Breaker Didn't Trip, No Power

Trochu · #1 12-11-2019, 09:17 AM

Probably going to call in an electrician for this one, as I try to avoid most things electrical, but in the meantime.....

I have a detached garage in which I work on my projects. Was out there on Saturday and everything seemed as it should. Went out there last night and the motion sensor light didn't go one. Thought I just needed to change out a bulb. Opened the door, flicked the light switch, nothing, tried the radio, nothing, overhead door, another light, nothing. Went back into the house to check the breaker and it was "On". Reset it, went back to the garage, still nothing. I think the only thing that would have been running in my absence was the furnace, which has been as is for years. I didn't do anything as nobody was out there since it went from working to not. Anyone on here experienced no power with the breaker on? Possibly a bad breaker or could it be shorting out somewhere without tripping the breaker (that seems unlikely to me)? I haven't seen a GFCI anywhere and don't think any of the plugs have one.

Indy · #2 12-11-2019, 09:19 AM

Doesn't the garage have its own sub-panel - I didn't see you mention that. It could have tripped in the garage?

Trochu · #3 12-11-2019, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indy

Doesn't the garage have its own sub-panel - I didn't see you mention that. It could have tripped in the garage?

You are correct. I checked those as well, none had tripped but I reset them all anyway, no change. Took both panels off, garage and house, looking for a stray wire or something amiss, everything looked as it should.

dodgeboy1979 · #4 12-11-2019, 09:51 AM

overhead or below ground wire feeding your garage? Did you test the wires coming into the garage sub panel for power?

urban rednek · #5 12-11-2019, 10:02 AM

Gotta ask- did you reset the breakers properly, or just turn them Off-On? If a breaker has tripped, the handle must be pushed hard past the Off position to relatch the mechanism. Some brands of breakers are notorious for not showing as tripped.
If the breakers are OK, you will have to start testing connections with a meter to find the problem. Probably time to call professional help if you are not comfortable working with electricity.

Trochu · #6 12-11-2019, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodgeboy1979

overhead or below ground wire feeding your garage? Did you test the wires coming into the garage sub panel for power?

Underground.

I did not, don't own a non-contact voltage tester. I own a multi-meter, but was a bit hesitate to start poking around with it.

MyAlberta · #7 12-11-2019, 10:13 AM

It will be a simple matter of testing with a meter. If you are not comfortable with that, call an electrician. I’ve worked with big power panels over the years, and still get the chills whenever power is present. Play safe.

nd4spd · #8 12-11-2019, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trochu

Underground.

I did not, don't own a non-contact voltage tester. I own a multi-meter, but was a bit hesitate to start poking around with it.

Where are you located? If you're in the south end of Calgary I could swing by with my meter and have a look.

shoot me a text if you want 403-828-three four six seven

Shale

RBI · #9 12-11-2019, 10:20 AM

I'm sure there'll be a/some sparky's on here to help soon ,

But in the meantime , here's my 2 cents...

A couple of months back, a neighbour lady ( handi-capped ... stroke ) called and said the power is out in part of her basement, and could I come to have a look .

Sure , no problem , I figured it was likely a tripped breaker, and I'd work from there .

Breakers and all looked good , no sign of cause of power issue .

So starts the task of checking thorugh the basement , to what/where works and doesn't work .

I isolated it to an area that made sense for it to be one circuit .

Then figured the logical direction/path of wiring .

opened up the first receptacle on said circuit and found the problem ...

one of the hot leads appeared to have not been in under the screw properly, was more on the plastic ( hard to really describe ) , but the point being , that it lost contact with power source and therefore , anything else beyong on that circuit , had to power to it .

I replaced the receptacle , and all is fine .

So that is my dealing with ...no power, but no tripped breaker .

