to minimize damage to meat. 7mm is just fine for deer in my opinion. If you hand load there is lots of bullet selection and loads to play with and just pick the shot as best you can to destroy vitals and not meat. I have had good success with frontal chest shots and neck shots. I'm sure Ill catch some flack for saying that but whatever

[Redfrog]

I've shot a ton of beasties with my 7mm. Not one of them was TOO dead.

I've seen coyotes D E S T R O Y E D by a 204 and others dead from the lead of a 338 that had very little fur damage.

Use whatever is legal and works for you. 243 is plenty to kill a deer. If he's happy good for him. I have a buddy who is married to the devil's sister, but he kinda likes her so whatever trips your trigger.

I had a client shoot a mule deer at 180 yards dead center facing him. The deer dropped like a sack of spuds and we recovered the bullet under the hide at the back of the right rear leg. It had traveled full length, destroying everything in it's path and ended up damaging less than a handful of meat in the hip where the bullet finally varied from it's path just a few cms.

[omega50]

Hmm I guess 458 Norma Win Mag is overkill?

As long as the reverberation at the shot relases joy in your heart and makes you smile a big **** eating grin

[stinkynuts]

to me this thread comes down to bullet type a nosler ballistic tip or partion will stop and disapate all the energy into the animal and destroy anything close to it or on the other end good hitting power but way less damage as far as i am concerd would be a boat tail or pointed soft point witch will jusy mushroom out and still kill well but do way less damage just my opinion boys

[duffy4]

I don't like to ruin too much meat. But I do like to make a good clean shot and kill and recover the animal.

You can kill a fly with a chop-stick or a sledge hammer. But a fly swatter is a better tool to use.

Same with deer. There are lots (pretty well all) of cartridges you can kill deer with but there are several that are probably somewhat better tools than the smallest (.22) and the largest (.458).

The bullet and how it reacts (construction and speed) when it hits the deer is the biggest factor with ruined meat.

[KegRiver]

I worked as a big game guide for a few seasons.
I saw a lot of different people shoot a lot of game with a lot of different calibers.
All this lead me to one conclusion. No caliber is too big or too small for the animals you are after.
But a gun can be to big for the shooter. If you are afraid of the gun, it's not the gun for you.
I watched more then once as one of our favorite clients, a huge man who carried a Mag-na-ported 375 H&H magnum, miss shot after shot.
One day I was looking directly at him when he fired that cannon. He flinched like he had been stung by a bee. The gun kicked like a 30-06 but his mind was telling him it would kick like a 375 so he flinched. And he missed.

I have watched many an old trapper drop game with small calibers from a 22mag to a 25-35, and never miss a shot. Almost every shot was a one shot kill.

Yeah I know that a 22mag is illegal for big game. I didn't know it back then and I don't think the shooter did either. The Moose clearly didn't know it, it dropped on the second shot.

I would recommend any mid size caliber 243, 6mm 6.5x55 are all good deer guns in my opinion. But if you like the 375H&H and can shoot well with it, by all means, use it.

[KegRiver]

I should add. Under no circumstance do I recommend using such a small caliber. And would not even if it were not against the law.

[Bassett]

Its simple, go big or go home.

[Redfrog]

Good points Keg River. I've seen guys with more gun than they could handle. It is not a pretty sight.

[Cal]

x2 it all depends on what your comfortable with. Personaly I think the 7mm mag is on the big side of ideal for a deer cartridge but by no means too big. I use a .270 for everything these days but I'd have to say my favorite deer cartridge is the 30-30. Takes deer out to 200 yards and in a pinch it will down a moose at 100, so pretty much 98.4% of the animals I've shot. Not that it proves anything but the quickest kill I ever had was with a 30-30, I dont think that deer even heard the shot it died so fast.

[RedFisher]

ok... yah i guess i can see where you all are comming from... maybe its just me then see i do reload my own and for the past couple yrs ive been shooting 145 grn nosler... and i personaly love my gun... hell the first deer i ever shot was with a 7mm rem mag... anyways i know how it shoots i can shoot an elk deer or moose with it from 80 yrs to 800 yrds with it i guess its all comes down to how conferatble you are with your gun... hell ive personaly flintched shooting a 30-06 yet with my 300 win mag i dead on...

[RedFisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I worked as a big game guide for a few seasons.
I saw a lot of different people shoot a lot of game with a lot of different calibers.
All this lead me to one conclusion. No caliber is too big or too small for the animals you are after.
But a gun can be to big for the shooter. If you are afraid of the gun, it's not the gun for you.
I watched more then once as one of our favorite clients, a huge man who carried a Mag-na-ported 375 H&H magnum, miss shot after shot.
One day I was looking directly at him when he fired that cannon. He flinched like he had been stung by a bee. The gun kicked like a 30-06 but his mind was telling him it would kick like a 375 so he flinched. And he missed.