For you , I assume you need to check , starting with the main panel breaker that feeds the garage subpanel, and work forward from there ...

elkhunter11 · #10 12-11-2019, 10:30 AM

One thing that can fool people, is that some breakers will not actually reset, even though they appear to. They trip as you actually reset them, and you don't realize that they are even tripped. You really need a meter to troubleshoot the problem.

ghostguy6 · #11 12-11-2019, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trochu

Underground.

I did not, don't own a non-contact voltage tester. I own a multi-meter, but was a bit hesitate to start poking around with it.

You can get some good ones for around $25 at home depot. Probably less if you have a Rona near you that is closing. They are worth having even if your not comfortable performing any electrical work yourself.

Where are you located? I have one you can borrow if your local.

Trochu · #12 12-11-2019, 11:31 AM

Thanks for the offers guys, just north of Red Deer though, so not terribly practical. Going to do a bit more poking around this evening and see what I come up with.

zabbo · #13 12-11-2019, 11:55 AM

Do you have an outside plug on the garage? If so, it should be a GFI. Make sure that has not tripped. Often there are more devices downstream and they will not be live it the GFI has tripped. Much cheaper than a service call.

fishtank · #14 12-11-2019, 12:14 PM

try turning all the breakers off, then flip them all back on .

Twisted Canuck · #15 12-11-2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trochu

Thanks for the offers guys, just north of Red Deer though, so not terribly practical. Going to do a bit more poking around this evening and see what I come up with.

Well, poke carefully. If I was local I'd come have a look at it, but GP is a bit far. If it's an older panel, especially if it's an older Federal panel, to reset some of the older breakers they do have to be pushed past the off detente point, before flipping back to the On position. It is possible also that the breaker itself is bad (it happens), simple check with a meter.

Anyway, some local sparky can probably figure it for you, or if you want you can PM me and I can talk you through some basic trouble shooting this evening as well by phone..TC

horsepower · #16 12-11-2019, 12:34 PM

You could turn off all the breakers in garage panel, basically everything downstream of the house breaker. At this point there should not be any power drawing from the system. Reset the house breaker (first breaker in the system).

A) If the house breaker resets then the problem could lie somewhere downstream from the garage panel. At this point I would turn each breaker on, one at a time, and see if one breaker will trip the system. Hopefully you can isolate the cause of the house breaker tripping.

B) If the house does not reset then the problem could lie between the 2 panels.

Does the garbage sub panel have its own main breaker?

AndrewM · #17 12-11-2019, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zabbo

Do you have an outside plug on the garage? If so, it should be a GFI. Make sure that has not tripped. Often there are more devices downstream and they will not be live it the GFI has tripped. Much cheaper than a service call.

Definitely check the GFI. Sometimes they are all connected to one and usually not where you would expect. My front yard resets at the back of my house. My main floor bathroom resets in the upstairs bathroom.

Trochu · #18 12-11-2019, 07:10 PM

Alright got my will done up this afternoon, okay, not really, but I've texted some guys, got some PMs, good advise on here, watched the odd youtuve video, and am going in with the multi-meter. Starting on the house breaker first...

Supergrit · #19 12-11-2019, 07:22 PM

Go to electrical supply store get a fluke non contact pen style meter they definitely come in handy. Like others said some time breaker are tricky to reset. You said the garage has sub panel my best guess would be the feeder breaker from your house or were the feeder connects to your sub panel.

Trochu · #20 12-11-2019, 07:25 PM

Panel in house, breaker off, 9.7V on the black/right. Breaker on, 123 V on the black/right and 123 V on the red/left. Off to the garage...

Trochu · #21 12-11-2019, 07:50 PM

Something really weird is going on. I pulled the panel off the box in the garage, tested all four breakers, 0V across the board. Pulled the cover off the junction box, which feeds the breaker box, and it seems it's being fed by two blacks, a red, a blue, and a red. All connections were tested, all dead.

The kicker is the black wire, on the left side of the photo, not connected to anything gives 123V.

The breaker bar is connected to the black wire not connected to anything sticking out of the junction box.