I have watched many an old trapper drop game with small calibers from a 22mag to a 25-35, and never miss a shot. Almost every shot was a one shot kill.

Yeah I know that a 22mag is illegal for big game. I didn't know it back then and I don't think the shooter did either. The Moose clearly didn't know it, it dropped on the second shot.

I would recommend any mid size caliber 243, 6mm 6.5x55 are all good deer guns in my opinion. But if you like the 375H&H and can shoot well with it, by all means, use it.

Yah i know what you mean i was just at the range a couple weeks ago. I seen a guy break out three guns a 300 win mag, 7mm rem mag and a 270... buddy was hitting the gong at 300 yrds every shot with his 270 he breaks out his 7mm couldnt hit the target for the life of him.... stopped for a while and started chatting with him then he asked me to give him some pointers...as i was also shooting a 7mm and getting inch and a half grouping at 300 yrds..ok i watched him shoot a few rounds .... watched every shot and i seen him flintch like no tomorro... ok told him to stop and shoot his .300 as his 7 was getting hot allready.... boom boom boom... dead center no flintch.... i finally convinced him that its not the gun he should be affraid of hell he shot a 300 win mag no issue....if it got through im not sure but you've gotta be confterable with your gun...

[South west trappin RG]

I have used a 270 for all my game 130 grain untill this year I bought a new sako light hunting rifel in 300wsm. After shooting a bunch the 180 grain shoots the best groups for me. I had 5 full days in the mountains looking for sheep and elk with no real chance for a shot at either i thought i would bring it on my antolope hunt three weeks ago and it had its first kill. 355 yards the goat was sleeping and it never got up. Right shot placement is the key to not wrecking any meat, the only meat that was destroyed was the heart and some ribbs. I put 75 shells though my new gun before i even took it to the field. My 270 has wrecked allot of both front sholders of an elk on an off shot and the lead never left the elks hide. I have also had allot of exelent shots with the 270 that never had me cutting clotted blood meat out of any elk or deer.

[Rockymtnx]

Is there ever such a thing as to big? Its all about bullet design and bullet placement.
I guarantee you that I can make more of a mess with high expansion type of bullet out of a .243 than I could with a high weight retention bullet out of a .300.
A .243 shooting Nosler Ballistic Tip in a deer's shoulder will make a lot more mess than a .300 shooting Nosler E-Tips.

When you can't shoot it off your shoulder, you've crossed the threshold of too big!

[6.5 shooter]

If the gun hurts you,more than the critter, it is to big.

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

When you can't shoot it off your shoulder, you've crossed the threshold of too big!

I'll add to that T.J.,, When you can't comfortably shoot and site it in it's to big..

This I say from personal experience. About 9 years ago I bought a Remy 700 BDL .300 R.U.M. Damn beautiful gun. Has all the bells and whistles. 26" barrel. 3 x 9 x 50mm VxIII Leupold on it and all the weight to go with it.. After 8 years of shooting that cannon I quit,, no really I quit it.. After all that time I still do not know where exactly that gun shoots.. It shoots well.. Well enough that I have taken probably a half dozen moose, same amount of deer with it but still I am not sure where it shoots. Why,, because that damn gun hurts to shoot.. Now I am no wuss when it comes to shooting guns.. Put thousands upon thousands of rounds through many type of rifle but just hate that gun.. Last year as some may recall I took up a 30.06 that I have. Put a scope on it and started hunting with it. This gun I can shoot.. By shoot I mean tuck it into the shoulder and shoot comfortably. This is the first gun that I can say that I have dialed in. Over the last 2 years I have put probably 10 boxes of shells through the barrel,, for me thats a lot. I have this gun dialed in. Last fall its the only gun I packed. This fall when the boy and I went moose hunting,, I left the .300 at home and took the 30.06.. I am damn tired of packing that old cannon,, really I am..

T.J. I must say that you had a big influence on my decision on leaving the big gun at home. Your thoughts and writings on here and other places really got me to thinking,, its not the size of the hole that kills but rather the hole that kills.. Regardless of the size of gun,, if a person is comfortable enough to shoot a gun at any range the size of gun is irrelevant.. Now this is not to say that some calibers may offer more forgiveness in range estimation at longer ranges but their killing capabilities at said ranges are insignificant.. If you put a hole in an animals lungs it will die.. Regardless if that hole came from a 300 Ultra or a .270 at 500 yrds..The animal will die.. The trick is to get good with what gun you are shooting.. Goes back to our old days of popping chickens in the head at 50 yrds with the old Cooyes doesn't it ??

[ishootbambi]

keg, sheep and walleyes are bang on. this is one of the simplest questions asked on this forum. there is no such thing as "more" dead. the answer is that the gun is too big when you cant shoot it accurately.

[Crossfire]

I dont think it is overkill i find that it has alot to do with what type of bullet your shooting and also where you place your shot

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

keg, sheep and walleyes are bang on. this is one of the simplest questions asked on this forum. there is no such thing as "more" dead. the answer is that the gun is too big when you cant shoot it accurately.

Yup, ya can't argue with that logic!
I hate big guns , not because i can't shoot them for one or two rounds accurately, but because I can't shoot them for MORE than one or two rounds accurately!
I can kill stuff just as easily with much smaller cartridges, but it would be fun to hunt with the 9.3 and the .375 again - of course they are both sold, just so i wouldn't be tempted!
Cat

[firegod74]

I'ma one gun wonder type. I would love to have more, but can't afford it. Also since when I leave the house I don't know if my deer moose or elk is going to walk out first, so I don't take a small gun deer hunting, I take the gun that is going to kill anything I should choose to shoot at any range I would be comfortable to shoot.
Right now that gun is a 300wsm. More than enough for deer, but if I blow the ribs out of a deer, I'm not too concerned. They are too tallowy anyway. I have heard shot placement so many times on this site that I think it is echoing in my head. While I fully agree with it, I think that just as important is whether to pull the triggger or not due to the animals position or movement. Risking a shot on a moving deer that ends up hitting him in the hind quarter is going to damage a ton of meat no matter how small the caliber.

[Pathfinder76]

The 7MM Rem Mag is hardly "big" and the .243 is hardly "small"

Watch the top video and tell me your under gunned on Deer with a 243. It's the bullet, then the bullet, followed by the bullet.

http://www.greybullprecision.com/ind...id=9&Itemid=19

[Private Ear]

Originally Posted by firegod74

I think that just as important is whether to pull the triggger or not due to the animals position or movement. Risking a shot on a moving deer that ends up hitting him in the hind quarter is going to damage a ton of meat no matter how small the caliber.

Here Here. You can't have good shot placement if your target won't cooperate!

[bonecollector10]

I shot my muley buck last year with my 7mm 150 gr. and the muley ran 100 yards double lunged, I shot my spring black bear this year with a 243 and he dropped in his tracks, shot him in the head tho. If you can handle a bigger gun id say 7mm, imagine if that buck of a lifetime came out at 400 yards.

GO BIG!

[Fisherpeak]

Brno 30.06 and a Browning lever .243 for me.Ive taken everything from Grizz and moose and elk with the .06 and ton of deer with the levergun.Anything bigger is too painfull for me to get good at.Just like Catnthehat said.The 2 I use now are wickedly effective.This year so far is 2 elk(1 mine ,1 the wifes) one shot bang flop each.No sense playing with rifles you can`t handle.Screws up your marksmanship.I figure I owe it to the aqnimal I`m harvesting to make it as quik and clean as possible.
Besides,if you have a big dick you don`t need a .338

[hmk154]

Besides,if you have a big dick you don`t need a .338[/QUOTE]

Thats weird cause I'm hung like a horse and have a .500 Nitro

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by bonecollector10

imagine if that buck of a lifetime came out at 400 yards.

GO BIG!

If that Buck of a lifetime came out in front of a wolf, I wouldn't put odds on the Deer. So far as I know, Wolves don't carry 7mm s

Hunt like a Wolf and you don't need a cannon.

But really, if you like the gun, all the more power to you. You might make the shot.
I hunt with a thuty thuty most of the time. So I would simply get closer.
It may not work every time, but it works often enough.

Only now I guess I'll have to start looking for Deer of a lifetime. The last one went to West Virginia. My best buds family wanted it, how could I say no.
Sides, there are more where that one came from.

Maybe next time I'll wish I had a 7mm or maybe even a 50 cal.
Life can be like that.

[Dick284]

I'll agree that your comfort should trump that of the deer.

Also look a bullet construction, impact velocity and shot placement. If your a shoulder shooter (lord knows why) 140gr. Ballistic Tips are likely going to drive you nuts. While something like a GMX, TSX or other mono constucted bullet may change your mind.

I've seen 200gr. bullets out of .30 cal magnums do less damage than a 95 gr bullet from a 243Win. Mind you the 200gr. .30cal was a Partition, while the 95gr. 243 was a ballistic tip. the impact velocity of the 200gr bullet was about 2750fps, while the 95gr bullet was more like 2950fps.

[open sights]

i use a .303 british, i shot a deer at 200 yards this year and since i had open sights my bullet was off a bit and wasted some meat, but if i had better shot placement the wouldn't have been much waste, and i was shooting a 180 grain because i was actaully hunting moose but on thre way back to camp after some unsuccesful calling i shot this deer. my dad always uses 150 grain 30'06, and same with my uncle, but sometimes my uncle will go with hiss 300 mag and there is practically no ruined meet (but he is a crazy good shot). so i think 7mm is too big a calibre. As far as i know a 30'06, which is a .30 cal, is 7.62 mm, and its a classic deer rifle, so away at the deer with the 7mm