How in the world did anything work if the 123V isn't connect to anything and the one feeding the breaker bar is just a loose wire in the junction box? Hard to see in the photo, but the wire sticking out of the junction box does look likes it's been arcing, has a melted tip, kind of like a welding wire, but there is nothing in there it could have been connected to, everything else is color to color and tight.

Getzcold · #22 12-11-2019, 07:57 PM

Be sure to be checking to the neutral not the ground will mess you up if you have a open neutral. If your neutral has potential voltage (your meter reads a number)your neutral is open. Kinda sounds like you are losing power between the house and the sub panel. I’m just a fridgee though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Trochu · #23 12-11-2019, 08:19 PM

Well, I figured it out. But that crackle and shower of sparks sure got the ol' heart beating!

I decided it was impossible that the black wire feeding the panel on Saturday was now not connected to anything. I started pulling all the wires out of the junction box, thinking I had to have missed on at the back that I simply needed to connect and away I'd go and crackle, shower of sparks. I thought someone was heading this direction with an above post, but the conduit is metal, wasn't cut properly and has a sharp edge, and repeated frost heaving action over the years must have wore through the wire's plastic coating till it arced, which melted it in half. Hence a loose wire not connected to anything in the junction box feeding the panel. The live, black wire is about 1/2" down in the metal conduit, I started pulling wires here and there, and it revealed it's position. Reconnecting the two could be tricky though....

I think I've got it figured out now, but really do appreciate all the offers guys!

jip911 · #24 12-11-2019, 08:23 PM

Really difficult to follow the routing with just a couple pics. Looks like a handyman special.
By the looks of it your feed from the house is running to the JB and then from the JB to the sub panel?
Based on your description of the house wiring you have 220 feeding the garage but are only using one leg to the sub panel?

If this is the case you should have 2 hot leads in the JB.

Please confirm if what I see is correct?

J

Trochu · #25 12-11-2019, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jip911

Really difficult to follow the routing with just a couple pics. Looks like a handyman special.
By the looks of it your feed from the house is running to the JB and then from the JB to the sub panel?
Based on your description of the house wiring you have 220 feeding the garage but are only using one leg to the sub panel?

If this is the case you should have 2 hot leads in the JB.

Please confirm if what I see is correct?

J

Handy man special is correct. Believe the homeowner built it himself in the late '60s/early '70's. You lost me a little bit, but I believe you are correct, two hot black wires running into the JB, which feed the sub panel, but only the one hot is connected to the breakers, the other is just stubbed in the panel.

jip911 · #26 12-11-2019, 08:32 PM

Again, hard to tell from the pics but if you are only using 110v in the garage and only one hot leg, you could de-energize the broken leg (inside the house panel) and use the other leg that is currently not connected in its place on the sub panel.

Trochu · #27 12-11-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jip911

Again, hard to tell from the pics but if you are only using 110v in the garage and only one hot leg, you could de-energize the broken leg (inside the house panel) and use the other leg that is currently not connected in its place on the sub panel.

Should that be as easy as disconnecting one of the wires on the main panel (in the house), turning the breaker on, going out the the sub-panel (garage) with the multi-meter to see if it still has power?

jip911 · #28 12-11-2019, 09:06 PM

The spark show should have tripped the breaker already letting you know which one to disconnect.... Sent you a pm as it appears you have other code violations happening in your sub panel...

trophybook · #29 12-11-2019, 11:15 PM

Step 1. Turn off breaker feeding said garage.
Step 2. Disconnect wire off said beaker
Step 3. Terminate wire off breaker to ground
Step 4. Check for continuity between black and ground in garage
Step5. If no continuity on meter wire broken
Step 6. If continuity is shown and volts are not 116-123v wire is damaged/broken but still touching
Step 8. If panel is federal pioneer or stablok or Westinghouse check breaker with meter to verify working order

Re do your sub panel and no splices in said panel and use 40/40s for wires